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    1. Top | #21
      Baal is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by merlin el mago View Post
      Balls without doubt still Nittaku ***
      Yes. This also.

    2. Top | #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by merlin el mago View Post
      Balls without doubt still Nittaku ***
      Don't know man, this Chanel ball seems gold to me

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    4. Top | #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by lVegita View Post
      Don't know man, this Chanel ball seems gold to me
      Not seems, guy is pure gold.

    5. Top | #24
      yoass is online now
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      Best Brand Over-all?

      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      Butterfly.
      I like some, quite a few even, products marketed under that brand. I dislike others.

      Like: Tenergy 05, Sriver-L of yore, Dignics 05, Dignics 80, SpinArt, Rozena, Viscaria, Innerforce ALC, sweatbands, bags, polo shirts, CentreFold 25 table, "Elite Clip" net set, most of the Lazoline shoes.

      Don't care: Quite a bit - Tenergy 80, Tenergy 64, Tackiness C, Roundell.

      Dislike/disappointing: Sriver-S of yore, Sriver FX, Tackiness D, Bryce, Bryce Speed, Tenergy *-fx, Innerforce ALC-S, Viscaria Lite, Freitas ALC, Harimoto ALC, all balls, glue, towels.

      If we're going to compare "brands" by comparing the products marketed under that brand name, GEWO is actually doing better than Butterfly for me. I haven't seen anything sold as "GEWO" that really disappointed me, whereas many of the GEWO products exceeded my expectations; blades, clothing, shoes, glue etc. fit that pattern.

      In a head to head of BTY vs GEWO by way of a product catalogue mano a mano I'd choose the latter over the former, then. Using the same comparison method, I'd probably go with Nittaku over Butterfly too; and Butterfly vs. Yasaka, Xiom would be a tie, or close to a tie.
      Last edited by yoass; 02-15-2020 at 12:15 AM.

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    7. Top | #25
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      Still subjective but Xiom over the years has really done a good job not just in marketing but developing advanced rubbers and also good blades. The newer rubbers now can even be better than Tenergy 05 which has been the benchmark of most rubbers. For the blades, Xiom has made good ones that can compete with TB ALC or Viscaria. STIGA has improved too in terms of rubbers and blades but I wish they will not stay in their comfort zone in terms of blade design and rubber design. Also, I wish they would listen to their customers more. Joola is interesting as a shift in management also changed the way they designed their products. With an American ownership now I am seeing changes and also hope for much better products. Right now, Joola seem to consult customers and listen to what they say.

    8. Top | #26
      Baal is online now
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      What do people who are paid to win use most often? And for us mere mortals, how is the quality control?

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    10. Top | #27
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      For bang for the buck I like Yasaka Rakza 7 in its different forms. I buy from tabletennis11 so I get four for about $27p-$28 US. DHS H3 Neo commercial is also a good deal.
      My first Yinhe Apollo was very tacky. My second Yinhe Apollo was nothing like the first one. It was like they had a secret formula and lost it. Butterfly is also good but does not pass the bang for the buck test.

      The pushblocker said he would buy many rubbers and try them before choosing one. That doesn't speak well of the quality of LP manufacturers. I don't see how one screws that up though unless they are forced to change by the ITFF like Grass DTecs had to change.

    11. Top | #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by brokenball View Post
      For bang for the buck I like Yasaka Rakza 7 in its different forms. I buy from tabletennis11 so I get four for about $27p-$28 US. DHS H3 Neo commercial is also a good deal.
      My first Yinhe Apollo was very tacky. My second Yinhe Apollo was nothing like the first one. It was like they had a secret formula and lost it. Butterfly is also good but does not pass the bang for the buck test.

      The pushblocker said he would buy many rubbers and try them before choosing one. That doesn't speak well of the quality of LP manufacturers. I don't see how one screws that up though unless they are forced to change by the ITFF like Grass DTecs had to change.
      Bang for the buck is a totally subjective measure. So it is a pretty pointless discussion when people are generally trying to get direct comparisons between various options.

    12. Top | #29
      lasta is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zyu81 View Post
      Bang for the buck is a totally subjective measure. So it is a pretty pointless discussion when people are generally trying to get direct comparisons between various options.
      Actually bang for the buck is more objective than what most people "directly compare" on. At least you get the denomiator.

    13. Top | #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      What do people who are paid to win use most often? And for us mere mortals, how is the quality control?
      Exactly. The percentage who don't use DHS or Butterfly on the pro circuit is probably measured in low single digit numbers. Even a lot of players that are sponsored by the other brands tend to use Butterfly or DHS rubbers.

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    15. Top | #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by lasta View Post
      Actually bang for the buck is more objective than what most people "directly compare" on. At least you get the denomiator.
      Not at all. Once you are talking about bang for the buck, you are already accepting that there is lesser quality in the cheaper versions. How worth it that sacrifice is, is totally subjective on the player's skill level, playing style etc. Also, realize that spending 70 dollars on a rubber that can last for a few months is totally unacceptable to some people, whereas others wouldn't even bat an eye. That depends on financial situation, how much one is willing to spend, perceived value, etc. Way too many variables. Not objective at all.

    16. Top | #32
      yoass is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by mart1nandersson View Post
      Exactly. The percentage who don't use DHS or Butterfly on the pro circuit is probably measured in low single digit numbers. Even a lot of players that are sponsored by the other brands tend to use Butterfly or DHS rubbers.
      I don't buy much into this line of argument.

      When Formula 1 drivers drive professionally (i.e.: when driving competitively in a Formula 1 race), they get to utilise equipment from a narrow, specialised palette, which is additionally subject to sponsor constraints.

      Similarly, when the absolute TT top completes, they choose equipment to match their specific skills and needs at that level, within sponsor contract constraints.

      Neither of these examples is very indicative on what suits the needs for equipments used to perform tasks in less extreme (in many ways) circumstances. A Formula 1 car would not be all that good for the daily commute, and Werner Schlagers', Dima's, Timo's, Xu Xin's blade will probably not be very good for my game, and I suspect not for many others as well.

      Level-relative is real, and a pro's needs do not equate the needs of the hoi polloi.
      Last edited by yoass; 02-18-2020 at 08:53 AM.

    17. Top | #33
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      Kind of agree but I interpreted the question as "what's the best table tennis brand".

      Viscaria, W968, H3N, D/T05 etc may not be the best equipment for everyone but it's for sure what the best table tennis players in the world use with very few exceptions. I seriously doubt that they would continue to use this equipment if something better was available. They chose the best as that equipment is what puts food on their table.

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    19. Top | #34
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      Continuing from the previous post...

      In terms of all-wood blades, Stiga still has the edge for shakehand, and Yasaka for penhold.
      In terms of composite blades, Butterfly is king of the hill around the world, and DHS in China in recent years. Demand for Viscaria must be so high for them to "revive" the model in Japan. Stiga has lost so much share to Butterfly in China thanks to ZJK. He changed the landscape virtually overnight by shifting the perception that tacky rubber pairs best with all-wood blade.

      In terms of tacky rubber, DHS no doubt. Nothing will come close to it in China. It appears to be gaining ground in Japan.
      In terms of grippy rubber, Butterfly is doing really well in the last few years. ESN not so much, with brands putting orders on hold.
      Race for Tokyo 2020 - China, Japan
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    21. Top | #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      In terms of all-wood blades, Stiga still has the edge for shakehand, and Yasaka for penhold.
      In terms of composite blades, Butterfly is king of the hill around the world...
      good sum up imho..

    22. Top | #36
      yoass is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by mart1nandersson View Post
      Kind of agree but I interpreted the question as "what's the best table tennis brand".
      That is the question.

      Quote Originally Posted by mart1nandersson View Post
      Viscaria, W968, H3N, D/T05 etc may not be the best equipment for everyone but it's for sure what the best table tennis players in the world use with very few exceptions. I seriously doubt that they would continue to use this equipment if something better was available. They chose the best as that equipment is what puts food on their table.
      What I pointed out, in "level relative" remarks, that this answers a different question, i.e. "what's the best TT equipment for absolute top players?".

      And I would argue (1) that the question is unfounded. You don't hit balls with a brand, you do it with a blade with rubbers attached to it using glue.

      If we're being (2) overly generous, and interpret the question as "which brand has a product catalogue that we can, as a whole, evaluate as the best" then we still have to take into account that the product catalogue we're grading does not just contain highflyers (i.e., Tenergy 05) but also utter lemons (i.e., Tackiness D, Roundell). And we even more need to do justice to the notion that a given product is not "the best" in general, categorically. Dignics 80, I'd say, is an excellent rubber, but the fraction of the TT population for which it is suited is really quite small.

      So, when determining the best brand by looking at a list of products, I'd suggest to consider that entire product range — and also to consider for who these products make sense.

      And, I'd boldly state here, following that line of reasoning, that Vega Pro is a better rubber than Tenergy 05. It's clearly not so for Timo Boll, but for every Timo Boll there are thousands of not-quite-Timo-level players for which Vega Pro is way more suited. Is it the fastest? Most spinny? Highest top end? No. More suitable for a wider range of players? Yes. Hence: better.
      Last edited by yoass; 02-18-2020 at 08:54 AM.

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    24. Top | #37
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      Yoass the attorney...
      Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

    25. Top | #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      Yoass the attorney...
      Well, umm, thanks, I suppose?

      But now you're here... do you really think I'm just going the way of full rhetorics, playing the devil's advocate, putting up straw men?

      FWIW, I actually don't think I am. I think the main premise here is really deeply flawed.

    26. Top | #39
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      The forest won’t let you see the trees.

      Let's talk only by quality like some people said.

      Rubbers: DHS & Butterfly or v.v.
      Blades: Butterfly & Nittaku or v.v.
      Balls: Nittaku

    27. Top | #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by yoass View Post
      Well, umm, thanks, I suppose?

      But now you're here... do you really think I'm just going the way of full rhetorics, playing the devil's advocate, putting up straw men?

      FWIW, I actually don't think I am. I think the main premise here is really deeply flawed.
      Deeply flawed? I don't see how. Just because something is open to other perspectives (and the perspectives can still be debated) doesn't make it deeply flawed. I honestly don't think pro equipment is that different from that of amateurs. I think most of your objections are largely driven by Butterfly pricing.

      It is okay to subjectively say that a brand doesn't work for you. But when I think of reputation for good product and popularity with top players, I think of Butterfly. DHS obviously with the top Chinese players. I can understand why someone may support or defend another brand. And I don't think your arguments are all bad - I think they make some good points. But language like "deeply flawed" reveal a certain resolve and denial of other perspectives that lead to my "attorney" comment.

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