Specific next blade for my playing style?

Baal · Nov 29, 2019

H3 is very unforgiving of any lapse in technique and I am assuming you started to get serious about TT as an adult. Go with something grippy, not tacky.

yogi_bear · Nov 29, 2019

Yup, H3 needs a particular set of skill that you need to brush the ball properly.

alas26 · Nov 30, 2019

Kuba Hajto said:
@alas26, what do you exactly mean by "bottoming out"? Bottoming out the rubber or did you meant using all the power blade can provide (using max power you can generate)?

He prolly suggests ditching H3, because chinese hard rubbers are hard to play without coaching. If found them demanding in terms of technique. In my opinion if you do not brush it is hard to apply spin. For me these sponges are harder to engage than for example tensor / tensioned rubbers, so tl;dr for beginners like me "no brushy, no spinny". In my particular experience I found Big Dipper (38 degrees DHS scale) and Bluefire JP02 (45 tensor scale, about 37 or 38 dhs?) were much much easier to loop than my Jupiter 2 (38 dhs scale) (although I still prefer playing with Jupiter 2 for numerous reasons, like the way how ball travels)

Hi,

Bottoming out as in, exceeding the compression energy potential of the sponge. So, essentially hitting too hard into the sponge that you hit the wood and it kills all of the energy release back into the ball from the sponge.

If you’re consistently doing that, your rubber/sponge is too soft or the sponge is too thin.

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Hysteresis · Nov 30, 2019

Yeah, i'm not getting why everyone is suggesting ditching the H3 either.

It might well be easier for him to loop with a modern eurojap rubber. But realistically, how many points do you actually win via the power/consistency of your loops in a game, especially on a forehand?

From his description, he is using his forehand to serve, then "use my body and straight arm to hit as hard as I can". Both things the H3 is perfectly fine at. He's not trying to engage a long forehand to forehand loop rally.

Now, it's likely his forehand loop kill probably isn't great or has incredibly predictable placement, likely both, otherwise his opponent wouldn't have such an easy time returning it. But if you are getting all the time in the world to play a big straight arm forehand, maybe just work on your forehand loop.

Der_Echte · Nov 30, 2019

Hysteresis said:
...Yeah, i'm not getting why everyone is suggesting ditching the H3 either...

Well, I get it, and so do some others with experience for very good reasons.

Sure, one COULD from the get-go try to learn an EFFECTIVE way to loop drive play with H3 on FH, but as a learning adult, it is gunna be tough... not just difficult, but tough on your shoulder. There are DECADES LONG experienced 2200+ players who use H3 and their shoulder be continuously jacked up on and off (jack it up, rest 4 months, jack it up again after a couple months)

Trying to learn an attacking game with H3 on FH is very demanding, stroke must be very powerful transfer to ball at impact, which means stroke needs to be a certain explosiveness, explosion timing, power flow, amplification, and direct kind of impact. You try that (try to do it even remotely explosive and are not right) and are not 100% biomechanically efficient... good luck, you are the fast train sooner or later to pay various medical industry personnel a lot of your hard earned money.

What I get is that elite level Chinese player/coaches (think of the 2500, 2600, 2700+ crowd who were provincial stars or sparring partners for CNT pros)… this kind of Chinese coach is dead-set on instructing kids (and adults) in the same manner they learned... BTY ALC (mostly Viscaria) with H3 FH and T05 BH...

I call that the Chinese coach coached machine gun level growing kid standard issue bat. In Bay Area and wherever there are such coaches, I see their kids (and some adults) use this exact setup.

The easy reason is if you are not heavily coached and have the precise exact effective biomechanics for that kind of required impact, you are wasting your time and health pursuing glory in that fashion.

Then, there is the issue of the progression of slower and slower balls. Players found a way to adapt with the 40mm cell ball, but when 1st gen plastic balls were out and the standard, players had to hit 110-120 percent HARDER to get a similar result from their hit... you get it... that wear and tear + any inefficiency with tear you a new one right in the shoulder. Then, you get even LESS spinny versions of the balls and you gotta go for 130 percent... just not gunna work unless your stroke is right on the money.

It just isn't worth trying to start down that road as an adult learner... that is why you see experienced players/coaches say to ditch H3 and go for modern dynamic OFF or modern control oriented OFF rubbers.

Hysteresis · Nov 30, 2019

Der_Echte said:
Well, I get it, and so do some others with experience for very good reasons.

Sure, one COULD from the get-go try to learn an EFFECTIVE way to loop drive play with H3 on FH, but as a learning adult, it is gunna be tough... not just difficult, but tough on your shoulder. There are DECADES LONG experienced 2200+ players who use H3 and their shoulder be continuously jacked up on and off (jack it up, rest 4 months, jack it up again after a couple months)

Trying to learn an attacking game with H3 on FH is very demanding, stroke must be very powerful transfer to ball at impact, which means stroke needs to be a certain explosiveness, explosion timing, power flow, amplification, and direct kind of impact. You try that (try to do it even remotely explosive and are not right) and are not 100% biomechanically efficient... good luck, you are the fast train sooner or later to pay various medical industry personnel a lot of your hard earned money.

What I get is that elite level Chinese player/coaches (think of the 2500, 2600, 2700+ crowd who were provincial stars or sparring partners for CNT pros)… this kind of Chinese coach is dead-set on instructing kids (and adults) in the same manner they learned... BTY ALC (mostly Viscaria) with H3 FH and T05 BH...

I call that the Chinese coach coached machine gun level growing kid standard issue bat. In Bay Area and wherever there are such coaches, I see their kids (and some adults) use this exact setup.

The easy reason is if you are not heavily coached and have the precise exact effective biomechanics for that kind of required impact, you are wasting your time and health pursuing glory in that fashion.

Then, there is the issue of the progression of slower and slower balls. Players found a way to adapt with the 40mm cell ball, but when 1st gen plastic balls were out and the standard, players had to hit 110-120 percent HARDER to get a similar result from their hit... you get it... that wear and tear + any inefficiency with tear you a new one right in the shoulder. Then, you get even LESS spinny versions of the balls and you gotta go for 130 percent... just not gunna work unless your stroke is right on the money.

It just isn't worth trying to start down that road as an adult learner... that is why you see experienced players/coaches say to ditch H3 and go for modern dynamic OFF or modern control oriented OFF rubbers.

All of that is well and good if this were a new player buying his first serious bat (and therefore eq agnostic, as they arn't really used to anything yet) to develop their game with. I wouldn't suggest H3 to that kind of player either.

But what we actually have is a player who already uses a H3 (so I assume at least somewhat used to it), asking for a specific problem to be solved.

Moreover, I find this emphasis on the loop drive really very weird. While it's probabably one of the more fun parts of the game, it's actual importance seems to be incredibly overblown.

Especially at the OP's level of play, serve, receive and short play are going to decide the outcome of points and games far far more than the quality or consistency of your forehand loop could ever hope to. All are parts of the game that H3 are good at, if not actually better than modern eurojap rubbers at.

While it's important, especially from the OP's assessment of the problem, to be able to put away easy balls with your forehand loop. I think this assessing the merits of a forehand rubber based solely or even primarily on it's performance on looping is not really reflective of how forehand rubbers actually get used in a game situation. Especially at that level of play. Pretty much any popular inverted rubber will do the job on putting away loose balls with your forehand, that problem is almost certainly a problem of technique and not equipment.

Baal · Nov 30, 2019

Hysteresis said:
Yeah, i'm not getting why everyone is suggesting ditching the H3 either.

It might well be easier for him to loop with a modern eurojap rubber. But realistically, how many points do you actually win via the power/consistency of your loops in a game, especially on a forehand?

From his description, he is using his forehand to serve, then "use my body and straight arm to hit as hard as I can". Both things the H3 is perfectly fine at. He's not trying to engage a long forehand to forehand loop rally.

Now, it's likely his forehand loop kill probably isn't great or has incredibly predictable placement, likely both, otherwise his opponent wouldn't have such an easy time returning it. But if you are getting all the time in the world to play a big straight arm forehand, maybe just work on your forehand loop.

He will get better as soon as he stops trying to "hit as hard as he can" but that is another topic.

lasta · Nov 30, 2019

alas26 said:
Hi,

Bottoming out as in, exceeding the compression energy potential of the sponge. So, essentially hitting too hard into the sponge that you hit the wood and it kills all of the energy release back into the ball from the sponge.

If you’re consistently doing that, your rubber/sponge is too soft or the sponge is too thin.

Bottoming out doesn't "kill energy released back into the ball". If anything, all your high effort attacks should aim to bottom out the rubber. Rubber bounciness only matter for low-impact strokes, its the blade that provides high end power. And yes, a blade can "plateau" too if its too flexible or too soft.

I might be against the grain, but when I played Jpen inverted; grippier/harder=better. Much better top end power, less bouncy/more linear in lower impact shots and better control/predictability/linearity. Hard+tacky also generates more spin which means both more options for attacking at the same time as more safety in topins.

Look at the recent Simon Gauzy vs Ma Long game. I wouldn't outright say Gauzy is physically weaker than Long, but just count the number of counter-loops missing the end of the table from Gauzy's side. Even the state-of-the art Ransanters can't generate enough grip to overcome the humble T-3 generation Hurricane, and IMO Gauzy is one of the best modern examples of proper brush looping.

Simas · Nov 30, 2019

passifid said:
Unless you are having coching I'd ditch the h3 it's very hard to use well without good footwork. It will also make your set up faster

It seems that starting this post, the ending Neo was lost....
and H3 and H3Neo although they don't sound that different, are rather different rubbers. H3 is classic Chinese rubber with a very tacky rubber and very hard sponge, H3Neo is with softer sponge and not that tacky.

So I'd say H3Neo can be used at advanced beginner level. And it won't be as fast as tensor with composite blade. Anyways at ~1400 (don't want to sound negative or smth, but at 1400 there are still some things to learn) I wouldn't be blaming your setup for the lack of speed. For example try switching blades with your playing partner (I assume they have faster blades and that's why you want a faster one too? ) and they should be returning your smashes as easy as they were before if your level and theirs differ...

Baal · Nov 30, 2019

1400 is the very beginning of your journey. Be patient.

Learn to get into rallies. Learn to keep the ball on the table with every ball hit at around 70% of your maximum power. Learn to be consistent when you have to move to get to the ball and to have easy transitions between FH and BH. Get better at reading spin. Learn to show your opponent one thing, say cross court, and then hit down the line or at his body.

The previous comment is very good. None of the things I just mentioned require an equipment change on your part. Personally I think tackyvrubbers are tough for 1400 players but if it is H3 Neo maybe not so bad.

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Specific next blade for my playing style?

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