• Join our newsletter: 
  • Welcome Guest


    Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 57
    1. Top | #1
      Baraka552 is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      TTD Member Country: Ukraine


      Join Date
      Dec 2017
      Location
      Kharkov
      Posts
      49
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts

      How can a harder rubber be slower than a softer one?

      I've seen several reports that the harder rubber, the slower and spinnier it is. The question is: how come? Let's compare some Chinese tensor-like rubbers: Palio AK47 Blue vs. Red. The red one is harder and thus definitely faster, obviously because it has less pores.
      Now, I had H3 Neo 39°. It was hard comparing to, let's say, T05. Don't remember about the AK47 ones, had them over different timespan. So, that H3 was HELLA FAST. Even despite it's tackiness, it was too fast (I'm used to hitting hard; comparing to this H3, T05 was way more controllable and even spinnier I guess). So it was hard and fast and the tackiness didn't work. I couldn't easily lift backspin, the rubber didn't catch it. I haven't tried the harder versions and never boosted but it is what it is. When I took a bat with Big Dipper, it was way better.
      Complaining aside, once again, the question is — how come harder rubbers slower and spinnier than the soft ones? Are they less elastic? Or do they have less or smaller pores? Or they're more tacky (the ESN rubbers definitely can't be harder and slower, right)? Or both more tacky and less elastic?
      Last edited by Baraka552; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:01 PM.
      Have a nice day bruh. =)

    2. Top | #2
      Kuba Hajto is offline
      says EJ at heart
       
      Advanced TTD Member Country: Poland

      Equipment:
      Blade DHS W968-8 Clone
      Forehand Rubber Sanwei Target 90
      Backhand Rubber Gambler Burst Thors Hammer

      Join Date
      Oct 2019
      Posts
      266
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 104 Times in 77 Posts
      The sponge is not everything that can be hard or soft. I think that top sheet properties may too have something to do here. Also keep in mind that tacky rubber needs a different technique. Less hitty more brushy. For me Big Dipper does not need as much the brushing action. Also boosting Jupiter 2 made it hell of easier to open up.

    3. Top | #3
      Baraka552 is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      TTD Member Country: Ukraine


      Join Date
      Dec 2017
      Location
      Kharkov
      Posts
      49
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto View Post
      The sponge is not everything that can be hard or soft. I think that top sheet properties may too have something to do here. Also keep in mind that tacky rubber needs a different technique. Less hitty more brushy. For me Big Dipper does not need as much the brushing action. Also boosting Jupiter 2 made it hell of easier to open up.

      Well, yeah, BD is kind of a hybrid.
      Still, everyone boosts the rubber to make the sponge "softer" and "easier to play with". I guess you can't brush all the time. For me, when heavy backspin is sent to me, it was easier to flat kill it with that H3 if the ball is high enough.
      Last edited by Baraka552; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:32 PM.

    4. Top | #4
      Kuba Hajto is offline
      says EJ at heart
       
      Advanced TTD Member Country: Poland

      Equipment:
      Blade DHS W968-8 Clone
      Forehand Rubber Sanwei Target 90
      Backhand Rubber Gambler Burst Thors Hammer

      Join Date
      Oct 2019
      Posts
      266
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 104 Times in 77 Posts
      I think if the ball is high enough loop kill is most often the way to go. I suggest either ditching the h3 or finding a person who will show you how to make it work. Otherwise the good excercise to start working on it is to do this:
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6diZVBQcIGw

      The video is by mr yogi_bear, the video helped me out, get some ballz and do the same thing then faster and faster. Ones you get enough energy that the ball spins a lot, then it will be managable to overcome the underspin.

    5. Top | #5
      Baraka552 is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      TTD Member Country: Ukraine


      Join Date
      Dec 2017
      Location
      Kharkov
      Posts
      49
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto View Post
      I think if the ball is high enough loop kill is most often the way to go. I suggest either ditching the h3 or finding a person who will show you how to make it work. Otherwise the good excercise to start working on it is to do this:
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6diZVBQcIGw

      The video is by mr yogi_bear, the video helped me out, get some ballz and do the same thing then faster and faster. Ones you get enough energy that the ball spins a lot, then it will be managable to overcome the underspin.
      I mean, that H3 in general was better for flat hitting, and that confirmed a guy that plays quite better than me. He's semi-defender, he bought that H3 and got rid of it as soon as possible.
      Thanks for the video anyway.

      Hey, did you have such experience with a harder but slower sponge?
      Last edited by Baraka552; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:07 PM.

    6. Top | #6
      yogi_bear is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      Equipment Expert
      Master TTD Member Country: Philippines
      yogi_bear's Avatar
      Equipment:
      Blade Xiom Offensive S; Tmount T540; Xiom Vega Euro
      Forehand Rubber Kokutaku 007 Pro; Hurricane 3; Tibhar MX-S
      Backhand Rubber Xiom Omega 7 Hyper; Stiga DNA H; Joola Maxxx 500

      Join Date
      Jan 2012
      Location
      Philippines
      Posts
      3,814
      Reviews
      Read 77 Reviews
      Liked 1,813 Times in 1,170 Posts
      Because as what I have been gelling people that softer sponge can be easily compressed compared to hard sponges but it is like a shock spring, if you have sufficient pressure to compress, the harder spring shock will give you more force while the softer one will have a lower limit.

    7. The Following User Likes yogi_bear's Post:

      thomas.pong (4 Weeks Ago)

    8. Top | #7
      Baraka552 is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      TTD Member Country: Ukraine


      Join Date
      Dec 2017
      Location
      Kharkov
      Posts
      49
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear View Post
      Because as what I have been gelling people that softer sponge can be easily compressed compared to hard sponges but it is like a shock spring, if you have sufficient pressure to compress, the harder spring shock will give you more force while the softer one will have a lower limit.
      OK, I get it, thanks.

    9. Top | #8
      Zeen is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      TTD Member Country: Canada


      Join Date
      Aug 2018
      Posts
      64
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 41 Times in 20 Posts
      XIOM knows what they are talking about. Here is a quote from XIOM's Europe website (read the part regarding sponge hardness:

      4 simple steps to find the perfect VEGA rubber for you:



      The VEGA rubber is one of the most selling rubber in the world. Not only the outstanding price-/performance-ratio, but also the easy-to-play characteristics and long durability makes this rubber series so popular.

      There is a huge range of different rubbers with different technology, sponge hardness and topsheet structures so that it is possible to find the perfect rubber for every player. Every rubber has advantages and disadvantages for your game, so it is important for you to understand which characteristics benefits your game the most.



      1. Understand how the sponge hardness affects your game:

      In general a harder sponge has more spin and speed potential. But to activate that high potential a high arm acceleration and advanced technique level is required. Due to shorter dwell time a more frequent training is recommended to maintain the ball control. You have a very direct feeling and ball contact because the ball doesn't sink deep into the sponge.

      On the other side of the hardness range you find softer and more springy rubbers that offer lots of control due to longer dwell time. It is easier to play fast and spinny balls also with slower movements and weaker technique levels. Softer rubber also tend to give a louder accoustic feedback to the player.



      57,5°: Vega DEF

      54°: Vega CHINA

      47,5°: Vega X, ASIA, PRO, INTRO, LPO

      45°: Vega TOUR, JAPAN

      42,5°: Vega EUROPE, ASIA DF, SPO

      40°: Vega ELITE

      37,5°: Vega EUROPE DF



      2. Understand how the spin potential affects your game:

      Different sponge hardness in combination with different topsheet structures result in different spin potential of the rubber. A rubber with high spin potential tends to grip the ball better and produce a high and sharply curved ball trajectory. This opens a big window over the net and is thereby more forgiving than a low ball trajectory curve. Beneficial is this characteristic especially when looping backspin balls.

      On the other side we have rubbers with a lower ball trajectory supporting a more direct way of play. This makes it easier to set the opponent under pressure with fast and sharp played balls which are more difficult to control. Players that tend to hit the ball flat and very direct benefit from a lower ball trajectory but in the end it is always an individually preference based choice.



      Ball trajectory curve:

      Vega PRO (very high)>X>DEF>JAPAN>EUROPE>EUROPE DF>ASIA>ELITE>INTRO>TOUR>ASIA DF>CHINA (low)



      3. Understand how the catapult affects your game:

      In general the softer the rubber, the more bouncy it is at slow arm movement. The harder rubbers of VEGA series are the ones that can produce the highest amount of spin and speed, when the player is able to activate their full potential. Due to different sponge and topsheet structures rubbers with the same sponge hardness can have different catapult effects.

      On the one hand springy rubbers take away work from the player and can produce spin and speed easily also with softer strokes like slowly played topspins. On the other hand less bouncy rubbers can be helpful in short short game over the table.

      Less springy rubbers need more power and advanced technique level from the player to speed up the ball. In exchange the player will be rewarded trough more stable and consistent attacking strokes because of more linear acceleration.

      Which characteristic is more suitable for you, always depends on your own way to play and your preferences.



      Apart from the sponge hardness, the used technology plays the biggest roll in how bouncy the rubber is. There are 4 different technologies:



      Elasto Futura (very springy, also used for Omega 7 rubbers)>Dynamic Friction (also used for Omega 5 rubbers)>Hyper Elasto (Vega typical technology)>Physi Elasto(less springy, a bit like classic rubbers without built-in glue effect)



      Elasto Futura: Vega X, TOUR

      Dynamic Friction: Vega ASIA DF, EUROPE DF

      Hyper Elasto: Vega DEF, PRO, ASIA, JAPAN, EUROPE, ELITE

      Physi Elasto: Vega INTRO



      4. Understand how the sponge thickness affects your game:

      If you take the same rubber but with different sponge thickness, you will still have the same characteristics in general. The thinner the sponge, the more you feel the blade when hitting the ball. This feedback and the slower rubber can lead to more control in general.

      A thicker sponge means more spin and speed potential from the rubber. Your technique level should be advanced and your strokes powerful enough to activate the benefits of a thick sponge. The downside is a loss of some control because of its increased speed.
      Last edited by Zeen; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:24 PM. Reason: font was black

    10. The Following 4 Users Like Zeen's Post:

      goodhand (4 Weeks Ago),NanaChiTang (2 Weeks Ago),NextLevel (2 Weeks Ago),UpSideDownCarl (4 Weeks Ago)

    11. Top | #9
      Kuba Hajto is offline
      says EJ at heart
       
      Advanced TTD Member Country: Poland

      Equipment:
      Blade DHS W968-8 Clone
      Forehand Rubber Sanwei Target 90
      Backhand Rubber Gambler Burst Thors Hammer

      Join Date
      Oct 2019
      Posts
      266
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 104 Times in 77 Posts
      In general the softer the rubber, the more bouncy it is at slow arm movement. The harder rubbers of VEGA series are the ones that can produce the highest amount of spin and speed, when the player is able to activate their full potential. Due to different sponge and topsheet structures rubbers with the same sponge hardness can have different catapult effects.
      This part answers your question.

    12. The Following User Likes Kuba Hajto's Post:

      UpSideDownCarl (4 Weeks Ago)

    13. Top | #10
      Baraka552 is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      TTD Member Country: Ukraine


      Join Date
      Dec 2017
      Location
      Kharkov
      Posts
      49
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
      OK, I get it, thank you all very much!

    14. Top | #11
      yogi_bear is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      Equipment Expert
      Master TTD Member Country: Philippines
      yogi_bear's Avatar
      Equipment:
      Blade Xiom Offensive S; Tmount T540; Xiom Vega Euro
      Forehand Rubber Kokutaku 007 Pro; Hurricane 3; Tibhar MX-S
      Backhand Rubber Xiom Omega 7 Hyper; Stiga DNA H; Joola Maxxx 500

      Join Date
      Jan 2012
      Location
      Philippines
      Posts
      3,814
      Reviews
      Read 77 Reviews
      Liked 1,813 Times in 1,170 Posts
      This is where "gears" come in. Hard rubbers mostly have more gears. Slow if slow shots applied and fast when fast shots are applied.

    15. Top | #12
      Baraka552 is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      TTD Member Country: Ukraine


      Join Date
      Dec 2017
      Location
      Kharkov
      Posts
      49
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear View Post
      This is where "gears" come in. Hard rubbers mostly have more gears. Slow if slow shots applied and fast when fast shots are applied.
      A bit out of logic for me considering my H3 experience but I still get it.
      Is that correct that more elastic sponge => easier to stretch => easier to «break in» => more spin & speed?

    16. Top | #13
      tomeh is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      TTD Member Country: Poland


      Join Date
      Jan 2020
      Posts
      22
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
      Gear Hyper is now a new version of the gear - more rotation.

    17. Top | #14
      alas26 is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      Established TTD Member Country: United States

      Equipment:
      Blade Nittaku Acoustic C.Pen
      Forehand Rubber DHS Skyline 2 TG NEO
      Backhand Rubber DHS Skyline 3-60

      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Posts
      133
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 42 Times in 31 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by Baraka552 View Post
      A bit out of logic for me considering my H3 experience but I still get it.
      Is that correct that more elastic sponge => easier to stretch => easier to «break in» => more spin & speed?
      Think of it like, you’ve got easier access to spin and speed. But a harder sponge will take more force to reach the limit (or bottom out), thus you can hit harder and faster with harder sponges before reaching that ceiling.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    18. Top | #15
      brokenball is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      Advanced TTD Member Country: United States


      Join Date
      Jul 2017
      Posts
      394
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 195 Times in 128 Posts
      Much depends on the damping factor of the sponge. Engineers would model the collision of a TT ball and the rubber as a mass hitting a spring and damper. TT players do not talking about the damping but it is there.
      This is like the shocks on your car. There are orifices in your shocks that restrict fluid from traveling from top to bottom then back as the car bounces up and down.

      TT rubbers have a lot of damping. The rubber gets depressed and then springs back. You want it to spring back quickly if you want a fast rubber but you don't ever see the rubber oscillate like a car will if it hits a big bump.

      Giant Dragon Guard is a Chinese anti. It has a hard and very dead sponge. If you depress it you will see the depression for a minute. This is an example of a hard but slow sponge. It is the damping that makes all the difference. The damping is factored into the coefficient of restitution.

      TT rubbers do not have gears. TT rubbers can be linear or non-linear. We would want to have a rubber that is linear over a wide range of impact speeds. A non-linear sponge would have a different coefficient of restitution for different impact speeds. I wouldn't ever thing of TT rubbers as having gears. The closest would be having a constantly variable transmission that maintain a constant RPM for the engineer over a wide range of velocities. I have a 8 speed ( gear ) transmission in my truck. It is always switching gears to keep the RPMs is a narrow range but that I can see the RPM go up and down within that range.

      Where are all the other people that claim to be engineers and physicist? They should know about this:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator
      Model a TT rubber as a mattress with a foam core. Memory foam would be very in-elastic and wouldn't spring back fast enough.

    19. The Following User Likes brokenball's Post:

      yoass (2 Weeks Ago)

    20. Top | #16
      yogi_bear is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      Equipment Expert
      Master TTD Member Country: Philippines
      yogi_bear's Avatar
      Equipment:
      Blade Xiom Offensive S; Tmount T540; Xiom Vega Euro
      Forehand Rubber Kokutaku 007 Pro; Hurricane 3; Tibhar MX-S
      Backhand Rubber Xiom Omega 7 Hyper; Stiga DNA H; Joola Maxxx 500

      Join Date
      Jan 2012
      Location
      Philippines
      Posts
      3,814
      Reviews
      Read 77 Reviews
      Liked 1,813 Times in 1,170 Posts
      The term "gear" in TT is a metaphor.

    21. Top | #17
      zeio is offline
      says IQ < 100
       
      Master TTD Member Country: Hong Kong
      zeio's Avatar

      Join Date
      Jan 2018
      Posts
      4,071
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 6,172 Times in 2,592 Posts
      "Paddles and rubbers don't generate power or energy unless you burn them." - Hard-headed Engineer

      Race for Tokyo 2020 - China, Japan
      Time capsules - 2020, 2024, 2028

    22. The Following 2 Users Like zeio's Post:

      NextLevel (2 Weeks Ago),UpSideDownCarl (2 Weeks Ago)

    23. Top | #18
      Baraka552 is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      TTD Member Country: Ukraine


      Join Date
      Dec 2017
      Location
      Kharkov
      Posts
      49
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by alas26 View Post
      Think of it like, you’ve got easier access to spin and speed. But a harder sponge will take more force to reach the limit (or bottom out), thus you can hit harder and faster with harder sponges before reaching that ceiling.
      The only thing it'll give me is more speed but not spin, you've got the same contact so the spin remains same. As far as I can imagine this.
      Quote Originally Posted by brokenball View Post
      TT rubbers have a lot of damping.
      Yeah, I've experienced that. I had some old Stiga premade and the rubber was SOFT and slowly rebounding. That was nasty. But is H3 sponge like that? My H3N was very springy which I hated.

    24. Top | #19
      brokenball is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      Advanced TTD Member Country: United States


      Join Date
      Jul 2017
      Posts
      394
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 195 Times in 128 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear View Post
      The term "gear" in TT is a metaphor.
      For what? linear or being linear over a wide range of impact speeds?

    25. Top | #20
      brokenball is offline
      This user has no status.
       
      Advanced TTD Member Country: United States


      Join Date
      Jul 2017
      Posts
      394
      Reviews
      Read 0 Reviews
      Liked 195 Times in 128 Posts
      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      "Paddles and rubbers don't generate power or energy unless you burn them." - Hard-headed Engineer

      This is a very good example of TT paddles making heat. Paddle with speed glue will generate even more heat.
      The hard headed engineer is right. No one can refute his statement.
      You burn calories. Paddles do not unless you burn them. Then they generate heat that can keep you warm or possible power a small Sterling or steam engine.

    Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

    Tags for this Thread

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •  
    Log in or Register
    BACK TO TOP