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    1. Top | #1
      delerious is offline
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      Is it true that in a pushing rally, you don't have to try to add more spin?

      I'm a beginner and trying to get ready for a big upcoming tournament. I went to my local table tennis club and got some coaching today.

      What sometimes happens during my matches is that I'll get into these unending pushing rallies. As the rally gets longer, I try to generate more backspin in an attempt to end the rally, but frequently that results in me committing the error.

      The coach said that after the first few hits in a pushing rally, the ball will have so much spin that there's no need to try to add any more spin. That doesn't seem to make sense though. The rotation of the ball should reverse with every push, right? So when I push, I'm changing the spin.

    2. Top | #2
      Dream2K is offline
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      if the incoming ball has heavy underspin then all you need is to push it lightly and the opponent gets some of the underspin back. **Edit: the returned ball does have topspin, not underspin.

      in a pushing game one should vary both the amount of underspin and ball placement. also, watch out for the variability in the spin by your opponent.
      Last edited by Dream2K; 12-08-2019 at 02:16 AM.

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    4. Top | #3
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      For beginner, instead of focusing so much on adding the spin, focus more on left / right positioning and whether it is short / long.

    5. Top | #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dream2K View Post
      if the incoming ball has heavy underspin then all you need is to push it lightly and the opponent gets some of the underspin back. **Edit: the returned ball does have topspin, not underspin.

      in a pushing game one should vary both the amount of underspin and ball placement. also, watch out for the variability in the spin by your opponent.
      No this is incorrect. The push has backspin if you use inverted rubbers, the degree of spin depends on how much of the incoming spin was retained on the push.
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    7. Top | #5
      Baal is offline
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      Your coach is correct. The key is placement and consistency. You're not going to win many points by adding so much spin your opponent pushes into the net. Instead you will make more errors. Force your opponent to move. Get good at pushing deep and learn to find your opponent's cross-over location ( where they may be undecided whether to use backhand or forehand). You are describing a pretty common stage beginners have to get through. Even in pushing rallies try to stay light on your feet.
      Last edited by Baal; 12-08-2019 at 02:41 AM.

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    9. Top | #6
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      Not only is it true, you should actively use the endless push rallies to learn to return an underspin ball with sidespin or no-spin. When you do that, if your opponent touches the bottom of the ball to push again, it will pop up. Then you can practice flat-killing short high balls. That will end the endless push rally. And it's really good preparation for receiving short backspin serves later.

      We all go through the million pushes stage before learning to loop. And we all just want to escape from it as fast as possible. But if you don't use that time to learn to push really well, you have to circle back to it later. Pushing is an essential skill at every playing level.

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    11. Top | #7
      TTHopeful is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by laistrogian View Post
      For beginner, instead of focusing so much on adding the spin, focus more on left / right positioning and whether it is short / long.
      Good advice

    12. Top | #8
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      Learn to open against backspin instead.

      Maybe serve so they can not push.

      Maybe push with a more closed racket.

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    14. Top | #9
      Kuba Hajto is offline
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      A little off topic advice. Try learning some top spin serves. Pushers hate any form of topspin. Usually they have no idea how to deal with it. They usually want to cut everything. Most often then not, top spin serve + long push = high ball easy to attack.

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    16. Top | #10
      delerious is offline
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      So today I played a guy who pushes against me a lot and I performed badly. I really struggle with the short game.

      Quote Originally Posted by Brs View Post
      Not only is it true, you should actively use the endless push rallies to learn to return an underspin ball with sidespin or no-spin. When you do that, if your opponent touches the bottom of the ball to push again, it will pop up. Then you can practice flat-killing short high balls. That will end the endless push rally. And it's really good preparation for receiving short backspin serves later.
      I'm not sure how I would return an underspin ball with no spin. For sidespin, I guess I would just angle my racket diagonally while sweeping it upwards under the ball?

      I'm always afraid to try to kill a high push, because it usually goes into the net when I try.

      Quote Originally Posted by Lula View Post
      Learn to open against backspin instead.

      Maybe push with a more closed racket.
      I'm not sure how I would push if my racket is facing downwards? Do you mean more vertically? The coach was telling me to have my racket almost horizontal on pushes. He said if I have it more vertical then the ball will likely go into the net.

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    18. Top | #11
      wappak is offline
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      you dont have to push everytime you receive a low bounce ball, you can also side sweep or strawberry flick like other pros does so you wont be too much predictable on your shots.

    19. Top | #12
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      If you push a No spin ball with a open racket angle the ball Will go up. If you push with a more closed racket angle or make a topspin stroke the ball will be lower.

    20. Top | #13
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Yeah. You don't have to add spin. If you can figure out how to push with less spin, that will actually do more for you in those rallies than trying to load spin onto it. I have a funny way of pushing and making it topspin. When I use that on players my level they usually read it and see what I did. One level down from my level the player won't read it and will pop the ball up or attack long because they thought it was backspin they were trying to loop. A dead push would likely get popped up as well.

      If you practice flat killing popped up pushes, at a certain point you won't hit them in the net any more. You do just have to keep trying it.

      But Lula is correct. It is also worth using those situations to try and learn to attack backspin. Don't worry if you land it. But try to attack the push every so often. And it is also worth practicing, or training attacking backspin.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 12-12-2019 at 04:04 AM.
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    22. Top | #14
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by delerious
      ...The coach said that after the first few hits in a pushing rally, the ball will have so much spin that there's no need to try to add any more spin. That is one way to look at it. What one should consider is that when an incoming ball has a lot of spin, there is a lot of energy there to reflect back as speed or spin or both. That is why I believe that one doesn't need to do a very forceful stroke to return a spinny underspin ball back with good spin. Actually, you just need to get to the bounce, step in, do not move arm much, then take ball off bounce with the tiniest of jab, like a cm or two. That is all one needs to return the ball spinny. That doesn't seem to make sense though. I can see how you and others may feel that way. The issue is how impact dynamics work is not exactly intuitive to how we are wired to think initially when we start the sport. To be fair to you, even some veteran players misunderstand this aspect. The rotation of the ball should reverse with every push, right? So when I push, I'm changing the spin.Yes, when you return back an underspin ball with underspin, you are changing the spin. However, when the incoming ball has underspin, it is very easy to grab the ball and send it back as underspin.
      Please see my comments in bold after the sentences.

      To induce more thought, or to confuse you, or get really mess you up and want to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge with Carl for kicks, is that you can change your impact dynamics (mostly by a loosening of grip pressure at impact and allowing ball to rebound) in that case you are absorbing energy (spin) and give back less energy (less spin) with similar or a little less pace. That returns a mostly dead ball.

      It takes exceptional step to the bounce, touch, and timing or your grip pressure to do this, but it can be done. Rich Dewitt does this a lot with his passing shots in a rally and it so messes up young gun loopers who are accustomed to a different ball and different arrival time. As a player whose rating floats in the 2000-2200s range, Rich regularly defeats 2300 and 2400 level players.

      Some amateur players actually do a bit of this naturally, I mean those who try to spin the ball, but do not properly time their acceleration to and through impact. Many of these players also use excessively long and inefficient strokes.

      If you follow the forums enough, you will hear me talk about this change of hand pressure as an "Invisible Force" of a player. I say that as an opponent does not really see you loosen at impact, tough to spot... the bat is still moving the same or similar to a spin shot. This is a very much under-studied, under-learned, and misunderstood aspect of impact dynamics. It is a shame more people have not learned for themselves how to use this type of touch more often.

      Higher level players who understand touch really get it, many do not.

      It is something to consider, even at a very low level in the sport, the "invisible force" works at all levels to those not seeing what is coming at them.
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    24. Top | #15
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by wappak
      you dont have to push everytime you receive a low bounce ball, you can also side sweep or strawberry flick like other pros does so you wont be too much predictable on your shots.
      The OP can try do that and ATTEMPT to look like a pro, but end up pissing away more points. Many advanced players are not consistent enough to do that shot at will in the pressure of a match with any acceptable level of consistency.

      Granted, it is NOT a bad idea to start learning those kind of responses earlier in his or her development... that makes mastering those shots come sooner at the level they could practically employ them at the right level. That speeds of growth down the road.

      For those reasons, it isn't a capital crime train on them... but it isn't reasonable a beginning level player could use those shots in a match with even more than 10-20 percent landing percentage. OP is still struggling with how to make a basic push and its variations.

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    26. Top | #16
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by delerious
      So today I played a guy who pushes against me a lot and I performed badly. I really struggle with the short game.

      Don't sweat the short game right now, even many advanced players still struggle with a short game. It is a good idea to start training it though, you would learn a lot about touch and impact dynamics that would carry you through levels easier and you would have a usable weapon at the advanced level if you get there, wheras someone not training that would not have such a weapon.

      it is better for you at this point to worry about reading the ball, its arrival time, the spot it will bounce... better to focus on perceiving that better... then stepping to the ball and taking it off the bounce with a loose grip and a very tiny jab real loose.


      I'm not sure how I would return an underspin ball with no spin.

      I explained it in a previous reply. It is a matter of loosening the grip DURING impact (to absorb the spin energy) and going through the ball without accelerating. The end result is that you "ate" the spin, gave back some pace, but very little spin with a stroke that looks just like a normal push stroke. That will mess up many a player to give you chances to attack if you are ready, decisive enough, and in position

      For sidespin, I guess I would just angle my racket diagonally while sweeping it upwards under the ball?

      You would have to get the tip down or up. Impacting ball on the side of the spin axis a little is an EASY way to overcome incoming spin and put your spin on the ball. It is my preferred way to handle incoming topspin. Think of why that is called a HOOKSHOT.

      I'm always afraid to try to kill a high push, because it usually goes into the net when I try.

      There are a few ways to loop, loopdrive, loopkill, or smash a high underspin ball. Mostly players loopkill or smash these. It really isn't too difficult to understand. You get into position, open the blade face (think perpendicular to table surface, accelerate the bat FORWARD, and follow through forward and upwards... more upwards for heavier incoming spin. If you cannot generate a very fast bat speed, this will still be a fail, a much worse fail than before. If you can get the angle and follow through properly, it is SO DAMN EASY to kill a high underspin ball you will get real pissed off you never learned it before.

      The other way to kill a high underspin with just your lower arm swing and not so fast a stroke is to FIRM UP the grip real quickly real strong RIGHT AT IMPACT and go through the ball with same concept, forward, follow through more upward vs heavier ball. The firming up of the grip will eat the spin and transfer MAXIMUM energy to the ball, thus you can get away with just a lower arm swing. You will not produce a rocket ball, but so close to the table or over it, you do not need but 50% of the possible power to get the ball by opponent if they are at or near the table.


      I'm not sure how I would push if my racket is facing downwards? Do you mean more vertically? The coach was telling me to have my racket almost horizontal on pushes. He said if I have it more vertical then the ball will likely go into the net.

      If you open your bat way too much like that and impact the underspin ball on a low energy push shot, there is a good chance the ball will not even make it halfway to the net.

      However, on a high energy shot or a shot where there is a big time firming of grip right at impact, the ball come off the bat differently. That is why you see such forward looking swings vs chopped balls by pros who seem to be taking it on the rise with an open bat and a big time forward swing. The ball comes off bat differently as the ball already has a lot of vertical energy you do not need to fight against, all you need is forward energy and a "catch and grab" on the ball with a very fast bat. This kind of stuff sounds counter-intuitive, but it is how the ball comes off the bat in that situation. If you strike the ball at a different part of the arc, then you need to impact it with a different swing plane and impact. it is confusing that that also has a different way it comes off the bat, but that is the under-discussed mystery of table tennis. Advanced players do this without realizing WHY if they learned as kids - you have a different path to neuron association as a kid.
      Please see above comments in bold below each sentence.

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    28. Top | #17
      pingpongpaddy is offline
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      Consider this:-
      in ‘counter’ rallies after the first stroke spinning the ball requires less effort especially if your touch is good
      what are ‘counter’ rallies?
      push vs push \o ...o/
      topspin vs topspin /o .... o\

      For instance in a back spin push stroke we see that the speed of the brushing contact provides the spin . If the ball is not spinning before contact then with brush force 5 we get spin result 5 But if the incoming ball is a backspin ball of spin 5 then if we apply brush force 5 to that ball then the resulting spin is 10 !!.
      so if two good players continually push to each with brush force 5, theoretically the amount of spin on the ball is increasing .... 5 10 15 20 with each shot which becomes very difficult because with each shot the ball is pulling down to the net requiring each player to brush more horizontally to avoid this. So in practice experienced players return a heavy incoming chop with a light push concentrating mostly on ensuring that the ball does not go in the net by using an open racket angle effectively trapping the spin.
      experienced players will know to use varied amounts of spin to get advantage in pushing rallies and get opportunities to play topspin attack

    29. Top | #18
      Tinykin is online now
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      Solution: The push-only match

      OP, learning the short push game is very important.
      In fact, most group coaching sessions that I've seen, there will be a part dedicated to this.

      Example; a pushing match, A vs B, to 21.
      A wins the point if B pushes long (1x bounce). The players thus learn, how to push tactically, i.e. short placement with light or heavy spin and how to recognise when a ball is going long or short etc. Plus the different ways to serve short

      Try it with a friend or practice partner, you'll instinctively learn all that's suggested in the previous posts.
      Last edited by Tinykin; 12-16-2019 at 12:00 PM.
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    30. Top | #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by pingpongpaddy View Post
      Consider this:-
      in ‘counter’ rallies after the first stroke spinning the ball requires less effort especially if your touch is good
      what are ‘counter’ rallies?
      push vs push \o ...o/
      topspin vs topspin /o .... o\

      For instance in a back spin push stroke we see that the speed of the brushing contact provides the spin . If the ball is not spinning before contact then with brush force 5 we get spin result 5 But if the incoming ball is a backspin ball of spin 5 then if we apply brush force 5 to that ball then the resulting spin is 10 !!.
      so if two good players continually push to each with brush force 5, theoretically the amount of spin on the ball is increasing .... 5 10 15 20 with each shot which becomes very difficult because with each shot the ball is pulling down to the net requiring each player to brush more horizontally to avoid this. So in practice experienced players return a heavy incoming chop with a light push concentrating mostly on ensuring that the ball does not go in the net by using an open racket angle effectively trapping the spin.
      experienced players will know to use varied amounts of spin to get advantage in pushing rallies and get opportunities to play topspin attack
      I don't really understand this and I believe it is important to understand spin dynamics to assist shot selection. I was taught that you could either add spin or takeaway spin. Surely, spin will only keep on increasing if one player pushes/chops and the other player topspins, i.e they are both adding spin in the same direction?

    31. Top | #20
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      I support both Paddy and Tinykin's positions. They have been around in the sport a LONG time and are NOT talking out their azz on this one.

      Spike, I can understand your position, I was there in the same situation as you before too when Paddy and Tinykin both saw my sorry rec player self posting on the internetz many years ago... and just didn't get it.

      As much as I dislike pnchy's history and approach, his complicated thinking sometimes boiled down in his posts is correct - rubbers and blades can absorb energy... but he failed to get it on a few other importing things as there are many factors determining absorbing of energy and rebound dynamics.

      Basically, if you can see the ball, are in position, have leverage, and know what to do... you can do ANYTHING to the ball one thought possible and impossible.

      Continuing spin as seen from opponent is reversing spin. Giving back same spin as seen from opponent is actually catching, absorbing, and reversing the spin. There are different dynamics going on and if you know how o use and control, you can pull mafia Goon Squad puppet strings.

      To go back to the original question of whether it is absolutely essential to increase spin consciously in a push rally, obvious answer is no - there are many possible responses and no single one is mandatory.

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