How to explain why somebody must be passive when exercising

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ContraDL said:
I should also mention that I try to be focused on two things when practising, otherwise it's too overwhelming to do anything correctly. Will try to implement all your advices and be back in a short week with hopefully improved video. It's really helpful to get this feedback, so I can work on something meaningful ;) Cheers!
contradl
i understand about being overwhelmed, but be aware that sometimes its good to go beyond yourself for a short burst.
For instance sometimes when my pupils are doing a basic exercise quite well but still with some difficulty, for 5 minutes i'll give them something even more difficult but related. Nearly always this makes the first exercise easier.
its very important to have variation
 
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I have similar comments to everyone who has posted observations and suggestions.

I stress first what I like.

My first comment is I like what you do with the lower body and core. You are not on back of feet, the use short step adjustments to get imposition, you start it off with the leg and hip.

I also like that you get mostly into position and command the strike zone. You do not appear to be hitting the ball way too in front of the optimal strike zone like many adult beginners.

These two things I mentioned, your short light steps and good enough position, (along with striking the ball in effective part of strike zone) should you carry these through your growth, it will help you out a lot.

What I do not see happening (like others have already noted) is an efficient coordination of the parts of your body to make a whip to get your pace and spin. The very first vid and pretty much the next, you are hitting with maybe 15% power if that, so it is difficult to do that given what looks like the objective of a slow ball controlled.

The first vid, you look like you are in 4x4 drive mode where your entire core and upper body and arm all move together like they are locked in place. That does not help the good lower body work you start out with.

What you need to discover for yourself is how to stay loose and independently activate the different parts and pieces in sequence all relaxed and firm it right at impact to make an efficient whip. I could describe it in agonizing minute detail, but when you go to try doing it, that stuff will not make enough sense for you to get your limbs to do the things needed.

A good whip has the body be loose, start some motion (like you do with your legs and hip), then with each step, channel and amplify it. If you have a part be tight (often, for men, it is the back of the shoulder) then you are killing off and dissipating that kinetic energy. That is the basic mistake many do to sap their power (and also control). When someone tightens up something out of place and early, the player has to re-generate it again, often with just the upper body. No matter how Mr. Universe one is there, it is not gunna happen efficiently after you tighten something up too early.

It will come down to how you can sense how your energy got created, and how you can channel and amplify it in steps in sequence.

The number one thing I observe adults do when trying to make power is to tighten the muscles behind their shoulders and try to power the ball with them. All that does is stop the existing energy and now the player has to try to make power quickly and forcibly from a position way too high and to control that torque, the player slows something down or tightens something else to counter balance... result is always a fail in power, spin and consistency.

The number two thing I see adults do is lock their hip and torso. The idea is the player wants to use the waist to generate power... but they are actually doing is stopping their energy and trying to quickly torque their way to power. The body simply does not have it to torque 2/3 of its mass from rest locked together to produce enough explosion to make the bat go fast enough with any control.

The number three thing I see players do is death grip the bat too early. When you firm up, you do not death grip it, but it is a very sudden tightening at the right final moment. When a player tightens the grip too soo, it stops all the kinetic energy from flowing down the upper and lower arm. Then the player tries to compensate with shoulder and it fails.

The keys to a whip are relaxed body with initial movement generated and each step channeling and amplifying the energy and delivering it to the ball firming up right at impact with the grip.

I put extra emphasis on INDEPENDENT and IN SEQUENCE and RELAXED and WELL TIMED and especially the concept that it is much easier to accelerate something already in motion than something at that is at rest - especially if there is more mass involved. Simple physics tell you that you need exponentially WAY more power to do that to something that is heavier (like say your entire upper body if you lock it up together).

These are the basic conceptual things one must know about a whip and it is up to each individual to learn how to apply the concepts and make their body function. There are individual differences that allow an athlete to use a part more or use it less and still produce a result. However, the whip being comprised of putting something in motion and accelerating it by a sequence of independent timed explosions with a firming up at the moment of impact - that remains the way to deliver power to a ball, whether that is spin, spin and speed, or raw speed. That is effected by how solid you strike the ball and how and when you firm up.

When one comments about the stroke ending up to far in front and little chance to recover is basically a player striking the ball too far in front using too much torque - that makes a player follow through way in front and is difficult to stop and reset.

Kim Jung Hoon on his basic FH champions more waist rotation in preparation. What is effective about this is that a lot of the explosion and movement before impact happens a little earlier. The benefit of that is you get a lot of power generated... and now the waist is also used better, and the waist before impact is now turned and the center of the impact zone is in its "normal" place... but the explosive torque and movement is already done... and the impact happens and now there is mostly just the mass of the lower arm going through the zone... the waist is already preparing to reset and it is not used much or at all to slow down the arm and anything else getting too far in front... so it is real easy to stop the arm and reset. The majority of the torque happened while the body was on balance and had leverage... so there is little force to tip you over as when you do it later and more to the front.

If a player tries to use more waist without prepping some rotation a little earlier, then the impact of the ball happens more in front of the zone (or is still forcibly torqueing during and after impact) and it is harder to control direction of ball. it is also much more inherently difficult to stop all the torque and mass that is now more forward (or still going after the shot) and get it back. Simple physics.

These are a few things to think about and discover how your body can be relaxed and make the explosions happen on time in sequence to have you channel and amplify the possible power you can produce. Think, how did Bruce Lee being such a relatively small dude be able to deliver such devastating power to a target? There are whip and impact dynamics going on that can be learned and applied.
 
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UpSideDownCarl recorded with hiz Spyphone said:
Carl likes to talk about OOMPH.


His next vid is on the unseen finishing action of the wrist and firming of grip... so sez the birdie that escaped his Crackhouse #12 basement where he traps the Goonie for a week's stay..
 
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His next vid is on the unseen finishing action of the wrist and firming of grip...

Also, a small tip, If you misplaced you thumb when firming up your grip the racket will fight against your grip. There is a fancy video of EmRathich showing in great detail why and how one should grip and where to put pressure. I've been fighting with a squiggly racket. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF86vzjsuJQ But I think I resolved my issue... Maybe it will help you in some degree. Right now I don't see that problem in your videos but when you will try to relax your grip you might develop this bad habit as I have done previously. (also props for user Franz Hamasaki for seeing this in my videos, helped my great deal)
 
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I mention grip and the pressure changes as next to no one talks about that stuff on the forums very often if at all... and it affects the result of the ball hugely.

You see upper 90s percent of threads (in the equipment/technique topics) about blades, or needing a faster blade, or this particular blade, or which one of 15 blades is best or whatever.

Rarely do we have threads initiated to get to the "Meat and Bones" of what supports improvement in fundamentals.
 
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Start it we will talk in it... and it soon be forgotten and replaced by another 100 threads about the Super ZJK W896 pro edition and how it is a game changer.

I was saying that as an aggregate over time of the allocation of discussion of choice of forum members.

True, but that might a bit psychologically correlated, I've encountered a lot of people who think that having shitty equipment is less shameful than admitting that his skills (technique) are crap (I openly admit that my technique is garbagio). It's funny though, my generation was sort of trained on video games that equipment gives you stats that enables you to kill more powerful monsters. This might have been a good comparison if we remembered that those items in said video games almost always had skill requirements that either prohibited you from using high-level gear or did severely hamper your performance (lack of `strength` made you swing the weapon like a snail etc.).
 
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It seems like your dad doesn't have the patience to do these kinds of drills. But I think you should explain to him that returning the balls slower or passively to you will help you improve your consistency and timing. It will also help you build your endurance because you want to hit the ball as many as you can while he does this. At the same time, you should do the same for him so he will be able to realize the importance of this drill.

To make it more challenging, do a BH and FH drill, or down the line looping to build better endurance.
 
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Maybe now is the time to change this. Why don't you start a thread about this? Or should I?

True, but that might a bit psychologically correlated, I've encountered a lot of people who think that having shitty equipment is less shameful than admitting that his skills (technique) are crap (I openly admit that my technique is garbagio). It's funny though, my generation was sort of trained on video games that equipment gives you stats that enables you to kill more powerful monsters. This might have been a good comparison if we remembered that those items in said video games almost always had skill requirements that either prohibited you from using high-level gear or did severely hamper your performance (lack of `strength` made you swing the weapon like a snail etc.).

These two posts are pure gold. You definitely got me to laugh. So, thanks. And that is a very creative way to explain the equipment conundrum that so many mid level players create for themselves.
 
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Start it we will talk in it... and it soon be forgotten and replaced by another 100 threads about the Super ZJK W896 pro edition and how it is a game changer.

I was saying that as an aggregate over time of the allocation of discussion of choice of forum members.

We really should have had the video camera rolling when you talked with NL about grip pressure the first time you two met. That was like a 2 hour conversation that could have been education material for years.
 
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Hi guys. After 4 more sessions trying to put said things together, I recorder another clip. Hopefully am moving into the right direction. When I tried to implement your suggestions.. first thing I noticed was that I can simply add more power to the shot, by only gripping hard when striking. The next thing was that I was rotating my hip too much and I didn't end in the direction of the shot. This is why for first 3 hours I was bending my right shoulder up. Hopefully I adressed some of the issues, but there are still many more things to correct. Thank you for your patience ;)

 
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Hi guys. After 4 more sessions trying to put said things together, I recorder another clip. Hopefully am moving into the right direction. When I tried to implement your suggestions.. first thing I noticed was that I can simply add more power to the shot, by only gripping hard when striking. The next thing was that I was rotating my hip too much and I didn't end in the direction of the shot. This is why for first 3 hours I was bending my right shoulder up. Hopefully I adressed some of the issues, but there are still many more things to correct. Thank you for your patience]
contradl
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  1. you could try playing closer to the bounce (as early as your dad is taking it with the backhand) Your stroke will become shorter the closer to the bounce you get and this wiil give more control and consistency. try moving in and out in the same rally.(yr stroke will change length as you maintain rhythm with yr dad.
  2. you are definitely at the stage where you should be trying to get 50+
  3. try hitting fh from bh corner to your dads bh its very much easier to maintain a rhythm that way
  4. disappointed you havent shown bh and fh yet
  5. doing bhs and fhs introduces movement and movement is the key to improvement
 
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Hi guys. After 4 more sessions trying to put said things together, I recorder another clip. Hopefully am moving into the right direction. When I tried to implement your suggestions.. first thing I noticed was that I can simply add more power to the shot, by only gripping hard when striking. The next thing was that I was rotating my hip too much and I didn't end in the direction of the shot. This is why for first 3 hours I was bending my right shoulder up. Hopefully I adressed some of the issues, but there are still many more things to correct. Thank you for your patience ;)


I Only skimmed through the feedback... so much to read. I should probably do this also, I have a few bad technique habits that are cringe-worthy haha..

Anyhow, your fh seems greatly improved, still some micro adjustments that might improve it, but not easy to put the finger on it. You're more relaxed and your wrist is less static than the first (which is awesome), but it seems you still have a way to go with the power in your shots.
After you've mastered consistency on the fh (eg. 50+ shots on the table) you should try to work out the third ball attack (which is almost the same: just more margin for error): I normally use this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYOwkAb302k to explain.
So you have the basics down (weight transfer, torso rotation, more relaxed wrist etc), but if you close the racket angle a bit more, trying to aim the ball lower and faster forward (eg. more power), adjusting the racket angle so that you can just swipe through the ball without holding much back on your strokes. (how much power would you consider your current shots to be? 75%?) I'm not saying to go straight for 100%, but try to increase the power maybe 10-15% and work out the propper technique adjustments from there.
you might loose a bit consistency firsthand, but it would cause much more "pressure" on your opponent in matchplay and when properly adjusted and well trained it would come almost as easy as your current shots.
Do you do third ball attack drills? or any video montage of it?

also, +1 to pingpongpaddy's suggestions. (especially the bh part)

Also one matchplay video (whether it's training match or tournament) would also be a great source to more feedback.
 
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contradl
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  1. you could try playing closer to the bounce (as early as your dad is taking it with the backhand) Your stroke will become shorter the closer to the bounce you get and this wiil give more control and consistency. try moving in and out in the same rally.(yr stroke will change length as you maintain rhythm with yr dad.
  2. you are definitely at the stage where you should be trying to get 50+
  3. try hitting fh from bh corner to your dads bh its very much easier to maintain a rhythm that way
  4. disappointed you havent shown bh and fh yet
  5. doing bhs and fhs introduces movement and movement is the key to improvement

Currently, I get about 3-7 strokes per ball. This is also the reason I mainly focused on static exercises to try and improve technique in as controlled environment as possible. Before posting in this thread I did exercises where I moved all the time. Since I can see improvements I will be working on getting more shots, till I can get at least 10 most of the time (I think my shots are not so bad, but maybe they are? I think dad has some troubles returning ball sometimes.) I keep in mind your exercise from FH to BH, I did it in the past and will include it in my very next practise. I love your suggestion to hit FH from BH side to improve consistency, will also do that.

After you've mastered consistency on the fh (eg. 50+ shots on the table) you should try to work out the third ball attack (which is almost the same: just more margin for error): I normally use this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYOwkAb302k to explain.
So you have the basics down (weight transfer, torso rotation, more relaxed wrist etc), but if you close the racket angle a bit more, trying to aim the ball lower and faster forward (eg. more power), adjusting the racket angle so that you can just swipe through the ball without holding much back on your strokes. (how much power would you consider your current shots to be? 75%?)
Do you do third ball attack drills? or any video montage of it?

also, +1 to pingpongpaddy's suggestions. (especially the bh part)

Also one matchplay video (whether it's training match or tournament) would also be a great source to more feedback.

In the past I did serve short, training partner return long on one side and then I tried to hit the winning ball. But as you can see, my pracise was very poor since I didn't even developed proper technique. Other than that, I have watched many videos about 3rd ball attack and how to do it. I will try to add to the routine. To keep it short, I really only focused on improving my technique for the last 10 or so days. Now it seems I need to add some variety in the form of new exercises and footwork.

I was thinking of doing something like:

  • FH-FH
  • BH-BH
  • FHTS (from BH corner)
  • FH-BH (left to right)
  • 3rd ball

I also like exercise when you go from one side of the table to the other, like:
------ 1. FH -------- 4. FH
---------- 2. FH
------------- 3. BH

But still need to work on my technique, so I will not overexaggarate by difficulty of exercises and try to keep proper form until it becomes a habit.
 
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Currently, I get about 3-7 strokes per ball. This is also the reason I mainly focused on static exercises to try and improve technique in as controlled environment as possible. Before posting in this thread I did exercises where I moved all the time. Since I can see improvements I will be working on getting more shots, till I can get at least 10 most of the time (I think my shots are not so bad, but maybe they are? I think dad has some troubles returning ball sometimes.) I keep in mind your exercise from FH to BH, I did it in the past and will include it in my very next practise. I love your suggestion to hit FH from BH side to improve consistency.

i post this not because of the record but it illustrates how to develop consistency. this is how i develop my pupils
first they master 20 balls with short stroke then move six inches back achieve 20 shots then back another 6 inches until eventually you are back at the the distance you are currently trying to play at Each time you go back your stroke length will expand a bit after. the reason this works is because it simplfies everything down to just the part of the stroke contact with the ball
sometimes i teach this to big chaps like yourself and they are reluctant to play baby strokes. but they soon find that it benefits the larger stroke

https://youtu.be/5AdwrWRSxH4
 
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Currently, I get about 3-7 strokes per ball. This is also the reason I mainly focused on static exercises to try and improve technique in as controlled environment as possible. Before posting in this thread I did exercises where I moved all the time. Since I can see improvements I will be working on getting more shots, till I can get at least 10 most of the time (I think my shots are not so bad, but maybe they are? I think dad has some troubles returning ball sometimes.) I keep in mind your exercise from FH to BH, I did it in the past and will include it in my very next practise. I love your suggestion to hit FH from BH side to improve consistency, will also do that.



In the past I did serve short, training partner return long on one side and then I tried to hit the winning ball. But as you can see, my pracise was very poor since I didn't even developed proper technique. Other than that, I have watched many videos about 3rd ball attack and how to do it. I will try to add to the routine. To keep it short, I really only focused on improving my technique for the last 10 or so days. Now it seems I need to add some variety in the form of new exercises and footwork.

I was thinking of doing something like:

  • FH-FH
  • BH-BH
  • FHTS (from BH corner)
  • FH-BH (left to right)
  • 3rd ball

I also like exercise when you go from one side of the table to the other, like:
------ 1. FH -------- 4. FH
---------- 2. FH
------------- 3. BH

But still need to work on my technique, so I will not overexaggarate by difficulty of exercises and try to keep proper form until it becomes a habit.

3-7 strokes is not enough.. so, keep focusing on consistency majorly, but adding in third ball attacks at the end for a shorter duration is cool.
Also, I once made a google docs document where I compiled a lot of useful information from different sources. Probably a bit messy, and can always be expanded, but you might find it useful if you have the time to read: (I also listed the sources)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zM6gQ-YllEvmBXNQJKv968es2UrKq-VA_2L2QxSq9z4/edit#
Referencing to that, you should train in this order: Consistency > Placement > Power > Spin (ofc spin will always be present, but last part is topping it further, getting some extra snap and variations like side-top)
Improving footwork is also of huge importance, so I would add in something like the falkenberg drill after you have a 50 shot fh consistency also. (after warm ups, and static drills before or instead of third ball)
Meaning: 1. Bh on bh side 2. fh step around on bh side 3. Fh on fh side. (but variations like the once you suggested are probably just as good, falcenberg is slightly more fh focused, you can adjust it however you like to fit your desired playstyle)
TBC: Gotta go
 
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if i was going to train some one and wanted them to be passive and /or just do what i tell em to do, i would use the mirror analogy like " there are things you cant see which only a mirror can show you". by the way staying passive makes it easier to focus.
hope my idea is useful :)
 
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