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    1. Top | #41
      yoass is offline
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      Thnx NL. Informative.

      Note that I didn’t mention pricing at all; that would, in my view, would be irrelevant when discussing qualitative aspects.

      The flaw in considering ‘brands’ as having qualities at all, to me, is indeed a deep one.

      When considering brand as a label for a set of products, by extension, I would call it a fallacy to cherrypick a few items and draw conclusions from that.

      And even if you do allow for cherrypicking a selection, I would still advocate for “the needs of the many” rather than “the needs of the few” in determining what carries the most weight.

      ‘Nuff said. I guess. I’ll let things stand.

    2. Top | #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by yoass View Post
      Thnx NL. Informative.

      Note that I didn’t mention pricing at all; that would, in my view, would be irrelevant when discussing qualitative aspects.

      The flaw in considering ‘brands’ as having qualities at all, to me, is indeed a deep one.

      When considering brand as a label for a set of products, by extension, I would call it a fallacy to cherrypick a few items and draw conclusions from that.

      And even if you do allow for cherrypicking a selection, I would still advocate for “the needs of the many” rather than “the needs of the few” in determining what carries the most weight.

      ‘Nuff said. I guess. I’ll let things stand.
      Why cherrypicking? Isn't it possible that people may not see things the way you do? Or that there might be people who loved the very products that you found disappointing? Are there both pros and amateurs using FX?

      Brands obviously don't have qualities. But yoass has a brand on tabletennisdaily. We all have brands - they are our identities. Obviously, it isn't quite the same thing in corporate business, but the goal is similar - to give a certain reliable image to the consumer to make judgments easy.

      Moreover, looking at major contributions is important when judging things. Do we judge Kobe as a legend because of the matches where he was injured or the matches where he did great things? If someone is very innovative, they will have high points and some lows. But if the high points are subject to the 80-20 rule, we see that Butterfly is really dominant. Do we need to look at every single rubber when their innovation can be placed in perspective? OR can we see how Tenergy, Sriver or Dignics impacted the industry? And to be honest, do amateurs really play that much worse with those rubbers?

      A lot of opinion on what it is best for an amateur to use vs a pro involves a lot of subjectivity etc.
      For the most part, we largely aspire to play like pros. We may not use exactly what they use, but IMO, what we use isn't so different that there is a huge bifurcation. Ultimately, Brand is a combination of product quality and market perception. Butterfly tends to win on these counts, but one could definitely analyze and segment the market in a way that this matters less. And I am not even quibbling with your view of this, but since you seem to care about the greatest number, you should really be talking about cheap Chinese rubbers, and not overpriced Gewo.
      Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

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    4. Top | #43
      yoass is offline
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      I don't care about great numbers ("market share"), nor does price point play a part — in these considerations. But thanks for the relativisation (and kudos for mosying towards "bifurcation" along the way). :-)

    5. Top | #44
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      I am shocked at the ability of some people to overthink or psychoanalyze a question that really doesn't require it

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    7. Top | #45
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      First off, I want to address Kobe. Kobe was an amazing player, in part because he has the sublime distinction of having missed more shots than any player in the history of the NBA! Wait, what did I just say. Yep. Kobe missed more shots than anyone. And why did that make him great. Because he did not look at it as a failure. He faced his failures and kept plugging away and also was the #4 all time scorer in NBA history. Could he have been #4 if he had not faced what most people would see as failure and keep on working?

      Okay, now to brands and BEST.

      Part of the problem with the discussion is that different people have different definitions for best. And in a certain sense, there are many definitions for best, but there is also no real such thing as best. So a discussion about best ends up being a lot like a discussion about Best of All Time or, what some people call GOAT.

      So, I think it is okay that different people like different brands for different things or different reasons.

      One thing I can say for sure, for me, HRT (Huaruite), the Chinese brand that makes clone blades that are just complete copies, to me that is the WORST brand.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 02-18-2020 at 02:35 PM.
      Spin Everything.

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    9. Top | #46
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by yoass View Post
      I don't care about great numbers ("market share"), nor does price point play a part — in these considerations. But thanks for the relativisation (and kudos for mosying towards "bifurcation" along the way). :-)
      Advocating for the needs of the many without price point playing a part? Nor market share? Sounds like double speak to me

    10. Top | #47
      lVegita is offline
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      Putting "best" at the title is a recipe for the Armageddon at any thread.

      Lets keep it simple:
      If you had to choose only one brand to supply ALL your TT stuff, for personal use, for the rest of your life, what would it be?

      Pick one, and that's all.

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    12. Top | #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by lVegita View Post
      Putting "best" at the title is a recipe for the Armageddon at any thread.

      Lets keep it simple:
      If you had to choose only one brand to supply ALL your TT stuff, for personal use, for the rest of your life, what would it be?

      Pick one, and that's all.
      Nittaku

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    14. Top | #49
      yoass is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      Advocating for the needs of the many without price point playing a part? Nor market share? Sounds like double speak to me
      Because I don’t think price is relevant for “best”, and I also don’t think
      “widely used” or “popular” has anything to do with it.

      That said, “best” is positively screaming for derailment, as has been noted.

    15. Top | #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by merlin el mago View Post
      The forest won’t let you see the trees.

      Let's talk only by quality like some people said.

      Rubbers: DHS & Butterfly or v.v.
      Blades: Butterfly & Nittaku or v.v.
      Balls: Nittaku
      I actually think a wider range of people would say:
      Rubbers: DHS & Butterfly
      Blades: Butterfly & Stiga
      Balls: NIttaku

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    17. Top | #51
      merlin el mago is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by pfalconett680 View Post
      I actually think a wider range of people would say:
      Rubbers: DHS & Butterfly
      Blades: Butterfly & Stiga
      Balls: NIttaku
      Stiga blades lowered a lot the quality, actually Nittaku are far better. Only some high priced Stiga still good.

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    19. Top | #52
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by merlin el mago View Post
      Stiga blades lowered a lot the quality, actually Nittaku are far better. Only some high priced Stiga still good.
      Yeah before the Carbonado series, I had written off Stiga blades as junk.

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    21. Top | #53
      lVegita is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      Yeah before the Carbonado series, I had written off Stiga blades as junk.
      I know you had some bad experiences with Stiga Eternity. What was it?

      I may have one coming on the next days
      Last edited by lVegita; 02-19-2020 at 07:14 PM.

    22. Top | #54
      yoass is offline
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      I glue a lot for other people and am extra careful when prying off rubber from Stiga blades. I have seen the top veneer splinter.

      I’ve also seen chunks of the entire top ply coming loose, but I have my suspicions about these blades’ history of (ab)use. (I have also noted horizontal cracks at blade necks, not just with Stiga blades, and do attribute these to abusive aggrevation on the player’s part; can’t blame the maker for that).

      Anyway, splintering is in my experience the main issue. Sealing the blade solves that; USD Carl has posted good content about that.

      Oh, and the overall finish level can be less than optimal. That’s not just Stiga, but it has been an issue with Stiga blades in the past. Sometimes a little sanding/polishing is just the final touch. Especially on the wings of the blade.

      Now writing this it may look like much, but it really isn’t. Just a bit of sanding and sealing and it’s all good; a worthwile few minutes.

    23. Top | #55
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by lVegita View Post
      I know you had some bad experiences with Stiga Eternity. What was it?

      I may have one coming on the net days
      What Yoass said. I don't seal my blades. So if sealing is the main issue cool. But they also don't finish their wings well and often have product inconsistency. But some of these things may be better now. Eternity was a great and powerful wood blade but the splintering just made me realize I had no reason to deal with crap. if they can't do what Butterfly does to resolve the issue so be it.

    24. Top | #56
      lVegita is offline
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      Ah, I see. Glad the problem wasn't that it broke in two pieces haha.
      Guess I will not have problems with it then. I always seal my blades, and I also always refinish the wings and handle to my liking right out of the box. I kinda like the whole process of preparing a new blade actually.

    25. Top | #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by lVegita View Post
      Ah, I see. Glad the problem wasn't that it broke in two pieces haha.
      Guess I will not have problems with it then. I always seal my blades, and I also always refinish the wings and handle to my liking right out of the box. I kinda like the whole process of preparing a new blade actually.
      Completely agree. Nothing beats a bit of carpentry

      Honestly - Stiga blades are great if you’re ok to seal them.

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    27. Top | #58
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      If I could chose a sponsor, overall, it would be Tibhar, I like the rubbers, Genius, Evolution, Aurus.

      Their blades, Stratus PW and CB, Force pro.

      their clothing is very nice and they have a lot of good quality shoes.

      The reallity is,I'm loyal to some material I just found to be great and buy it over and over again when it's needed. HRT Clipper (5 year old), palio hadou 40+ and nittaku g1, li ning shirts and mizuno shoes.

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    29. Top | #59
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by lVegita View Post
      Ah, I see. Glad the problem wasn't that it broke in two pieces haha.
      Guess I will not have problems with it then. I always seal my blades, and I also always refinish the wings and handle to my liking right out of the box. I kinda like the whole process of preparing a new blade actually.
      The sealing and the sanding I never minded. I had a few blades delaminate. The plies simply separated for no reason. They were not expensive blades. I viewed them as though they were made to almost be disposable.

      By the way, I have seen many Stiga blades snap at the neck from something no other blade I have ever used would break from.

      So, they do have a lot of blades that are very easy to break. It may actually be part of what makes some of those cheaper Stiga blades feel good. But, at a certain point you do get tired of it. Having a handle with a gash sanded into it by sloppy finishing. Having a blade with the lens cut out cut funny so the lens was in the handle at an angle. Things that would make you think the blade was counterfeit. But it wasn't. Just stuff that is sloppy. Like the guy doing the finishing has had 10 too many beers and is hammered and can't see the blade while he is using the machinery.

      Hopefully they have improved on that stuff. But.....I definitely would not call them a best brand given how much shoddy work I have seen from them over the years. I mean, pathetically shoddy. So, even though they have a lot of blades that I think feel great, and back in the early 90s they also had the good workmanship, they would be low on my list.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 02-20-2020 at 02:22 AM.

    30. Top | #60
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      The sealing and the sanding I never minded. I had a few blades delaminate. The plies simply separated for no reason. They were not expensive blades. I viewed them as though they were made to almost be disposable.

      By the way, I have seen many Stiga blades snap at the neck from something no other blade I have ever used would break from.

      So, they do have a lot of blades that are very easy to break. It may actually be part of what makes some of those cheaper Stiga blades feel good. But, at a certain point you do get tired of it. Having a handle with a gash sanded into it by sloppy finishing. Having a blade with the lens cut out cut funny so the lens was in the handle at an angle. Things that would make you think the blade was counterfeit. But it wasn't. Just stuff that is sloppy. Like the guy doing the finishing has had 10 too many beers and is hammered and can't see the blade while he is using the machinery.

      Hopefully they have improved on that stuff. But.....I definitely would not call them a best brand given how much shoddy work I have seen from them over the years. I mean, pathetically shoddy. So, even though they have a lot of blades that I think feel great, and back in the early 90s they also had the good workmanship, they would be low on my list.
      Here, I found a photo of one of the things I am talking about:

      Click image for larger version. 

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      That just should not happen. And that is fresh out of the box. I think that may have been Phamster's blade. But I saw that happen to two Stiga blades that Smash_Fan got also. to me, that is beyond negligent.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 02-20-2020 at 02:56 AM.

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