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    1. Top | #1
      ContraDL is offline
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      How to explain why somebody must be passive when exercising

      Hello,

      I got into a heated argument with my dad about how we should practice. We both aren't TT geniuses and don't really know how to play much, but I took a few practices and there I learned some exercises. In almost every exercise one player was active and other one was passively returning ball. No matter the exercise (forehand-backhand on the same spot, three forehand from one side of table to other). He said that this is type of practice is useless, because in real match, you will never have somebody return the ball like that; or he says, you will never see someone return the ball on the same place. And stuff like, you don't need to practice how to correctly hit the ball, because you need to start learning from 7 years of age to be able to hit the ball properly. You will never get there now.

      Thing is, since Corona we are stuck home and have plenty of time and want to use this time to improve. I saw the little kids train the way I want it, I saw real coach give me same exercises and I see pro players do the same on youtube. Can you guys give me some strong reason on why you should practice like this? Or it doesn't matter since we won't be able to play properly anyway

      Thanks for your replies

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    3. Top | #2
      yogi_bear is offline
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      1. Placing the ball on the same spot develops control and consistency of placement and it is being taught as part of the basic strokes.
      2. A stroke like block and some other strokes have both active abd passive versions depending on the skill of rhe players and also the intended drills.
      3. Yes, you do need to learn how to correctly hit or contact the ball no matter what your age is. Again, it is part of the basic strokes and it can be learned even with people aging 60 y.o.

    4. Top | #3
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      contradl
      you both have a point.
      regular practice helps you learn basic stroke and footwork
      irregular placement helps develop footwork
      heres a very basic thing to try which is a bit of both
      exercise 1
      player 1
      feeds bh block to 2 spots 12 inches apart nice and steady rallies should be 10 or 20 shots
      player 2
      plays fh topspin to each ball moving correctly each time players should play at the speed which allows 10 to 20 shots per rally
      once you can do this
      exercise 2 is still simple but much more difficult:-
      player 1 feeds ball to same 2 spots , but at random. player2 has to still manage to get in position and play fh topspin for each position
      i dont know what your level is but these 2 exercises will show you how both types of practice are necessary
      even pro players do both types
      let us know you get on
      good luck
      Last edited by pingpongpaddy; 03-31-2020 at 03:57 PM.
      ppp

      bh
      spinpips chop2
      yinhe ayous wood 1 ply
      fh
      max moristo sp

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    6. Top | #4
      NextLevel is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by ContraDL View Post
      Hello,

      I got into a heated argument with my dad about how we should practice. We both aren't TT geniuses and don't really know how to play much, but I took a few practices and there I learned some exercises. In almost every exercise one player was active and other one was passively returning ball. No matter the exercise (forehand-backhand on the same spot, three forehand from one side of table to other). He said that this is type of practice is useless, because in real match, you will never have somebody return the ball like that; or he says, you will never see someone return the ball on the same place. And stuff like, you don't need to practice how to correctly hit the ball, because you need to start learning from 7 years of age to be able to hit the ball properly. You will never get there now.

      Thing is, since Corona we are stuck home and have plenty of time and want to use this time to improve. I saw the little kids train the way I want it, I saw real coach give me same exercises and I see pro players do the same on youtube. Can you guys give me some strong reason on why you should practice like this? Or it doesn't matter since we won't be able to play properly anyway

      Thanks for your replies
      Well, it depends on what your goals are - if you want to improve, you need controlled drills to understand your game better. I suspect your father doesn't find technical development fun and just doesn't even want to do it. This is not an uncommon attitude. In fact, one of the things about good table tennis players is that at some level, they love the rhythm of hitting the ball. I find that this love of the rhythm of hitting the ball is what makes drills bearable while the drills might be boring for others who don't care for this rhythm. You may have the love while your father may not.

      Your father is to pessimistic about technical development. You can't develop technique without an element of repetition and control. And while it *might* be true that if you didn't start learning to hit the ball properly when you were young that you may never hit the ball properly as an adult, it doesn't mean that adults can't hit the ball better and better relative to how they hit the ball before. I started playing club table tennis in 2011 in my 30s. That said I got some good coaching. And I also liked drills and ball control. The benefit is that if you repeat things in a controlled fashion, you can evaluate the impact of small changes. If everything is changing, then you can't figure out how to modify your technique for hitting the ball because you can't get a handle on why you are missing. Also, some drills repeat common patterns that may show up in your play. Or they may help you see where certain problems are. OR they may show how fast you can do something. For example, I like to do one forehand, one backhand repeatedly because it shows me whether my strokes can be adapted to my playing distance. People who just do forehand or backhand without combining sometimes develop a stroke they can play on backhand close to the table but a forehand they can only play if they step back 10 ft. So they can't use both close to or far from the table, for example.

      OF course, you also need to practice some uncontrolled drills, but usually, the focus on those drills is to use the skills and techniques that you have developed in controlled drills but at a speed and pace that is closer to match play and forces you to adapt quickly as match play pushes you to adapt faster to random things. But there are tools we use in table tennis as you get advanced to limit the possibilities of the opponent.

      Table tennis is really difficult. IT can take years for something you practice to show up in match play at the level you would like it to. But maybe your father doesn't care but if you are young ,you clearly have more than 10 years. Like me, I started 10 years ago and now I am a decent club player. I don't think the issue is whether this practice is valuable but whether your father has the temperament for it.
      Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

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    8. Top | #5
      ContraDL is offline
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      Thank you so much for your time and replies. For those wondering, am 25 years old. I also understand that practice can become boring for some, but I think I got the gist of what you said. Basically:
      • is never to late to learn how to play correctly
      • you can work on stroke or footwork or both; but all requires controled movement and repetition


      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      I don't think the issue is whether this practice is valuable but whether your father has the temperament for it.
      Well, the issue certainly was how we should practice, since we started practice, but you are right. He is not that into it as I am

    9. Top | #6
      Kuba Hajto is offline
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      I think passive exercises are boring to him because, in the beginning, they are rather easy. The ball with little spin is easy to put on a table. Keep practicing and developing your shot spin and quality and he will quickly find that he can not control your shots easily. Maybe then he will be more eager to train. When there is little challenge people seem to not care about it. I thought I was good at blocking, but after Franz_Hamasaki (user of this forum) pointed me I was s****e (thank you very much friendo) I was motivated to improve it.


      If you want to get this excercices more challenge, then pick a part of the table, glue a rectangular piece of tape on the table and make a competition who can get more balls in that area in a row. Older people are sometimes like kids, they need to be entertained to train. I do also like drills that need both precision and footwork, for example player 1 plays diagonally, players 2 goes down the line, you can always switch roles. BTW finding sparing partners outside the club who want to train and improve is rather hard, so don't get easily discouraged.


      Also if you need proof that passive game is a must look at Waldner. Based on my rather short and limited memory he is the very controlled type of player who beats young offensors with sheer control.
      Last edited by Kuba Hajto; 03-31-2020 at 05:17 PM.

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    11. Top | #7
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      It looks like PingPongPaddy and NextLevel gave the good info that you need both.

      Here is a video that explains some of the random element stuff and why it is useful to have some random element drills in your training. But you still need to learn to grove your strokes and improve you strokes.



      But developing your strokes is also needed. TT is a complex sport. More complex than many because of how close the opponent is and how soon you have to be set for the next ball. So improving form is both important and not so easy.

      In addition to the block drills you are referring to that your father does not seem to appreciate, you can also do shadow strokes in front of a mirror to try to help improve your form on the strokes and get them into muscle memory. The mirror helps you see if your strokes are decent and adjust the form in real time.
      Spin Everything.

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    13. Top | #8
      NextLevel is online now
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      There is another point to make - usually, in a real match, if you can control the ball of your opponent, it is very important because the more power you put into a shot relative to your technical limit, the harder it is to recover from playing the shot. Moreover, many people can't repeatedly control their most powerful shots.

      When you look at pros, you may think that they are hitting with full power, but what they are really doing is using years of practiced and optimized technique and often borrowing the power of the opponent except on easier balls where they want to kill the ball.

      LEarning to play drills where you control the opponent's power helps your defence and lets you get better at ball control. Ultimately, table tennis is ball control sport, not necessarily a hit the ball as hard as you can sport. Also being able to put the ball exactly where you want to put it becomes more important as you get better.

      The problem is that when two players are both playing hard, it is hard for both players to play with good control. So in most drills, someone is playing with power and the other person is playing with placement and control so that the drill can continue and everyone can develop their ball feeling. When both pros play with power, they usually have to play at a distance where both of them have time to see the ball well. But because of the inverse relationshio between power and control, it is easy to play too hard and have the ball blocked past you if you do not find the right balance. But it is hard to practice power and control at the same time - better to do so with a controlled drill of some sort. It can't be completely random like match play.

      Of course the closer to match play it is, the better your measure of how you would do in a match, but the worse your ability to learn something fundamental unless you have mastered the fundamentals so that you can build on top of them.

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    15. Top | #9
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      There is another point to make - usually, in a real match, if you can control the ball of your opponent, it is very important because the more power you put into a shot relative to your technical limit, the harder it is to recover from playing the shot. Moreover, many people can't repeatedly control their most powerful shots.

      When you look at pros, you may think that they are hitting with full power, but what they are really doing is using years of practiced and optimized technique and often borrowing the power of the opponent except on easier balls where they want to kill the ball.

      LEarning to play drills where you control the opponent's power helps your defence and lets you get better at ball control. Ultimately, table tennis is ball control sport, not necessarily a hit the ball as hard as you can sport. Also being able to put the ball exactly where you want to put it becomes more important as you get better.

      The problem is that when two players are both playing hard, it is hard for both players to play with good control. So in most drills, someone is playing with power and the other person is playing with placement and control so that the drill can continue and everyone can develop their ball feeling. When both pros play with power, they usually have to play at a distance where both of them have time to see the ball well. But because of the inverse relationshio between power and control, it is easy to play too hard and have the ball blocked past you if you do not find the right balance. But it is hard to practice power and control at the same time - better to do so with a controlled drill of some sort. It can't be completely random like match play.

      Of course the closer to match play it is, the better your measure of how you would do in a match, but the worse your ability to learn something fundamental unless you have mastered the fundamentals so that you can build on top of them.
      This is an excellent post.

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    17. Top | #10
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by ContraDL View Post
      Thank you so much for your time and replies. For those wondering, am 25 years old. I also understand that practice can become boring for some, but I think I got the gist of what you said. Basically:
      • is never to late to learn how to play correctly
      • you can work on stroke or footwork or both; but all requires controled movement and repetition




      Well, the issue certainly was how we should practice, since we started practice, but you are right. He is not that into it as I am
      As long as you get that, part of what adding random elements to training does is give you the ability to read and plan based on what you see your opponent do, it is okay to do both random drills and block drills. You develop different skills from each. And since table tennis is such a challenging sport, developing technique using both set drills and drills that add elements of random practice are valuable.

      An aside: it is true that most players who are older and do not already have decent technique will not develop decent technique, it is not impossible.

      How NextLevel explained that you can make your technique better than it was is really enough. But, if you really work on it, if you really figure out what needs fixing in your technique and train to improve it, it is possible. The older you are, the more work it would take. But it is possible.

      But, still, at some point, especially as your technique improves, you have to add more and more of the random element to your training.

    18. Top | #11
      zyu81 is offline
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      Hopefully the OP can provide some clarification on what he means by passive versus active. It was mentioned that doing random drills versus fixed drills was one portion of the disagreement, but passive versus active could also mean blocking flat versus kicking/adding spin which was not mentioned. Obviously the type of drills you do depends on where you are in your development but given that OP states he is a beginner, it would make sense to do more fixed drills and not worry about playing spin versus spin. One mistake a lot of new players make is trying to loop or even loop-loop before they can counter the ball consistently. Don't make this mistake. If you can't consistently counter at least 50 or 100 times going slow you should not be worrying about looping yet. So that is one recommendation. Obviously worrying about speed should also not be a concern early in the development.

      But then again, a separate discussion is making your practice sessions work based on what your practice partner's preferences are. If he really isn't willing to do certain types of drills with you, you may just have to compromise.

    19. Top | #12
      ContraDL is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zyu81 View Post
      Hopefully the OP can provide some clarification on what he means by passive versus active. It was mentioned that doing random drills versus fixed drills was one portion of the disagreement, but passive versus active could also mean blocking flat versus kicking/adding spin which was not mentioned.
      Yeah, by being passive I mean about one player being focused on executing exercise, correct strokes, movement and ball placement while other is there to return the ball on the agreed returning point. At the current level, adding spin to return would have an outcome of less than 10 repetitions, so I am not yet there.

      I showed him your replies and he agreed to mix things up, so we all good here. We will start slowly, so he won't be bored by it (practicing for too long). I was thinking of doing 5min forehand-forehand warm-up. Then 5min backhand-backhand. And then 10 min, 10 min, 10min exercises and after that some 30 min play so we both get what we want. I think for start this will be good.

      I know this might be hard question, since you didn't see me play, but are there any allround good exercises which covers most bases? If you would to pick 3-6 which one would you recommend?

      Thanks!

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    21. Top | #13
      pingpongpaddy is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by ContraDL View Post
      Yeah, by being passive I mean about one player being focused on executing exercise, correct strokes, movement and ball placement while other is there to return the ball on the agreed returning point. At the current level, adding spin to return would have an outcome of less than 10 repetitions, so I am not yet there.

      I showed him your replies and he agreed to mix things up, so we all good here. We will start slowly, so he won't be bored by it (practicing for too long). I was thinking of doing 5min forehand-forehand warm-up. Then 5min backhand-backhand. And then 10 min, 10 min, 10min exercises and after that some 30 min play so we both get what we want. I think for start this will be good.

      I know this might be hard question, since you didn't see me play, but are there any allround good exercises which covers most bases? If you would to pick 3-6 which one would you recommend?

      Thanks!
      hi contradl
      you seem to have the right approach mapped out.
      Its important to appreciate that when doing these drills if your idea of what good fh and bh should look like is good
      then the drills will be very beneficial quite quickly but if your ideas are incorrect then you may go down the wrong track.
      you should google "pingskills" or tom lodziak to check out good form for basic skills before you start

      basic exercises
      bh to bh counter and block. by the end of your isolation you should be able to do 100 without error.
      to do this aim at each others bats and play at speed to make targets in good time slow down if failing
      1st target 10 2nd target 20 then 50. when you can make 50 a 100 is just a matter of discipline.
      i put this first because feeding with bh block is the major tool in systematic training. when you do bh you should face each other and play from middle of body.
      Next
      fh topspin from fh corner to bh corner same targets. swap roles every 5 minutes so both experience bh feeding and working
      Next
      fh topspin to fh topspin
      same targets and methods

      most beginners find it very much more difficult to do this in a controlled manner
      google and pingskills .is your friend
      if you have a bunch of balls then multiball is your friend. beginners can learn to feed multiball topspin quite easily
      give it try
      https://www.experttabletennis.com/table-tennis-drills

      the link above is perfect check it out
      Last edited by pingpongpaddy; 04-01-2020 at 09:25 AM.

    22. Top | #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by ContraDL View Post
      Yeah, by being passive I mean about one player being focused on executing exercise, correct strokes, movement and ball placement while other is there to return the ball on the agreed returning point. At the current level, adding spin to return would have an outcome of less than 10 repetitions, so I am not yet there.

      I showed him your replies and he agreed to mix things up, so we all good here. We will start slowly, so he won't be bored by it (practicing for too long). I was thinking of doing 5min forehand-forehand warm-up. Then 5min backhand-backhand. And then 10 min, 10 min, 10min exercises and after that some 30 min play so we both get what we want. I think for start this will be good.

      I know this might be hard question, since you didn't see me play, but are there any allround good exercises which covers most bases? If you would to pick 3-6 which one would you recommend?

      Thanks!
      It is hard to say for sure just by guessing on written descriptions of how you play, but it seems like you are stil at the stage where it would be best to just be countering everything. As a starting point, can you do that 50 times consistently if going crosscourt FH and BH?

    23. Top | #15
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      The simple answer is because it is not a game, it's practice. If you begin to play an instrument you don't learn songs by playing them through over and over at full speed and making 1,000 mistakes. You start very slowly and gradually make it harder as you learn to do it. Why would TT be different?

    24. Top | #16
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      Some exercises:
      1. Fh to fh diagonal
      2. Fh to fh down the line
      3. Bh to bh diagonal
      4. Bh to bh down the line
      5. Fh and bh while other is blocming only but this is more advanced.

    25. Top | #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by ContraDL View Post
      Yeah, by being passive I mean about one player being focused on executing exercise, correct strokes, movement and ball placement while other is there to return the ball on the agreed returning point. At the current level, adding spin to return would have an outcome of less than 10 repetitions, so I am not yet there.

      I showed him your replies and he agreed to mix things up, so we all good here. We will start slowly, so he won't be bored by it (practicing for too long). I was thinking of doing 5min forehand-forehand warm-up. Then 5min backhand-backhand. And then 10 min, 10 min, 10min exercises and after that some 30 min play so we both get what we want. I think for start this will be good.

      I know this might be hard question, since you didn't see me play, but are there any allround good exercises which covers most bases? If you would to pick 3-6 which one would you recommend?

      Thanks!
      Sounds like you've got the right idea there. As long as you are both clear on what the aim of the practice is then it should be fine.

      I would choose 2 regular exercises such as 2BH & 2FH. Then BH, FH from middle, FH from wide. The final exercise I would add some variability either, 1 or 2 BH 1 or 2 FH, or FH middle either corner.
      Excellence is a habit

    26. Top | #18
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      Começar aos 7 anos, mas eu falo por mim iniciei esta modalidade aos 24 anos e nunca mais por esse amigo escolha alguém que saiba bater bem para evoluir, com os casa não vai para algum lado, e para ser um tenista com gosto basta ter em conta que deve ter 3 virtudes: cabeça, pernas e braço, nada de desejo e vamos treinar. Força
      Last edited by Argilvaia; 04-02-2020 at 06:24 PM.
      ...leão desde...pequenino

    27. Top | #19
      yogi_bear is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Argilvaia View Post
      Começar aos 7 anos, mas eu falo por mim iniciei esta modalidade aos 24 anos e nunca mais por esse amigo escolha alguém que saiba bater bem para evoluir, com os casa não vai para algum lado, e para ser um tenista com gosto basta ter em conta que deve ter 3 virtudes: cabeça, pernas e braço, nada de desejo e vamos treinar. Força
      Dude in English please.

    28. Top | #20
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      You also can add some simple serve and receive drills where part is set and then, at a certain point, the drill turns to open play.

      An example,

      1) Server, serves short backspin
      2) Receiver pushes long to FH (or could be BH)
      3) Server loops 3rd ball to Receiver's BH
      4) Receiver blocks to Server's BH
      5) Open play

      Open play could also happen after the 3rd ball loop as well. Those kinds of drills work on the stroke, consistency, and have a random element that duplicates match play.

      Also:

      - serve
      - short push
      - long push
      - opening loop
      - open play

      and

      - serve
      - short push
      - short push
      - long push
      - opening loop
      - open play

      Are good for developing control and working on the touch of the short game while also working on topspin rally skills.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 04-03-2020 at 12:03 AM.

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