You wouldn't like being in America much then. For some, the rating is the be all and end all of everything. Even when picking a coach, the vast majority of American players will pick the coach with the highest rating rather than say a good track record of helping players improve. If I were king I would do away with ratings and have divisions which would combat a whole host of problems but that will never happen in the USA. Too many people adhere to the idea "my rating is higher than yours so I am better than you in all aspects of life." Sad but true.
I am 15 years old, what is the chance of becoming a professional?
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You wouldn't like being in America much then. For some, the rating is the be all and end all of everything. Even when picking a coach, the vast majority of American players will pick the coach with the highest rating rather than say a good track record of helping players improve. If I were king I would do away with ratings and have divisions which would combat a whole host of problems but that will never happen in the USA. Too many people adhere to the idea "my rating is higher than yours so I am better than you in all aspects of life." Sad but true.
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So how do you seed tournaments? I thought that was the reason that you had ranking/rating systems.
You're either humble bragging or just play in a very elite environment. 2200 US level is well above average in any country. Just because there are more of them in say, Sweden or China, doesn't mean that moves the average - for each player of your level there are probably 10 more that are truly "average", those players just don't get noticed as much at the club levels. You'd fall far to the right of a normal curve even in China. I'd venture a guess that you are training in a very high level environment (club, league, region) or are just not aware of how many truly average and below average club players are out there.
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I think it is quite possible that many of those crazy people, including myself, are actually decently employed people to some degree who just carry over their attitude to work or other hobbies to table tennis. I will speak for myself when I say that trying to get good enough to beat most of the players in my club was something I never thought would happen - I started playing in my club 9 years ago in July this year. But my coach back then told me that to get better I had to play tournaments. And then to measure my improvement, I had modest rating goals that I never thought I would achieve. My peak rating was 300pts higher than I reasonably thought I would ever get to.
If you are someone who got coaching as a kid and never had to really work or figure out how to improve by consciously investing your time in the sport, you won't appreciate the difference between yourself and someone who is paying money for coaching or travelling to other countries to get training or who just loves table tennis as his hobby. I have travelled for tournament vacations. I have travelled once to get coaching. But I know people who have flown to camps and people who have flown in coaches to get training.
So feel free to make fun of those people as odd types. I was once one of the most active tournament players in America, used to travel to many tournaments because I loved to play. The rating was a minor part of it, but it was part of showing that how much work I was putting into the sport was getting rewarded on some level. I suspect that many people take similar pride in rankings or winning competitions. Nothing special to table tennis and nothing specific to professionals.
I also find it strange that someone who tries to raise themselves in the ranking system they are given would be seen as anything besides for competitive. There are a lot of nuts I have met in table tennis but I'm not sure if those are it.
I guess Lula is referring to people who are obsessed with rating to the point of attaching self-worth to it and/or look down upon those below them, even if not by much. Those people do exist and are not the most savory.
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in our local league they take the result of the previous year tournament to make the seeding
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But this is true for players in various ways in competitive settings. I mean, my coach tried to get me to play all levels of players, but I know many players who get bored playing worse players, including myself on some days - no one enjoys playing someone who is not a challenge in some ways.
There are people who go to school and think that their advanced education makes them a better person than someone who didn't do as much schooling. Is this attitude better with respect to education vs table tennis or is it just a broader human failing that assumes that our achievements are due to our effort and make us better people than others who didn't put in such effort (regardless of whether this is really true or not)?
For me, when I speak about ratings online, it is usually because there are things that mean something to a lower rated player and when a higher rated player is discussing them, they mean something else. If someone says Kreanga can't return serves well, it is no the same thing as me not returning serves well or my club supervisor not returning serves well. But sometimes, people feel compelled to always talk about how good or bad a player is without understanding the context. When I spoke to a national level coach about TT, I got an idea of how differently we view the game even on the small things I could understand.
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Yup, so many USA people are SO into and SO protective of their rating it is silly.
There are players who reach 2000 and stop doing tourneys, so that they can remain above 2000 without risk.
Reaching 2000 is one thing, staying there or improving is another.
At just about any level around or below 2000, so many will do all kind of stuff for ratings points. . Some default when they realize they got in a draw with someone they know they will lose to...
Even if USA were to get rid of a numerical rating and went to 7 or 8 divisions like say Korea . USA people would want to know did and winning percentage.
In Korea, you say you are Div 2 regional, then they got an idea and it is enough.
Still, any system of proper classification can be circumvented... doing so is its own sport in Korea. They try to stack player after underclassified player for the team event, since it is a handicapped match...end result is pretty much an equal field since all are doing it, but just do it better than everyone.
You should be better at tt than the others, not just better at being sneaky.
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There are players who reach 2000 and stop doing tourneys, so that they can remain above 2000 without risk.
Reaching 2000 is one thing, staying there or improving is another.
At just about any level around or below 2000, so many will do all kind of stuff for ratings points. . Some default when they realize they got in a draw with someone they know they will lose to...
Even if USA were to get rid of a numerical rating and went to 7 or 8 divisions like say Korea . USA people would want to know did and winning percentage.
In Korea, you say you are Div 2 regional, then they got an idea and it is enough.
Still, any system of proper classification can be circumvented... doing so is its own sport in Korea. They try to stack player after underclassified player for the team event, since it is a handicapped match...end result is pretty much an equal field since all are doing it, but just do it better than everyone.
You should be better at tt than the others, not just better at being sneaky.
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But what if you go to another city and enter a tournament? Will they look at your results from your
home town then?
Agreed - what I was saying is that, if a rating system is what is given to players by a national association, it is normal to assume that some people are going to attach great value to it. To what extent they do that is where you can draw the line on if they are "odd types" - some definitely take it too far but I wouldn't consider someone who plays tournaments to try to up their rating through honest means (no selective defaulting, points hunting, etc.) to be that. I too have always just used ratings to be a very rough barometer - within certain ranges you can get an idea of what someone does and doesn't know about the game or just how they may approach understanding the game. My comment about looking down on lower rated players wasn't referring to those who don't want to play with them - that is totally their prerogative but I have seen, too often, a lot of people who really carry themselves as if they are higher beings than lower rated clubmates.
It's not that serious or accurate, but some comments here that completely disregard a rating system are confusing - sure there will be some flaws, outliers, or underrated people, but if someone is familiar with the system they can get a rough idea of what I stated above.
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People blaming the rating system for human nature. That said, no one likes to lose a lot. Ratings central had a more complicated view of improvement that was slower and more realistic. But not sure whether people would like that system either.
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Then chances are big you're unseeded. Unless its a very big official tournament, where some very good players have "Dan" like Judo fighters, or Shogi players.
I've seen in some open tournaments, 1st round matches of very high level on one table, and very average level on some other tables... but in the end the best players win anyway
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I guess in every league you can find those people, who just want to beat the obviously lower level players, as they only enjoy winning. But most of the players and teams here do their best to win their division, because they want to enjoy playing against stronger players for a whole year and improve.
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One of the things with this discussion on rating, in this thread, rating was mentioned as a way of saying, as you get better and better, as your rating gets higher, as you get closer and closer to top 100 in your country, improving gets harder and harder.
So, I actually think that, even if interesting, a lot of the discussion on USATT rating is a bit beside the point and does not have much to do with how ratings were used in this thread. I mean, was anyone saying, "my rating is such and such, look how good I am/ or how bad you are?"
The point being made was, the higher you get, the harder it is to continue to progress and improve.
I am sure, given the nature of TT, most of us on the forum have hit plateaus or had trouble breaking out of spots where we felt stuck.
And I don't think that idea of it getting harder and harder as you get better and better really falls into the category being discussed about rating being used by players for bragging rights.
So, I would ask, why did the statement: "As you get better, it gets harder to improve" (using rating numbers from USATT), lead to statements about keyboard warriors and Kenyans pontificating on Ice Hockey? Because, in some sense, I think comments like that fall more into the category that people using USATT ratings were being accused of if you think about it.
So, I actually think that, even if interesting, a lot of the discussion on USATT rating is a bit beside the point and does not have much to do with how ratings were used in this thread. I mean, was anyone saying, "my rating is such and such, look how good I am/ or how bad you are?"
The point being made was, the higher you get, the harder it is to continue to progress and improve.
I am sure, given the nature of TT, most of us on the forum have hit plateaus or had trouble breaking out of spots where we felt stuck.
And I don't think that idea of it getting harder and harder as you get better and better really falls into the category being discussed about rating being used by players for bragging rights.
So, I would ask, why did the statement: "As you get better, it gets harder to improve" (using rating numbers from USATT), lead to statements about keyboard warriors and Kenyans pontificating on Ice Hockey? Because, in some sense, I think comments like that fall more into the category that people using USATT ratings were being accused of if you think about it.
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I was just supporting Martin's point with my own experiences.
I've played in England and Sweden. First in a tiny place in England where the average level was very low, then in a slightly bigger city with a better standard. Then Sweden where I got blown away by the level compared to England.
It's true that the area I play in has high level table tennis. Your level is relative to where you play. I didn't say I was average here but here there are many players who I just do not have a chance against and there are less of those in England, much much less. And I can imagine it's similar in the US.
There are 8 divisions and I play in the 5th division. It's called division 3 here, but it's after Pingisligan, superettan (Super div 1), division 1 and 2. In addition to that I've heard this division has been quite weak since I started playing here. To me that is just not extremely good but that might be because as you say, I'm influenced by the high level environment. I thought I was a better player before I moved here, moving here humbled me and made me aware of the billion things I need to improve to have a chance against the better players.
I don't want to come across as if I'm bragging, it's the opposite. I think people should be humble about their level. Which it appears many players in the US are not (correct me if I'm wrong). Martin, Lula and others I would guess have spotted the way some players talk about this magical 2000 rating in the US and Der_Echte talked about how protective people are of it. This seems so toxic and counterproductive for improvement to me. I can imagine some of these players think they're so good that they don't practice with people at a lower rating and stuff like that. But Carl has a point, I'm not sure why that was brought up in this thread.
Obviously I'm not saying one shouldn't be proud of their achievements and I'm not talking about players like NL who have worked hard as hell despite starting late and with physical restrictions. To reach that rating in the US despite those obstacles (or for other adult learners) is ridiculously impressive. But those who stop playing once they've reached that rating to brag about it is just ridiculous.
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Goes back to human nature. There are people who think Samsonov is over the hill and should retire and people who think he should continue playing as long as he can. I believe that you should play as long as you enjoy playing and that if you want to review your old record, you can go to the website or look at your old videos. But my point is that it isn't something that some people who brag about the achievement do exclusively.
Moreover, getting to a rating goal can put pressure to maintain it. Sometimes, just getting out of that cycle is a good way to preserve your sanity and health. And many of those guys don't stop playing completely - they just stop playing tournaments because they know the demands of playing tournaments cause them psychological stress and sometimes other kinds of stress. Age is also a factor as some people don't like to play worse as they get much older. But it is mostly personality as I know people for whom something like the opposite largely rings true. I also know people who play individual leagues every week because they want to but they have kept their playing levels relatively good. Most players who have gotten more injured or slower with age just play much less as a result.
As for the issue with rating levels, I think it was to measure how quickly people who started late improve. But Lula has always felt that it is okay for players at all levels to insightfully comment on players they watch, and I feel from my experience that most players who want to share commentary should give some of their playing background so that where they are coming from can be understood. Whenever I argue this, it comes off sometimes as an obsession with playing level, and maybe it is. But what I find is that there are many people who think that they play like Ma Long because they have never put themselves on camera and have never put in the hours to improve. So they think just telling people how to play better is trivial. When I used to post on the internet, I used to take advice from lots of such people. But after travelling to many tournaments and seeing some of the people giving me advice, or even seeing them post video, I learned that one should be careful taking advice from random strangers without being able to put it in context.
I didn't mean to seriously accuse you of humble bragging - I meant that more as, give yourself some credit! Your level is very good for an amateur player anywhere in the world. The main point was that, how good you think you are is definitely relative to where you play. To further demonstrate, this I once met a person who was about 1400 TTR/1800 USA level who came from an area of very few trained TT player. This guy legitimately believed that he was a "pro coach and player" and had concluded that he was about 4 levels higher based on videos he had watched, simply because he was the best player in his area and never got challenged. He was in a for a rude awakening when he got the chance to play someone truly at the level that he thought he was at.
But it seems we are on the same page with this idea. As for whether people want to get complacent with reaching a certain number is up to them, we can all give our opinions on it but it does not matter much if it doesn't relate to us.
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I agree completely.
Players who are new and haven't been brought up in a strong TT environment are especially vulnerable to these types of comments you're referring to. Those who provide advice without context of their playing level often end up causing confusion and might even damage the other persons game. I've seen this countless times in real life too. They provide advice but they don't know what they're talking about. it was VERY frustrating back when I played in England and desperately wanted to improve and people were giving me nonsensical advice. After a while I knew it wasn't useful, but I didn't know what to do differently or what to focus on.
When you haven't seen proper table tennis it's very difficult to put the pieces together. And even if you have you could be looking at all of the wrong things. I suppose the people giving advice are often trying to help (or brag about their ability), it strikes a nerve with me either way.
I did not meant that people should not improve, more of the opposite. That is why is started a group for adults because i think everyone should get an opportunity to become better. I meant more that people are thinking more about ranking points than actually developing their game and becoming better. I think the focus then are a bit on the wrong things. Of course ranking points can give you are measure but i think many times that the players that are like that just are more focused on having a high ranking than actually becoming better. I know some players here in sweden that barely play some games due to fear of loosing ranking points, and some that never try to develop their game beuase they can not take it when they loose some points while devoloping and also some that try new equipment for like two training because they feel like they are not imediately better and proably worse in the beginning and will not risk loosing.
And when people who haven't seen proper table tennis except for on YouTube start to think they've got it all figured out because they watched some videos, rather than learning through actual experiences applied to real players... you end up with the hot takes you see in the YouTube comment section, written by your local club's 1300 expert.
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