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    1. Top | #41
      NextLevel is offline
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      Like I said ERT has a lot of fans. Ultimately if you enjoy his stuff and to be fair the most silly part is the Chinese secrets nonsense, then that is okay. And if you learned a lot from him good for you. But the highest level player I know in person who likes ERT is BRS. And for me that says something. I am past the point when I go through the misleading details in his video because sometimes people are smart enough to ignore them or play at a level where it doesn't really matter they just need some inspiration to play better.
      Last edited by NextLevel; 01-15-2020 at 11:53 AM.
      Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

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    3. Top | #42
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wister View Post
      It's seems the reproach against ERT is more about how he does his video and he explains things than about the technical explanations he gives ?

      Personally i like these high level principle (meaning 'general principle') that give more than a sum of details to add up. But indeed sometimes he doesn't explain how you should concretely do it. That said, i find he give a lot of useful concrete details

      About the workload, i think it may take more times to add up a lot of different footage than taking a 10mn one shot video and post it right away. I mean it don't look like an easy solution

      But i agree his words against westerns coachs are even a bit weird, just why so much ? Also indeed it's possible that he is an 'internet expert'. I mean the guy that sound like an expert because he have read all the theory that you can find on internet but haven't applied it. Personally i've been really helped by his advice so it tend to trust what he's saying
      I would agree with almost all of this. If you find value in what he presents, I think it is fine. I would say "general principles" or "Fundamental Principles" and not call them "high level" principles. But that is because I don't think that they are high level principles at all. To me they seem like basics....FUNDAMENTALS.

      From the technique standpoint, I don't hear much he says I disagree with. Just everything I hear him say that no Western coaches know and that are "Chinese Secrets" are things I have heard from multiple WESTERN COACHES. And I have to be honest, I can't recall anything I have heard him present that I have not had a Western coach explain better and more appropriately to my actual needs as a player

      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      Like I said ERT has a lot of fans. Ultimately if you enjoy his stuff and to be fair the most silly part is the Chinese secrets nonsense, then that is okay. And if you learned a lot from him good for you. But the highest level player I know in person who likes ERT is BRS. And for me that says something. I am past the point when I go through the misleading details in his video because sometimes people are smart enough to ignore them or play at a level where it doesn't really matter they just need some inspiration to play better.
      I agree with everything NextLevel has explained about ERT. I just wanted to use a concrete example.

      Nothing about technique in the video I posted is WRONG. All of the info on technique is sound. I think he is leaving out important key information about touch, feeling and how you contact the ball....subtle details that really help you maximize spin. But all of what he says is fine.

      He just has lifted footage of other players from off the internet and added to that footage that someone else made, his own information on technique even though the footage was not of people working on the technique he is describing.

      He could literally use any clip of ML looping to explain every fundamental principle that he always talks about.

      But when someone has not heard this information, I think it is fine for them to hear it and go: "Oh, that was helpful to me."

      And if you look at the mechanics of a baseball swing, all the things ERT talks about on FH are there. Using legs, loading back leg, shifting hips, core rotation, break of wrist and elbows, tightening grip on impact. A bat or racket stroke is a bat or racket stroke. There are simple differences that go from sport to sport. Like in Tennis you hit more directly even though you spin. In baseball you hit much more directly and are not trying to spin the ball even though you can hit inside out or contact the outside of the ball depending on the shot you are making. In TT, there is obviously much more of a focus on spinning and tangential contact. And the stroke is much smaller, and faster than in tennis or baseball. But the fundamentals are nevertheless very closely related.



      Note the weight transfer, the core rotation, the break of the wrist, the timing of the hips with the contact of the ball.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 01-15-2020 at 03:21 PM.
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    5. Top | #43
      netdriver is offline
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      i know two korean channels that make table tennis lessons on youtube. imo they're quite underrated for the great content they put out, so i'm going to recommend the channels to y'all.

      bbaerong-e yorong-e TV
      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClE...lkh05XYsAroz1Q

      Sejun Table Tennis Club
      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoN...able_polymer=1

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    7. Top | #44
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by netdriver View Post
      i know two korean channels that make table tennis lessons on youtube. imo they're quite underrated for the great content they put out, so i'm going to recommend the channels to y'all.

      bbaerong-e yorong-e TV
      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClE...lkh05XYsAroz1Q

      Sejun Table Tennis Club
      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoN...able_polymer=1
      Those are the Korean channels.i was referring to. Lots of really good stuff if you understand where they are coming from.

      There is also a guy/channel called TTNuri who does what ERT does but has a very different and far more humble approach.

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    9. Top | #45
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      Interesting opinions about ERT, i mainly agree with what have been said so i have not much to add finally

      About the difference between western coach and asian coach, i find there is really a gap. I watch some Koreans videos (that's the most translated it seems) and it just a whole new level of details and insights. A bit sad that the translation aren't very very good

      That said, there are some very good western coach on Youtube (Eli baraty, Brett clark etc..)

      Two channels i like :

      박PD : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIQJdX7czzLhYGxj-VSZOBg


      TTNuri 탁구누리 : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9kSgD6xzwFYwmPT4wquTdQ

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    11. Top | #46
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wister View Post
      Interesting opinions about ERT, i mainly agree with what have been said so i have not much to add finally

      About the difference between western coach and asian coach, i find there is really a gap. I watch some Koreans videos (that's the most translated it seems) and it just a whole new level of details and insights. A bit sad that the translation aren't very very good

      That said, there are some very good western coach on Youtube (Eli baraty, Brett clark etc..)

      Two channels i like :

      박PD : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIQJdX7czzLhYGxj-VSZOBg


      TTNuri 탁구누리 : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9kSgD6xzwFYwmPT4wquTdQ
      I forgot to add PD, the translations of the Ryu Seungmin tutorials are insightful even to me as a shakehand player.

      As for the gaps in coaches, I have worked extensively with Brett Clarke so I mostly have biased and positive experiences with Western coaches. I find that once a coach is invested in technique and has learned how to make an adult learner player play better, their ability to teach is profound.
      Last edited by NextLevel; 01-15-2020 at 08:32 PM.

    12. Top | #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      BTW: in that video he says you need to increase your acceleration. He never says anything about how you would increase the acceleration. He never explains anything about mechanics. It is really just lip service to the idea of acceleration.

      If he wanted you to understand about how to increase the acceleration, he would be talking about the forearm snapping, the movement at the elbow joint and how to time it to happen shortly before contact, and he would be talking about whip mechanics for the wrist which would go with the snap of the forearm and the timing of snap and whip with the contact.

      But he didn't really say anything about how to improve the acceleration of your racket in the stroke. He just said that is what you need to do. And while the legs, hips and core rotation should be powering the stroke, that is not really so much about the acceleration as the underlying force behind the stroke.

      So, that is ERT. He didn't say anything wrong, unless you are counting the idea that nobody in the west knows this and only the Chinese are superior. But from the technique side, he didn't say anything wrong. He just didn't give any actual methods to achieve what he said was needed. So, pontificating, not coaching.
      Yes, Carl has covered a lot of the things that bugged me about ERT videos. There were also a couple of technical things he mentioned too that are contentious matters on which not all coaches agree (assuming I am remembering correctly something he put in one of his videos, which is not necessarily a good assumption).


      With respect to something Carl just mentioned, among other things, he never talks about how to increase acceleration without introducing timing errors. Sure, we've all thought about ways to increase racket speed and ERT mentions one way. But how to do this without spraying balls all over the place because you are making small timing errors? Interestingly, it was a coach in Sweden who gave me some insights on how to do this. Maybe I should start making videos about "ancient Viking table tennis secrets". To really add the right effect, I would include subtitles in written in runes.

      I am willing to listen to someone tell me about "Chinese training methods" if that person has been a provincial level Chinese player, or a very good western player who spent a lot of time (face to face) with actual high level Chinese coaches. Actually, there are growing numbers of people like that in big cities in the US. And I am willing to listen to someone say "what Western coaches won't tell you" if I have some confidence they have spent extended time with lots of good coaches in Europe or North America. Being from Vietnam maybe by itself isn't enough to convince me.

      One reason I simply don't pay attention to ERT is because there is so much other great coaching content online now, a lot of which was mentioned here already.
      Last edited by Baal; 01-16-2020 at 12:44 AM.

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    14. Top | #48
      Hysteresis is offline
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      I think ERT is useful as a general outline of the principles of the Chinese style of play.

      But it:
      a) doesn't go into a lot of detail
      b) isn't particularly useful if you are looking to improve some element your game ESPECIALLY if you don't already play in the Chinese style.

      A big part of this, is that the "Chinese style" is based on a whole philosophy of play that you are striving to always being able to achieve maximum 'Quality'(being basically combined ballistic and rotational energy on the ball) on every shot, all the time. Its contact is based on this assumption, its strokes are based on this assumption, its footwork is based on this assumption, and the choice of equipment is based on all these assumptions. The entire game is based on being in a position to extract maximum power from your body for your shots given the restraints of time/spacing. With the additional assumption of being forehand dominant in the older style, and being a 2 wing looper in the more modern iteration.

      It's not really useful to take small parts of this style and combine it into your otherwise, very different game. As such, most people coaching in this style, assume you already play on a platform based on this style, or you need to restyle your entire game to conform to this philosophy/style.

      ERT, doesn't go into enough detail for you to build your game around this from scratch. And his focus on this particular style means you can't really take small pointers from his video's to improve your game, because the take away is usually, that you need to change your entire game.

      He is interesting if you just want some overall information on the theory on this philosophy of play.
      Last edited by Hysteresis; 01-16-2020 at 04:14 AM.

    15. Top | #49
      Baal is offline
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      If you buy into the idea that a Vietnamese guy living in France is an expert on Chinese table tennis...

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    17. Top | #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by netdriver View Post
      i know two korean channels that make table tennis lessons on youtube. imo they're quite underrated for the great content they put out, so i'm going to recommend the channels to y'all.

      bbaerong-e yorong-e TV
      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClE...lkh05XYsAroz1Q

      Sejun Table Tennis Club
      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoN...able_polymer=1
      The first one with the young 30s ladies doing the vids (mostly for newer players)… They do most of their vids in my former club in Korea. I gunna hafta crash one of their vids when I manage to visit Korea after all these years gone.
      President, Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club. Hit us up on TTD or Facebook
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    19. Top | #51
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      If you buy into the idea that a Vietnamese guy living in France is an expert on Chinese table tennis...
      I do think this gets at the issue at the center of it all.

    20. Top | #52
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      WRM as already mentioned. It's quite entertaining (when the videos are subtitled).

      https://www.youtube.com/user/worldrubber

    21. Top | #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      The first one with the young 30s ladies doing the vids (mostly for newer players)… They do most of their vids in my former club in Korea. I gunna hafta crash one of their vids when I manage to visit Korea after all these years gone.
      If they have lots of girlz like that, take me with you.

    22. Top | #54
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      I don't think there is any such thing as "Chinese table tennis" from a fundamentals POV. Being in good position and using your body well is universal. No western players or coaches advise people to go off balance or stumble around behind the table. So I reject the idea that anyone can change the whole way they play to be more chinese. We can all just get incrementally better. That's all the chinese players are, incrementally better than their foreign counterparts at every level.

      Some stuff ERT said that was useful to many people imo (and iirc which is very questionable bc early-onset memory loss) was
      1. Don't be an ej, it won't help
      2. Don't boost or use chinese rubber if you started with euro/jap
      3. Power from the ground

      His explanation of power from the ground is rubbish compared to ttnuri's. That is the best free TT video I've ever seen. But even if you hate his cheesy style, accept that ERT has a knack for packaging stuff in a memorable way. Power from the ground is one of those catchy phrases, and I think it's about probably the single most important fundamental error most players I see, including myself make - arm swinging.

      Okay, he didn't explain how to fix it. Other people have done that.

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    24. Top | #55
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      If they have lots of girlz like that, take me with you.
      This was the "Old" late 20s coach at that club when I left if that gives you an idea...

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    26. Top | #56
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      This thread is gold! Specially due the asian channels with english subtitles, hidden (for non korean/japanese speakers) gems!
      Thank you very much!

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    28. Top | #57
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      With respect to something Carl just mentioned, among other things, he never talks about how to increase acceleration without introducing timing errors. Sure, we've all thought about ways to increase racket speed and ERT mentions one way. But how to do this without spraying balls all over the place because you are making small timing errors? Interestingly, it was a coach in Sweden who gave me some insights on how to do this. Maybe I should start making videos about "ancient Viking table tennis secrets". To really add the right effect, I would include subtitles in written in runes.
      So, what exactly did that Swedish coach say...

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    30. Top | #58
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      I think this thread started out well. Everyone that contribute with knowledge and try to help people are doing something good. Do not matter If a Guy is a coach in real life or a good player as long as the information is good and somewhat correct.

      I think it is wise for everyone to try to sort out information aswell.

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    32. Top | #59
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      Quote Originally Posted by Brs View Post
      I don't think there is any such thing as "Chinese table tennis" from a fundamentals POV. Being in good position and using your body well is universal.
      You can't find "Chinese table tennis" in the fundamentals, because it's not in the fundamentals. This is why I called it being a "philosophy of play". Certain fundamentals are emphasised more due to the requirements of the approach, but they are still built from more or less the same fundamentals. While I think the lines are very blurry at the professional level where everyone is stretched to their physical limits, it's often much more clear at an amateur level, where there are lots of skill/physical limitations, allow you to see which fundamentals are emphasised and which ones are "allowed" to just be weak.

      Quote Originally Posted by Brs View Post
      No western players or coaches advise people to go off balance or stumble around behind the table. So I reject the idea that anyone can change the whole way they play to be more chinese.
      While obviously no decent coach is going to teach you to have bad fundamentals. I find western coaches are much more permissive of safer/passive play. "You arn't quite sure if you can lift this backspin, and you open your blade angle to play it softer? That's ok better safe than sorry", "You prefer flatter active block backhands? That's ok if that's just your style."

      Whereas in the Chinese style, those are the sorts of shots you play when your opponent puts you in a tough position, these are not things that are ok to do from a neutral position, or when you have the advantage. You are almost certainly going to be asked to just loop that backspin shot harder, get into position faster and use your legs better. If you don't have a proper attacking backhand loop, you are going to be asked to run around it and attack it with your forehand. It's not ok to be passive for no reason or because "that's just how I play my backhands".

      I think the essence of the "Chinese philosophy of play", is that you really arn't supposed to be trading off potential power on your shot, for ease of play, weak fundamentals, or faster stroke recovery if it can at all be helped. It's probably less obvious at the professional level because you already arn't supposed to be making those trade-offs anyway.
      Last edited by Hysteresis; 01-18-2020 at 12:17 PM.

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    34. Top | #60
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      Thanks for all your comments. I started the thread to find out which videos are best to watch to improve my game. I think most people agree that for beginners the videos from TT Daily, Yang Yang and others are well produced and easy to understand. Tom Lodziak now has over 80 short videos and brings in experts like Craig Bryant, Eli Barretty and Paul Drinkall for specialist advice so is useful for even experienced players. I have tried some of the foreign videos which are great but sometimes difficult to follow.

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