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  1. lasta is offline
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    #1

    Shakehand transition, basic questions.

    Hi guys,

    I’ve been practicing shakehand for the past month or so and could use a few pointers.

    As a background, I played penhold (Jpen inverted->Cpen short pips – single sided) for ~7 years. Had a very good coach for 2 years of weekly coaching so I’d like to think the basics are pretty solid. Been without coaching for a year now, so I’ve been figuring out shakehand pretty much on my own. I chose to stay with short pips on the forehand and use inverted on the backhand.

    Questions

    Grip: I’m using a moderate-depth neutral grip. But slightly extend the index finger into the blade surface for forehands (~2-3cm like Wang Liqin), and push the thumb against the rubber on backhand. Is this alright? Or should I keep the index finger stationary on all strokes? For those that use the forehand oriented grip, how do you close the angle to attack high balls on the backhand? Do most people switch between forehand and backhand grips?

    Backhand feels pretty natural, but for forehand, how do I close down the angle and still allow for wrist freedom? With penhold, I can press the thumb and pivot vs the extended backside fingers. The grip is firm but wrist is relaxed. Backside fingers also adds reinforcement on hard hits. With shakehand, thumb pressing doesn’t help much and I have to consciously angle down using the wrist, which kind of locks it. Also, I have to keep in mind of not “pressing” with the index finger or I risk “scooping” on bigger forehands. How do you deal with the angle and still use the wrist/finger for power (for drives and smashes, not looping)?

    Stance/Contact Point: With penhold, I play a very low/wide forehand oriented stance. With shakehand, I naturally default to a more parallel or slightly left foot forward stance. For those who switch to 10-4 or even 11-5 for forehands, again, how do for keep the proper angle and still use wrists? Do you forget the wrist altogether? Where is the optimal contact point from a top-down view?

    Also, with penhold I squat very low on forehand and contact at roughly chest or even above height. With shakehand I find a waist to lower chest contact point with a higher stance more natural, what are your preferences? Where is the optimal contact point from a sideways view?

    Sorry for the long post.
    Last edited by lasta; 12-09-2019 at 03:31 PM.

  2. Takkyu_wa_inochi is offline
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    #2
    I think grip is a very personal thing and you should do what works best for you

    i use the same grip, i.e i don't change my finger positions between FH and BH but for BH i close my wrist while for FH i open my wrist in a markedly fashion and it can cause me trouble sometimes when the pace of the rally is high. For example i might do a FH with the wrist not open after executing a BH and then i would have bad control on this one, or make a mistake, I could even miss the ball or hit the edge of the racket.
    Only when putting side spin i would close more the angle of the wrist for FH.

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    #3
    I used to play as a pen holder. So I hear you brother. That's a painfull transition. You may think you did it and than you lose a close game and than you start to think about your grip even more...

    My solution was this :
    1) use your index finger or thumb much less.
    2) hold your racket with fh in mind. Your natural grip should be fh dominated. Don't press your thumb while using your fh. And use a bit your index finger. You can move your index finger a bit that's ok.
    3) If you want to switch to a bh grip than use your thumb and put it on your bh rubber not on the handle. That way you can close down your bat and adjust the angle for bh . Release your thumb and now you switched back to the fh grip.

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    #4
    Relax your hand grip. Do not press too much. I do press with thumb when using bh.

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    #5
    I think you can try to have your finger a little more down, if it go to much upp the racket more easily becomes wobbily i think. You want to have the racket steady if you want to smash with short pimple. Why do you want to close the angle with short pimple? you should have an open racket with short pimple.

    I think forehand feet is somewhat outdatet. No time today to have very much forehand feet.

    With short pimple you always want to hit at the highest point and come a bit under the ball. I think you should use the belly a little, so you can only hit the ball almost at one place, since it becomes like an circle in where you rotate. If you hit to much in fron of you you will get no power, the same if you hit the ball behind you. I feel i have a hard time explaining this with my limited english and limited patience when i have a cold haha.

    Easiest would be if you film yourself. Good luck

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    #6

    grip

    Quote Originally Posted by lasta
    Hi guys,

    I’ve been practicing shakehand for the past month or so and could use a few pointers.

    As a background, I played penhold (Jpen inverted->Cpen short pips – single sided) for ~7 years. Had a very good coach for 2 years of weekly coaching so I’d like to think the basics are pretty solid. Been without coaching for a year now, so I’ve been figuring out shakehand pretty much on my own. I chose to stay with short pips on the forehand and use inverted on the backhand.

    Questions

    Grip: I’m using a moderate-depth neutral grip. But slightly extend the index finger into the blade surface for forehands (~2-3cm like Wang Liqin), and push the thumb against the rubber on backhand. Is this alright? Or should I keep the index finger stationary on all strokes? For those that use the forehand oriented grip, how do you close the angle to attack high balls on the backhand? Do most people switch between forehand and backhand grips?

    Backhand feels pretty natural, but for forehand, how do I close down the angle and still allow for wrist freedom? With penhold, I can press the thumb and pivot vs the extended backside fingers. The grip is firm but wrist is relaxed. Backside fingers also adds reinforcement on hard hits. With shakehand, thumb pressing doesn’t help much and I have to consciously angle down using the wrist, which kind of locks it. Also, I have to keep in mind of not “pressing” with the index finger or I risk “scooping” on bigger forehands. How do you deal with the angle and still use the wrist/finger for power (for drives and smashes, not looping)?

    Stance/Contact Point: With penhold, I play a very low/wide forehand oriented stance. With shakehand, I naturally default to a more parallel or slightly left foot forward stance. For those who switch to 10-4 or even 11-5 for forehands, again, how do for keep the proper angle and still use wrists? Do you forget the wrist altogether? Where is the optimal contact point from a top-down view?

    Also, with penhold I squat very low on forehand and contact at roughly chest or even above height. With shakehand I find a waist to lower chest contact point with a higher stance more natural, what are your preferences? Where is the optimal contact point from a sideways view?

    Sorry for the long post.
    Hi Lasta, what i do when closing bat angle for FH is use my pinky and ring finger to close the angle. I've learned this method from pingskills on youtube referring to "grip". I've always used my thumb and index finger, tightening the grip between the two (on impact) when looping which also worked but when i came across the ping skills video which instructs one to RELAX thumb and index finger and use PINKY and RING FINGER applying most of the pressure for the grip, this allowed me to have more control AND freedom of wrist during FH and BH shots. I know it sounds weird and it even feels weird at first, but once I got accustomed to this way of holding and transitioning bat angle on FH/BH shots, my shots have been more consistent this way. I know there are others who agree/disagree but this is what works for me. I use a flared shakehand bat. Lastly, I can't speak of most people, but I myself swith from BH to FH grip and vice versa when the situation arises. Hope this helps.

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    Last edited by splasher78; 12-10-2019 at 01:51 AM.

  7. lasta is offline
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    #7
    Thanks everyone. I'll try the pinky grip next time I play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lula
    I think you can try to have your finger a little more down, if it go to much upp the racket more easily becomes wobbily i think. You want to have the racket steady if you want to smash with short pimple. Why do you want to close the angle with short pimple? you should have an open racket with short pimple.

    I think forehand feet is somewhat outdatet. No time today to have very much forehand feet.

    With short pimple you always want to hit at the highest point and come a bit under the ball. I think you should use the belly a little, so you can only hit the ball almost at one place, since it becomes like an circle in where you rotate. If you hit to much in fron of you you will get no power, the same if you hit the ball behind you. I feel i have a hard time explaining this with my limited english and limited patience when i have a cold haha.

    Easiest would be if you film yourself. Good luck
    Lula,

    When I mentioned closed angle, I mean ~60 degrees (guess), still acute. I find if the angle is too open, I had to flat sweep too much, which my coach told me not to do. I get you about the "coming under the ball".

    About the contact point, maybe it can be simplified:

    Should I stand higher and line up the peak at waist-chest height, or squat lower and line up at chest-shoulder height? With penhold, I do the latter. With shakehand, if I squat too low (having to raise the hand), I feel pressure on the wrist to keep the angle right.

    More about the forehand angle, if I counter against topspin, I feel the wrist is locked because I control the angle with it. Is there a better way to control the angle and allow more wrist snap?

    Also, if I bring the index finger down, where should pressure be applied on forehands (on the finger, or ball of the knuckle?).
    Last edited by lasta; 12-10-2019 at 07:17 AM.

  8. Lula is offline
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    #8
    As long as you flathit the ball. Bad at Math haha. But i think you can have close to 90, i mean having the edge of the racket straight up. Then Maybe close a little if you loop.

    How deep you stand depends how well you move and your height. You need to bend the legs so you can move well. If you watch Falck he need to bend alot so he can come a little under the ball. That is why it is a serious disadvantage to be tall with short pimple. Because We get the highest point below us if We Do not bend alot. So you want to bend the legs so you can hit the ball a bit under it. If you are short you Do not need to Do this as much. So depend on how well you can move and where you get the highest point depending on your heigth.

    I Do not think you should have so much wrist snap. This make the shot unsafe and by relaxing the wrist i think you Will get a bad shot. Need to have a bit tension if you want to Hr hard so the ball get some resistance. I think you can try to use wrist at flipprig and opening against backspin But not at the other shots. But i can imagine everyone have difference opinions here.

    I think that is okay. Either you have big hands or a bit of fh grip? I think you can have it a bit higher to. But the most important thing is that you can hold it steady when you want to create power with the smash. If you hold to loosely and to wobbly when you hit the ball it Will not work well. You want ro be relaxed at the beginning of the shot, just tense when you hit the ball. How you tense here is not so important. I think many players have a little more pressure with index finger on the forehand all the time ro be able to get power in the ball and direct the shot. But still need to be somewhat relaxed.

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  9. lasta is offline
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    #9
    Guys know any shakehand short pips players to watch? I'm following Mattias Falck and old Zhan Jian videos. Any other good ones?

  10. Takkyu_wa_inochi is offline
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    #10
    Mima ITO

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  11. yoass is offline
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    #11
    Hou Yingchao. :-)

  12. lasta is offline
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    #12
    What about short pips forehand? There must be some from the archives

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