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  1. guni4you is offline
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    #1

    Single Ply hinoki blades

    Hi,

    Can someone please make a comparison between these two blades. I have pasted the links below.


    https://www.tabletennis11.com/other_...-90-hinoki-9mm


    https://www.tabletennis11.com/other_...inoki-2020-9mm


    Moreover what are the characteristics of single ply hinoki blades? Please let me know.

    Thanks.

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    #2
    Does anybody have info about them or they are not used by shakehand players?

  3. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #3
    If you like very expensive blades that are very easy to break, go for it. The Darker Speed 90 is the best blade I have ever felt. However, single ply blades are very very very very easy to break. I can't think of how many times I have explained this and people don't seem to get it. Single ply blades spit on the grain of the wood.

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    They can split like that for no reason at all. It is precisely because they are one ply.

    But if cash is no object, and you don't mind going through 10 in a year, go for it. Sometimes one will last for a while. Some people say they glue them back together. But I cannot imagine paying that much to have a blade break and then glue it back together.

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    #4
    Those old-school J-Pen single ply thick Hinoki blades... in Korea, a LOT of players would have the club owner glue it back together and you would be surprised at the positive results and how they last after gluing it back together once.

    Most of the single ply breaks are very clean and relatively easy to mend.
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    #5
    I would like to add my personal experience:
    I play with Darker Speed 90 ST for almost 2 years now, 4-5 times a week, and although I’ve accidentally hit the table several times, even dropped it 3-4 times, I had no such problem as splitting or breaking.
    Because of all those reviews that mention how easily they break, I’ve bought a second one after a few months, just in case, which is stored brand new, but thankfully no such need emerged.
    So, in my humble opinion all these reports, such as “…and you don't mind going through 10 in a year…” (!!!), are at least exaggerated.
    And yes, the feeling of kiso hinoki is unique and the quality of Darker blade are unreplaceable, for me at least!
    Also, i see no need for the extra cash for the "Imperial"...
    Last edited by momus; 02-04-2020 at 08:35 AM.

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    #6
    I have used a few single-ply kiso hinoki blades. Darker speed 90 is of the best quality. I own two Speed 90 Jpen. One is for backup but I never needed it as the one I am using is 5 years of age with no breakage.

    Just go for the Speed 90 9mm. It will give you an exceptional feel of the ball. If you pair it with soft-to-medium euro/jap rubber, you will feel every single hit. The feeling is beautiful and can't be described by words. And the feel is very unique that you can't find it in multi-ply wood blades.

    Quote Originally Posted by guni4you
    Hi,

    Can someone please make a comparison between these two blades. I have pasted the links below.


    https://www.tabletennis11.com/other_...-90-hinoki-9mm


    https://www.tabletennis11.com/other_...inoki-2020-9mm


    Moreover what are the characteristics of single ply hinoki blades? Please let me know.

    Thanks.

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by guni4you
    Does anybody have info about them or they are not used by shakehand players?
    Several of us in the same club have recently bought the PP Moby blade made by Pro Pro in Taiwan. It costs around US$130. It is a single ply, 9.5 mm thick Kiso Hinoki shake hand-style blade, weighs anywhere from 84 g to 94 g, so it is heavier than the typical carbon fiber blade. Mine with DHS GoldArc 8 Max on both sides weighs 193 g. As a comparison, my previous blade (DHS Hurricane Long 5 with Yasaka Valmo 2 mm on both sides) weighs 176 g. But after a few hours of practice I have no problem using it (no hurt shoulder or wrist as some players feared). Near table attack reaction time feels no different, switching from FH to BH, and vice versa.

    Pro Pro used to make OEM rackets for Butterfly, until BF moved their manufacturing to China. That is why they still have a supply of genuine kiso hinoki left, but no telling how much longer that supply would last. You can find Pro Pro's website at ping-pong.tw.

    We bought the blades after reading a glowing review on revspin.net. Just go there and search for "Moby" and that review would show up.

    Most of us used to play with various carbon fiber blades, but we all are happily surprised to find that the kiso hinoki racket is as fast as the carbon fiber blades, but a lot more flexible so we can do loops better (more dwell time and medium to medium-high arc), and have a lot more control (probably due to much better feel when hitting the ball), especially for the short game (pushes, blocks). It seems more forgiving than a carbon fiber blade, but is very linear, so if you want to play fast, you do need to hit a bit harder to get the same speed. The manufacturer classified it as a "medium fast, offensive+" blade.

    Personally, after 4 weeks of playing (6 hours a week), I feel I am getting good command of it, and am hitting with consistency. The smashes are just as fast as before, and the loops seem spinier but landing much more consistently where I intended. My over the table BH flicks on backspin balls seem much improved. I can actually feel the ball dwelling on the racket before shooting over.

    My doubles partner feels the biggest improvement. He used to play with a Stiga Carbonado 245 with Stiga Mantra H max both sides. With that blade the ball speed is really fast, but nearly always with a flat trajectory, every topspin comes across like a smash. Now with the PP Moby blade and the same rubbers, using the same strokes, he is getting a nice arc with good topspin, with about the same speed. Moreover, his backhand loop seems instantly much improved.

    As others have commented, the "feeling" a kiso hinoki blade gives is better than the usual blades, probably because of its "soft", flexible feel and slightly longer dwell time. I find myself enjoy playing with this blade more, and highly recommend you to try it as an alternative to the Darker Speed 90/Imperial blades.

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    Last edited by goodhand; 02-05-2020 at 04:20 AM.

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    #8
    Well I'll report back if this ever happens to me.

    Picked this up in recently.

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  9. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by momus
    I would like to add my personal experience:
    I play with Darker Speed 90 ST for almost 2 years now, 4-5 times a week, and although I’ve accidentally hit the table several times, even dropped it 3-4 times, I had no such problem as splitting or breaking.
    Because of all those reviews that mention how easily they break, I’ve bought a second one after a few months, just in case, which is stored brand new, but thankfully no such need emerged.
    So, in my humble opinion all these reports, such as “…and you don't mind going through 10 in a year…” (!!!), are at least exaggerated.
    And yes, the feeling of kiso hinoki is unique and the quality of Darker blade are unreplaceable, for me at least!
    Also, i see no need for the extra cash for the "Imperial"...
    I have a friend who used to use Darker Speed 90. That is why I have tried it. And again, it does feel better than anything else I have ever tried. There is no question about that. He used Speed 90 for a few years, and then he had 4 break within 2 months and decided to switch to a composite blade.

    They broke in his bag from pressure on the blade face. Not from hits or bangs on the blade while playing. When the first one broke, he was playing in a tournament and he noticed something felt wrong with his blade. He did not realize it was broken but it felt really weird. He thought the rubbers had come unglued or something. So he took the rubbers off and found the blade had split.

    However, it is true, if you keep the blade safe, they are amazing blades.

    And what Der said, gluing back together is easy because the break is clean. But I think most people would rather a $300.00 blade be whole rather than broken and glued.

    It is just worth knowing that it is a risk with a one ply. There is a reason I have no trouble finding those photos off the internet on a minimal search. There is also a reason top pros no longer use one ply Hinoki blades even though they really do feel better than everything else. So, it is a trade off, the risk that they are expensive and easy to break for the fact that they play amazing.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 02-05-2020 at 03:14 PM.
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  10. vik2000 is offline
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    #10
    Wouldn't this be the reason for pros to use? I would think they would pursue the best equipment even if they are more expensive because they can afford it. I have a feeling that while one ply hinoki may feel pretty good for us amateurs, they aren't suitable at the pro level.

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    #11
    9mm blades hit like a dream because they don't flex. And the Darker speed 90 feels nice because despite the 9mm stiffness the wood itself feels soft. But they are not ideal for looping. If you are coming from a blade that is both too hard and too stiff for you (ie carbonado 245) you may loop better with the speed 90. But the blade excels at hitting, it was made to hit.

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    #12
    I had a Nittaku Airuline 8.8 for I'm guessing 8 years. Nothing wrong with it. It always played great. That's a 1 ply Kiso.

    Now I have the Nittaku Sou MF R which is the same except designed for two-sided or twiddle play.

    I'm sure it'll be fine. But if it ever splits? Well that'll suck but the blade is also only around $80 so I'm not out and arm and a leg if the worse thing were to ever happen. But if it did? Guess I could always go the Nittaku Revofusion 8.5 MF R which is similar but a 3 ply. Lets hope it doesn't come to that.
    Last edited by suds79; 02-05-2020 at 06:44 PM.
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  13. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by vik2000
    Wouldn't this be the reason for pros to use? I would think they would pursue the best equipment even if they are more expensive because they can afford it. I have a feeling that while one ply hinoki may feel pretty good for us amateurs, they aren't suitable at the pro level.
    The breaking part is a reason for pros not to use. Especially if they can break in a match.

    But I believe Ryu Seung Min used a one ply. So, I guess it depends on the player.

    Also, 9mm thickness is sort of thick for a shakehand grip. So, if someone was thinking of getting a shakehand Speed 90 that would be an additional consideration.
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    If you like very expensive blades that are very easy to break, go for it. The Darker Speed 90 is the best blade I have ever felt. However, single ply blades are very very very very easy to break. I can't think of how many times I have explained this and people don't seem to get it. Single ply blades spit on the grain of the wood.

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    They can split like that for no reason at all. It is precisely because they are one ply.

    But if cash is no object, and you don't mind going through 10 in a year, go for it. Sometimes one will last for a while. Some people say they glue them back together. But I cannot imagine paying that much to have a blade break and then glue it back together.
    e
    Oh no that's a terrible thing to happen... and I see a previously lovely Senkoh 1 in the pictures too. I've had a Senkoh 1 for over 10 years before it cracked, and the replacement is still going strong after 10 years though I haven't used it as often in recent years since I started using a Chinese penhold blade. I may be one of the lucky ones though!

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Brs
    9mm blades hit like a dream because they don't flex. And the Darker speed 90 feels nice because despite the 9mm stiffness the wood itself feels soft. But they are not ideal for looping. If you are coming from a blade that is both too hard and too stiff for you (ie carbonado 245) you may loop better with the speed 90. But the blade excels at hitting, it was made to hit.
    You are partially right. The ds90 not only feels nice and soft, made to hit AND also loop like a dream, block like a Mima Ito.

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    #16

    Buy the Darker Imperial Hinoki 2020 (9mm)

    One cannot beat the feel of a traditional DS90.
    There's no overriding technical reason for a shakehand pro to change to a 1-ply Hinoki blade. Plus none of the big manufacturers make a direct equivalent to the DS90 in quality etc. This is a good thing. There are a very limited quantity of those old trees left.
    The Japanese grip style penholders absolutely adore them.
    In my experience, I had one blade,a heavily used and battered American hinoki, that split on me but it was easily repaired and felt even sweeter afterwards, funnily enough. But I have also had several normal blades either break at the neck, separated plies etc. I am sure that most long time players here have an experience of an injured blade.

    I have never seen or heard a report of a Darker DS90 splitting. But..........

    My man-maths is telling me that I need to buy the Darker Imperial Hinoki 2020 (9mm) as spare. I don't know how much longer I can hold out .
    .
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    Let's see, Darker imperial plus Dignics 09C on FH plus Dignics 05 on BH; £330+2x80=500. Using the time value of money to calculate the net present value, the future value is FV = 500 x (1 + (5% / 1) ^ (1 x 2) = £550.00. Wow! a profit. It's worth it.
    Last edited by Tinykin; 02-06-2020 at 11:26 AM.
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    #17
    Darker Imperial - 154*150 mm


    Darker Speed 90 - 154*152 mm

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by suds79
    Well I'll report back if this ever happens to me.

    Picked this up in recently.

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    Beauty! Makes you want to play J-Pen just for the heck of it. The samurai drawing is quite fitting, too (Niten Ichi-ryū? - fond memories of Tenchu, Stealth Assassins on PS1 back when I used to play videogames - sorry, to each their own fount of knowledge... the master in said art was the one end-of-level boss in the game you couldn't help but respect, made quite the impression on me). Anyhow you've got me pumped now, even just for kicks, although do you still use it for RPB? It's my favourite shot with Chinese penhold (the wrist action is phenomenal, especially for sidespin on flicks and the feeling on impact is just thrilling, somehow). I have seen pros do it on video, but I was wondering how "common" - no offense :-) - J-Pen players felt about the whole thing, especially with this kind of blade thickness and the maybe more constrained grip.

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ioiettino
    Beauty! Makes you want to play J-Pen just for the heck of it. The samurai drawing is quite fitting, too (Niten Ichi-ryū? - fond memories of Tenchu, Stealth Assassins on PS1 back when I used to play videogames - sorry, to each their own fount of knowledge... the master in said art was the one end-of-level boss in the game you couldn't help but respect, made quite the impression on me). Anyhow you've got me pumped now, even just for kicks, although do you still use it for RPB? It's my favourite shot with Chinese penhold (the wrist action is phenomenal, especially for sidespin on flicks and the feeling on impact is just thrilling, somehow). I have seen pros do it on video, but I was wondering how "common" - no offense :-) - J-Pen players felt about the whole thing, especially with this kind of blade thickness and the maybe more constrained grip.
    I will use RPB of the occasional Long Pip block or chop.

    When I play dual inverted, I have a standard Cpen for that.

    I can hit a strong RPB but my brain is hardwired at this point for TPB and that's more consistent for me. So I imagine this blade & setup will become my main style. But truth be told, I probably each style about the same.

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  20. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #20
    They really are beautiful too. I give the warning about them being easy break so, that, if someone decides to get one, they are buying with eyes open. I, personally, would much rather be forewarned about that possibility and have it not happen than not be warned and have it happen to me.

    But they really are beautiful and do play amazing. So, if you can afford it and know the risks, then, I would actually say it would be worth it.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 02-07-2020 at 01:54 AM.
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