How to explain why somebody must be passive when exercising

ContraDL · Apr 12, 2020

As requested I filmed myself doing FH and FHTS.
Can you guys give me key points on what to change?
I watched YouTube videos about it, but am not sure on what to work first

Thank you for your help! Videos below:

Links: (same videos)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAqGuoAjKV4&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whcr-e5VzeI&feature=youtu.be

pingpongpaddy · Apr 12, 2020

ContraDL said:
As requested I filmed myself doing FH and FHTS.
Can you guys give me key points on what to change?
I watched YouTube videos about it, but am not sure on what to work first

Thank you for your help

Links: (same videos)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAqGuoAjKV4&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whcr-e5VzeI&feature=youtu.be

hi contradl
these are quite useful
the main thing wrong is that you swing across the line of the shot. also the stroke is too long. this is true in both examples, though its more pronounced in the second.
Suggestions:
keep in mind that the ball is only in contact for a fraction of a second,so you should be in recovery as soon as the ball has left.
compare this example of basic fh by sugrue with your stroke .especially notice how his stroke ends about opposite his left eye.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xggjlp
next watch the girl in next video she is playing nice counter and loop at different parts of video. again compare how much she rotates compared with you. use mirror practice to get the feel of correct technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q628pgxPiXo
it took me a while to find nice simple examples. I suggest you really concentrate on sugrues counterhit shot untill you can do 20 + because it is the basic shot.
it would be interesting to see a followup video after you have made some changes
good luck

NextLevel · Apr 12, 2020

ContraDL said:
As requested I filmed myself doing FH and FHTS.
Can you guys give me key points on what to change?
I watched YouTube videos about it, but am not sure on what to work first

Thank you for your help! Videos below:

Links: (same videos)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAqGuoAjKV4&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whcr-e5VzeI&feature=youtu.be

What is really good is that you are getting your lower body involved and this is particularly hard for adult learners to do in a controlled fashion.

As pingpongpaddy has pointed out, the structure of the use of the arm can be improved, and you can go in many directions there - he has given you the standard classical approach. The main issue I see is that your arm is too tightly locked to your body rotation on the drive. Even though the hips/core should power the drive, the arm should swing a bit independently in a relaxed but controlled fashion. Learning takes time so the biggest problem in learning as an adult in my experience is finding the right balance between consistency and technique. The fastest way to fix technique is to try to copy the form but the problem is that copying a form you don't usually use raises your error rate and this leads to most adults returning to their prior form rather than accepting the error rates. Of course there are times when it is okay to do this but in my opinion, it is best to keep as close to the correct form as possible, go slower and be patient and build up the muscles over time. When learning correct form, one must be like a baby learning to walk and not feel that because you are an adult that you have to have it right pretty fast. Even world class players can spend months and years revising their technique.

The thing is that if you try to swing like pingpongpaddy is showing you, initially you will probably miss the ball many times. You may not feel comfortable. But you just need to look at what the ball does and change how you swing slightly and watch the effect on the ball while keeping the same form. The slower you go, the easier it is to do.

The one thing you shouldn't lose is your hip movement attempts. You may be overdoing the movement a little because you and your blocker don't have advanced control, but always try to use your hips when playing the forehand, with the key being always to let the left foot rotate inwards to give your upper body room to backswing and drive the stroke. Even if you make the stroke smaller or better, keep doing this as it will reward you when you play more and more

NextLevel · Apr 12, 2020

The first video to me looks a bit better than the second video. Figuring out where to hit the ball relative to your body will be part of this. So will learning to use spin to control the ball arc.

ContraDL · Apr 12, 2020

pingpongpaddy said:
the main thing wrong is that you swing across the line of the shot. also the stroke is too long. this is true in both examples, though its more pronounced in the second.
it would be interesting to see a followup video after you have made some changes

Hi, thanks for advice, will work on this and post follow-up video after some time. Will try to shorten the stroke and end in the direction I want the ball to go

.

NextLevel said:
The main issue I see is that your arm is too tightly locked to your body rotation on the drive. Even though the hips/core should power the drive, the arm should swing a bit independently in a relaxed but controlled fashion. Learning takes time so the biggest problem in learning as an adult in my experience is finding the right balance between consistency and technique.

with the key being always to let the left foot rotate inwards to give your upper body room to backswing and drive the stroke

Yes, I read that stroke should always use the same movement (on fh drive) and you should basically just use your hip to direct/power the shot, but I also noticed how "robotically" it is seen in video. I found that if I try to relax more, I use arm "too much" and forget about lower body movement. But as seen in a video, maybe I move too much? Also, thanks for pointing out to rotate left foot inwards, didn't think about it, but it seems really helpful.

pingpongpaddy · Apr 12, 2020

a good tip for getting the forehand right, is to hit a few balls from hand like a multiball feeder.
you can try sending counterhits or smashes or big spins.
hit the balls out of your hand without bounce and have fun with different arcs. keep arm as relaxed as possible.
this gives you a good perspective on how small the business part of the stroke is and you should try to carry the lesson learned into your real strokes

i worry that you read my post and repled to that, but the real lesson is contained in comparing the execution in the 2 videos and yours especially not going past left eye use a mirror.

yogi_bear · Apr 12, 2020

Too much body rotation. Your free arm is also swinging to wildly. It should be almost clipped at your left side while rotating. It interfers with your body rotation.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 12, 2020

Yep. First video looks much better than the second. Second one looks like you are trying to do a little too much and so, are a bit out of control and your form breaks down a little.

That is a normal part of learning though and so much of this is about continued practice and not worrying if the ball always hits the table. You can do a stroke with good technique and miss and with suboptimal technique and land the shot. At this stage, getting the better form into muscle memory is more important than landing the ball on the table. Sometimes, adult learners think, if they miss they did something wrong. It is okay to miss; the more important part is the form of the stroke and the quality of the contact. And, for the most part, in both videos, you are doing a lot right. The little things that are suboptimal, many of them will improve just by practice. Some of them may need a little extra work to remove a bad habit like the left arm in the second video. But they are easily fixed.

Therefore, I would say NextLevel's comment really hits the heart of what you need to hear.

In first video left arm is fine. In second video as you seem to be trying harder, your left arm is definitely getting in the way of the stroke and taking you out of balance. Stick with thinking of hitting at 30-60% effort rather than 65-80%. When your form is solid and in your muscle memory kicking into higher gear and going up to 70-80% will not cause your form to break down.

Practicing shadow strokes in front of a mirror can also help your body understand the stroke.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 12, 2020

I don't want to present too much info. And I have a tendency of doing that. For your right hand in your FH stroke, the most important detail is what NextLevel said about the arm.

NextLevel said:
The main issue I see is that your arm is too tightly locked to your body rotation on the drive. Even though the hips/core should power the drive, the arm should swing a bit independently in a relaxed but controlled fashion. Learning takes time so the biggest problem in learning as an adult in my experience is finding the right balance between consistency and technique.

One detail on that. If you look at the video and look at the angle of bend in your elbow, it starts at about a 90-degree angle and ends in a 90-degree angle. You would want the elbow to have a slightly larger angle (this could be a very small amount more open) and you would want your elbow to end at least a slight amount more bent than 90-degrees, so that during the stroke your right arm goes from slightly straighter to slightly more bent. It could be a bigger or smaller movement than I just described. But ideally, you would not want your elbow joint locked at a 90-degree angle throughout your entire stroke.

The following video is likely much too much information. The important information for you would be the information on the elbow movement.

Hope this helps rather than the opposite: The important part for you, on the elbow joint, would start at about the 2:08 time stamp:

ContraDL · Apr 16, 2020

Hey guys. I am sending another exercise video your way. I was focusing on correcting my hand movement and also trying to stay lower. I am 185 cm, so I figured I need to stay more low to have more precise stroke. My legs are burning tho, need to get them stronger

With my dad we don't get many repetitions and this is what bothers me. So clips are a bit messy, since we no good

As always, comments and corrections are very much welcome. I appreciate all your feedback which helps me improve. We have like 15 balls right now and he is blocking and I am trying to do FHTS, then after some time we do 2 different locations with some leg movement. We practice around 1hr a day usually 5 times per week.

We usually do something like:
5m -> FH-FH
5m -> BH-BH
10m -> FHTS (same place)
5m -> BH-BH
5m -> FHTS (I block)
10m -> FHTS (2 places)
5m -> I serve, he return, I try to attack
Best of 7 match

Kuba Hajto · Apr 16, 2020

I am no expert, but you look tense. I think it's not good for muscles and also relaxing yourself might give you more precision and power (those two rarely go together lulz).

yogi_bear · Apr 16, 2020

Still have some problems with free arm. Think that you have an imaginary centerline in your body bisecting the head. When your body pivots when you do your backswing, make it a habit that your left fist will not cross too much your imaginary centerline. I guarantee you the moment you fix that, you will have a more relaxed stroke but have a better swing.

Archyan · Apr 16, 2020

ContraDL said:
[...]

You have developed a good starter technique, you will improve consistency in no time.

What do you feel about your racket? It seems you have good rotation, and hit the ball at the highest point, but still get no power. In my opinion, H3 NEO isn't the most optimal rubber; especially for beginners. You need a lot of force, and body weight transfer, to be able to use a H3 correctly. I would recommend using something else, perhaps Mantra M/S on both sides would be a good start.

NextLevel · Apr 16, 2020

ContraDL said:
Hey guys. I am sending another exercise video your way. I was focusing on correcting my hand movement and also trying to stay lower. I am 185 cm, so I figured I need to stay more low to have more precise stroke. My legs are burning tho, need to get them stronger With my dad we don't get many repetitions and this is what bothers me. So clips are a bit messy, since we no good As always, comments and corrections are very much welcome. I appreciate all your feedback which helps me improve. We have like 15 balls right now and he is blocking and I am trying to do FHTS, then after some time we do 2 different locations with some leg movement. We practice around 1hr a day usually 5 times per week.

We usually do something like:
5m -> FH-FH
5m -> BH-BH
10m -> FHTS (same place)
5m -> BH-BH
5m -> FHTS (I block)
10m -> FHTS (2 places)
5m -> I serve, he return, I try to attack
Best of 7 match

Good work on improving the stroke. You may have to learn to activate the arm independent of the body a little to go further. Here is one video that gives one good way of doing it.

https://youtu.be/hDupIHE-CO0

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 16, 2020

Yep. You are starting to try to implement the things you need to work on. So, that is a very good start. NL's video does target some of what you need to work on with the stroke. Worth watching.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 16, 2020

By the way, based on the video footage, how you could explain to your farther about block drills where one player feeds and the other does the drill and why it is important, would be this: for you, at your level, the drills being standardized for now, is what you most need to work on; and working on that will help you improve much more than working on other things. And, simply as a result of the accuracy of both of you (or the challenge for accuracy), there is an element of random in these drills for you; the reason, your father does not quite know where your shot will go, and you don't quite know where his feed will land.

So, for now, for you, simple will help you develop faster, for sure. Good work.

pingpongpaddy · Apr 16, 2020

ContraDL said:
Hey guys. I am sending another exercise video your way. I was focusing on correcting my hand movement and also trying to stay lower. I am 185 cm, so I figured I need to stay more low to have more precise stroke. My legs are burning tho, need to get them stronger With my dad we don't get many repetitions and this is what bothers me. So clips are a bit messy, since we no good As always, comments and corrections are very much welcome. I appreciate all your feedback which helps me improve. We have like 15 balls right now and he is blocking and I am trying to do FHTS, then after some time we do 2 different locations with some leg movement. We practice around 1hr a day usually 5 times per week

hi contradl
looking a lot better
i think you should change your drills to include:-

worker
++================fh/bh from bh corner twenty shots
this teaches step around bh should be consistent block

feeder bh from bh corner==========

worker: =====fh========bh fh from center bh from bh corner twenty shots without error

feeder +== bh block from bh corner ============

to strengthen legs use timer on your phone

go to bh net post in ready crouch touch post right then shuffle step round the table touch other netpost then back again repeat
see how many reps you can manage in 5 mins continuous then ten staying low feet scraping the floor

try and include the bh fh drills in next vid

keep going

ContraDL · Apr 16, 2020

yogi_bear said:
Still have some problems with free arm. Think that you have an imaginary centerline in your body bisecting the head. When you body pivots when you do your backswing, make it a habit that your left fist will not cross too much your imaginary centerline. I guarantee you the moment you fix that, you will have a more relaxed stroke but have a better swing.

I notices when you mentioned. When trying to add more power to the shot I tend to move my left arm too much. Probably because I don't include as much arm and wrist movement and then try to compensate with this "imaginary power" boost. Then stifness of body comes.. Will try to keep and extra eye on this one for sure.

Archyan said:
You have developed a good starter technique, you will improve consistency in no time.

What do you feel about your racket? It seems you have good rotation, and hit the ball at the highest point, but still get no power. In my opinion, H3 NEO isn't the most optimal rubber; especially for beginners. You need a lot of force, and body weight transfer, to be able to use a H3 correctly. I would recommend using something else, perhaps Mantra M/S on both sides would be a good start.

Hi. Before I had Viscaria with Butterfly 05 on both sides, but it was too much for me. I don't include too much power in my shot, because I mainly focus to return the ball on the same place and just add as much spin as possible right now. I feel like current rubbers are very good for me, because I think it forces me to strike the ball correctly in order to archieve good power. Also, I love watching Chinese players, especially Ma Long and I am happy when I have something "similar" that they have

Before settling on this, I tried many different set-ups which I borrowed from other players and am really happy with this one. Hopefully it will stay with me for a long time

NextLevel said:
Good work on improving the stroke. You may have to learn to activate the arm independent of the body a little to go further. Here is one video that gives one good way of doing it.

https://youtu.be/hDupIHE-CO0

I've watched video and if I understand it correctly it resembles things mentioned in video UpSideDownCarl send about mechanics. The biggest problem I have now is that I am switching from my old stroke to this one; which includes more "arm". What I feel when playing is that body rotation (transfering weight from right to left) should give you initial direction and power. And then just use your arm to accelerate very fast to get desired result. I am having problem placing ball back on the table when doing so, but am and will keep trying to do so. Sometimes what happens is that I just brush the ball and do not direct it forward, so i need more feeling. Also, I found that I need to keep my wrist relaxed and take some sort of Z shape of an arm when performing forhand topspin. If I missed the point please correct me

Is there any "measurement" on which I can see that I am moving in better direction, or something to watch-out when watching replay of yourself?

UpSideDownCarl said:
By the way, based on the video footage, how you could explain to your farther about block drills where one player feeds and the other does the drill and why it is important, would be this: for you, at your level, the drills being standardized for now, is what you most need to work on; and working on that will help you improve much more than working on other things. And, simply as a result of the accuracy of both of you (or the challenge for accuracy), there is an element of random in these drills for you; the reason, your father does not quite know where your shot will go, and you don't quite know where his feed will land.

So, for now, for you, simple will help you develop faster, for sure. Good work.

Thanks! And yes, I noticed that drills quickly become random. Still need to move around

pingpongpaddy said:
hi contradl
looking a lot better
i think you should change your drills to include:-

worker
++================fh/bh from bh corner twenty shots
this teaches step around bh should be consistent block

feeder bh from bh corner==========

worker: =====fh========bh fh from center bh from bh corner twenty shots without error

feeder +== bh block from bh corner ============

to strengthen legs use timer on your phone

go to bh net post in ready crouch touch post right then shuffle step round the table touch other netpost then back again repeat
see how many reps you can manage in 5 mins continuous then ten staying low feet scraping the floor

try and include the bh fh drills in next vid

Thanks for advice, will try to get that into my practice and later film it.

I should also mention that I try to be focused on two things when practising, otherwise it's too overwhelming to do anything correctly. Will try to implement all your advices and be back in a short week with hopefully improved video. It's really helpful to get this feedback, so I can work on something meaningful

Cheers!

passifid · Apr 16, 2020

You're issue with the "messy" stroke is you trying to get spin by brushing up the ball but using a forward stroke. Try to keep your swing on one tangent like a / forward slash, the single move looks smooth and nice.
You're moving the stroke forward then up and going UHH as you change the stroke direction.

I think this is to try to keep the ball on the table when hitting harder, the better way to do this is to brush over the ball more and close the bat face rather than more up speed! but good progess

NextLevel · Apr 16, 2020

ContraDL,

You are no longer swinging across your body. That is a massive improvement. You can't fix everything at the same time so even just that shows you have worked very hard.

Even a high level player like a World Champion will have issues adjusting a technique. They may not be as obvious as the issues we may have but they might. So when you say that when you try to whip your arm and use the body that you cannot control the ball, this is expected and it shows that you are trying. The problem is that you don't have a high level coach watching you to tell you what to adjust a little or to keep trying what you are doing well. But you are 100% headed on the right direction.

In fact you can still use the legs more but these things are not done in one day. It is just a matter of something getting better as long as you are being guided in the right direction.

When you brush the ball and it goes long, what you have to do is continue to adjust your swing plane and contact point. One of the problems when I coach or train is to remind myself that the goal is to control the ball, not to put the ball on the table. If you swing freely and the ball goes long, then think about why the ball went long. Did you hit it too solidly or did you add enough spin? Did you swing too vertically or did you come forward over the ball? If the form is correct, then what you do is learn to adjust your stroke to the incoming spin. Missing with a good stroke is not about the stroke being bad but about whether you know how to adjust your stroke to the ball. If I was there in person to coach you, we could resolve this in less than an hour. It doesn't mean you will play better but you will understand that putting the ball on the table is overrated. Sometimes I put the ball into the net because I want to see how low I can keep the ball. Many people think that they have to swing this way or that way to put the ball on the table because they don't want to miss so they end up doing what they have always done. When you swing differently, adjust the contact point and swing trajectory and how thickly you hit the ball. These things will make the same fast stroke dip on the table with more spin. As a general rule, always convert extra power into spin when you are learning a new stroke. It is when you have practiced a lot and can take risks with speed that you can look for more speed with improved timing. But spin will always keep you in control and consistent so that your level goes up faster.

For you it will be hard to continue to improve without feed back or without going out to hit with better players. But what you have done is really impressive. If you play good spin your father will have to work harder to block so it will be interesting. Good luck!

What were will be looking for is some acceleration in the lower arm and the wrist in sync with your body rotation. If you look at Marco's Freitas video on ittf tutorial you can get an idea. Or any of your favorite chinese players playing topspin.

How to explain why somebody must be passive when exercising

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