SARS-CoV-2; CoVID-19; Coronavirus; Updates and Information

NextLevel said:

https://theconversation.com/blood-s...conventional-means-might-be-protective-136592

People continue to talk around the fact that metabolic issues especially those that have gotten worse with age are the #1 risk factor for having a serious case of this disease. I suspect that this is what drives the majority of the cases when younger people fall sick. But the whole processed food industry is built around sugar and processed foods. Cheap food is easy to store and sell.


The thing is that you can reduce your blood sugar and improve your risk factors in a matter of weeks. But people just don't talk about it. Not everyone will listen but some people will.

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Nice try, but 34 million americans are diabetic, and seeing people all around us missing feet or legs, riding in motorized chairs, etc., has made zero impact on the overall dietary habits of the population. So it would be surprising if many people reacted that way to Covid. Lije you say, good food is incredibly expensive and garbage ultraprocessed food is ridiculously cheap. People are being rational actors and short-term utility maximizing.

NextLevel said:

We will see where everyone ends up in a year. The thing is that you can't lock down the economy forever if you are a functioning democracy. The Swedes admit that it hit a few of their nursing homes and their nursing homes are larger than those in say Norway. But unless there is a major drop in the disease's virulence due to seasonal variation by summer, all you are doing is buying some people a couple of months. But people will continue to pile on the Swedes despite their death rates when all is said and done not being that bad and better than Switzerland and comparable though not better than Denmark.

BTW, all the broader sampling points to this being more similar in virulence to a seasonal flu. The Jacksonville physician is using the 3% number which is his prerogative. But most such high estimates are a result of not testing enough people or using statistics that only measure its impact on the serious cases or the elderly/high risk population. What is becoming plausible is that a lot of the contagion is being done by people who are visiting hospitals or people who are working at hospitals.

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The wait is over. Those who were meant to be ultimately protected in this "social experiment/exercise" have gone to heaven. It doesn't matter if the young and healthy become naturally immunized in the end if it comes at the expense of the vulnerable.

The 3% estimate is not necessarily the physician's prerogative. That was an estimate suggested at the time of his article(Feb 2), which was probably pulled from a study on The Lancet in late January. FWIW, COVID-19 related deaths are already 10 times that of 2009 swine flu pandemic as of this writing. Keep in mind this is ON TOP of the deaths due to the flu.

I think people have to realize the reason and accept the fact that these lockdowns happened because they had missed the window of containment and are forced into mitigation. Their governments dropped the ball big time but the people themselves also played a part, and they have to face the consequences now. This is not "waiting it out" but a necessary measure to reduce the death counts after the fact, when the health care system has already been crippled.

4/19
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...y-month-claims-infectious-diseases-chief.html

Dr Tegnell's assessment came after the national death toll was recorded at 1,511, with 13,822 confirmed cases.

Asked about the death rate, Dr Tegnell said: 'It is not a failure for the overall strategy, but it is a failure to protect our elderly who live in care homes.'

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4/22
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/no-...ockholm-could-see-herd-immunity-in-weeks.html

Tegnell conceded that the situation in Sweden’s care homes, which have seen the majority of deaths from the coronavirus, is worrying.

“The death toll is very closely related to elderly care homes. More than half of the people that have died have lived in elderly care homes.” Tegnell said, adding that he and the Public Health Agency are “still very concerned about the elderly.”

“It’s the group we said we needed to protect,” he said, adding that the agency was working with homes to see what improvements could be made to lower risk factors.

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https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidn...ontroversial-coronavirus-report/#4d29b9d04349

The Swedish Public Health Agency made international headlines yesterday by estimating that one-third of Stockholm residents would be infected with the coronavirus by May 1. Less than 24 hours later, the Agency has taken a dramatic u-turn and withdrawn the report.
...
Another Swedish report on the coronavirus spread in the capital has also been withdrawn by its authors. The preliminary findings by researchers at Karolinska University Hospital and the Karolinska Institute estimated that at least 11 out of 100 blood donors in Stockholm had already developed antibodies to the coronavirus.

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https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/heal...avirus-lockdowns-are-not-reason-hong-kong-and

Coronavirus: lockdowns are not the reason Hong Kong and South Korea are beating Covid-19. Model citizens might be

Hong Kong and South Korea are leading the way in the fight against the coronavirus – despite neither place having implemented a lockdown
Experts say it is no coincidence that citizens in both places took a proactive approach to defending themselves, rather than waiting for official guidance

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Brs said:

Nice try, but 34 million americans are diabetic, and seeing people all around us missing feet or legs, riding in motorized chairs, etc., has made zero impact on the overall dietary habits of the population. So it would be surprising if many people reacted that way to Covid. Lije you say, good food is incredibly expensive and garbage ultraprocessed food is ridiculously cheap. People are being rational actors and short-term utility maximizing.

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I was pre-diabetic for many years and I wasn't broke. So my issue was being ignorant, Maybe I am a small minority but sometimes, you have to reach out to people.

34 million is actually a low number, a lot of people who don't think they are diabetic often are - it is estimated that only 12% of American adults are without metabolic issues in one way or another. So that would put the number closer to well over 100 million people.

In fact, you can do fairly well on fast food if you reduce the amount of carbs you consume. Some of it is about price but some of it is definitely about ignorance. If you eat burger beef patties without the bun for example, you can reduce your diabetes pretty quickly. Some of the problems with the American diet are a result of the demonization of fat and animal foods, and the promotion of sugar and processed oils as being healthier.

In any case, I don't disagree that some Americans are being "rational", but there are other issues as well - Americans are fed junk in hospitals and put on drips with sugar when they are sick. If the hospitals are feeding people unhealthy diets, it continues the miseducation. The system also gives incentives to produce crappy food at low cost. Doctors often promote diabetes as something that is untreatable as if people can't get off their insulin injections.

So I think you are pushing a view of things that is a bit too simple. If some people know they could reduce their risk by reducing their sugar/carb/processed oil intake, some people would do it. Yet some people think that they will get healthier just by avoiding meat and saturated fats. The miseducation is deep so I don't think I can do it justice here. But I also think your argument is a bit too simple and ignores a lot of things. We could all maximize short term utility by taking drugs. But some of us don't do it. Yet many of the largest food corporations encourage sugar consumption and markets sugar which is just as harmful and addictive without any regrets.

zeio said:

The wait is over. Those who were meant to be ultimately protected in this "social experiment/exercise" have gone to heaven. It doesn't matter if the young and healthy become naturally immunized in the end if it comes at the expense of the vulnerable.

The 3% estimate is not necessarily the physician's prerogative. That was an estimate suggested at the time of his article(Feb 2), which was probably pulled from a study on The Lancet in late January. FWIW, COVID-19 related deaths are already 10 times that of 2009 swine flu pandemic as of this writing. Keep in mind this is ON TOP of the deaths due to the flu.

I think people have to realize the reason and accept the fact that these lockdowns happened because they had missed the window of containment and are forced into mitigation. Their governments dropped the ball big time but the people themselves also played a part, and they have to face the consequences now. This is not "waiting it out" but a necessary measure to reduce the death counts after the fact, when the health care system has already been crippled.

4/19
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...y-month-claims-infectious-diseases-chief.html


4/22
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/no-...ockholm-could-see-herd-immunity-in-weeks.html


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidn...ontroversial-coronavirus-report/#4d29b9d04349

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/heal...avirus-lockdowns-are-not-reason-hong-kong-and

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With all due respect, I think your argument is wrong. Nobody wants anyone to die, but once the diseases are in the system, locking down the economy has costs as well as benefits. To frame the lockdown exclusively in terms of the benefits without the costs is why your argument makes sense to you but not to me.

The 3% estimate is wrong. You can justify it by when the article was written or other factors, but it is wrong. Its limitations will be clear to anyone who is aware of what happens when you base death rates on reported cases and not on a sampling of the broader population.

Having an issue with the lockdown is not the same as having issues with taking measures to reduce the spread - the latter are inevitable and necessary especially when your hospital capacity is limited. Sweden is taking measures to reduce the spread like everyone else is.

The issue with lockdown is whether the measures taken should go so far as to cause problems which may have other consequences down the road, from unemployment to health problems etc. There are people who are waiting for medical procedures which are delayed by the lockdown in Canada. Go and tell them that they are being saved by shutting down the economy and making these procedures harder for them to access. They might be, but the argument has to be more sophisticated than saying that just because you have a disease which you know has already spread in the population, you need to lockdown the economy. Sweden's average age for those who died is 81 years. If the lockdown wouldn't have prevented the disease from getting into nursing homes, there would be no difference. Sweden believed it had the hospital capacity to not require a full lockdown. We will see whether this was the case in Sweden or other countries as well later. But the politicians will not admit they are wrong even if they were - so we will have to judge for ourselves. NY developed so much spare capacity that it had to release some of it.

Finally, while there is value to extending human life, there is no guarantee that these people would not have died when the economy opens up again as is now being done in many countries. If many resources are found that help save the lives of late stage patients and the toll on the economy is not as bad, then maybe Sweden will be shown to found the wrong balance. But I think at this stage, given the potential for mass reinfection, holding steadfastly to Sweden being right or wrong is showing a refusal to understand that when making economic decisions, the costs and benefits must be rationally assessed. Talking about lockdown without assessing what the lockdown is really achieving, the quality of the information driving it and the problems it may be causing is shortsighted.

It took how many years and decades and deceptive deals with experts and our own nation's oversight... before the day of reckoning came.

It is soon coming to the pushers of opioids, it is brewing for the makers and pushers of glysophate, and one day, it will come to big sugar. The last two are very intertwined - big sugar and big agra and to a good extent the agra-chem pushers.

Sugar is so addictive and so many processed things have a lot of it. The sugar beverage industry is corrupt, evil. In our own country, millions and millions have wrecked immune systems and numerous medical conditions, both young and old from excessive sugar and processed card intake. The modified oils and the chem residues are not helping either.

The metabolic damage caused by the over-consumption of products from big sugar are staggering in magnitude of millions and millions continually in USA. That is very under-discussed and under-realized. If Moms in USA collective knew what sugar did, they would ensure their kids drink maybe a can a week. If you go to supermarkets and look what momma is putting in the shopping cart, you can see a few things.

EDIT: You also see mamma put a lot of "Diet" sodas and the like in her cart. (With the hope that they are "better" for you, because of no calories. The chems in those beverages are even MORE damaging to the gut microbiome than the sugars they are replacing. Study after study shows this, yet the big sugar marketing train works wonders and keeps their products addictive and wrecking the health. Mamma does not grow a victory garden like her grandma did, but some of that is where/how people live, mostly renting, because a family does not stay together as a large unit any more.

Few people understand how nutrition and rest and work and mental affect their bodies... and put themselves at undue risk. Few people understand how to recover and maintain their immune system. Besides the prudent risk decision making, the immune system is your real defense.

Baal laid out some great perspective on how on the ground a virus can transmit in his last post. If people combine this knowledge and common sense approach with maintenance of their immune system and basic health, it goes a long way. We in USA have SO WRECKED ourselves in huge numbers.

brokenball said:

Ditto the points above about proning and initial load. I am interested because I am in the high risk group.
However I can't do anything about the medical aspects because that is not my field of expertise. Numbers are. However, the numbers are but the report numbers always seem to be disputed by someone because of poor record keeping, testing and categorizing.

Personally, I am an alarmist because I am in a high risk group. As a business owner I want to see things get back to normal. I have been watching the data on various CCP virus dashboards. I still think that number of future deaths is underestimated if you look at the death/(death+recovered) ratio then multiply that by the number of active cases. I do agree that the recovered number may be too low due to lack of testing. Some of those active case might be removed and put into the recovered column if there was testing for them.

I still think it is obvious that Dr Fauci has under estimated the death toll, due to the CCP virus, in the US. I am hoping my estimates are too high but I still think we will get to 100,000 deaths in the US or more. The number of deaths is still going up at a pretty good rate.

The business shut downs are killing businesses. Not mine, but if they kill enough business then mine will suffer too eventually. A more rational approach needs to be taken.

I am convinced that the decisions must be made at a local level, not state or country level. For instance my county has suffer 15 deaths in the last 3 months due to the CCP virus. My county has about 3600 deaths per year from all causes. If the death rate goes up significantly then there is a problem and it is probably due to the CCP virus. In a remote county a car accident can cause a significant increase in deaths. 1 CCP virus death would be lost in the noise. I think if the death rate doesn't increase much then businesses should open but people should wear masks if not able to keep the 6 ft distance.
My company is still open and we manage with precautions.

On the flip side, the New York Times has reported that the death rate in NYC has doubled. NYC has a problem and should be closed but there are remote places in New York state that could open with precautions.

Looking at rates of change in the death rate doesn't care about who has anti-bodies, who is tested, or how deaths are categorized. It will indicate something new is happening and how severe the problem is.

The one solution fits all will not work.

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Amazingly enough I agree with most of this. I'm guessing 80 to 100 thousand deaths, higher if states go through with ill-considered plans (FL, GA, etc.). That's only in what we would call the first wave.

My state is bigger than many countries. Houston, Dallas and Austin should not be treated like empty parts of west Texas, and areas like Beaumont and Port Arthur (they border on Louisiana) are not like Amarillo. Local authorities should control opening. Unfortunately it may not work like that.

Interesting Cell paper. IFN alpha drives ACE-2 expression. What a mess...
SARS-CoV-2 receptor ACE2 is an interferon-stimulated gene in human airway epithelial cells and is detected in specific cell subsets across tissues
https://www.cell.com/pb-assets/products/coronavirus/CELL_CELL-D-20-00767.pdf

WHO "accidentally" released China's remiesivir trial on severe group. No surprise to me it didn't work out for severe patients. Why people think antivirals can work on severe patients when tissues/organs are already damaged? Gilead argued that it lacks statistical power (237 patients vs 452 planned). Well, let's wait to see Gilead's results.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/23...ent-show-no-benefit-for-coronavirus-patients/

NY tested COVID antibody on people at grocery stores and 21% of NYC subjects tested positive. One prison in Ohio has 73% inmates COVID positive. 10k+ deaths in nursing home and long-term care facilities. People, businesses, politicians cannot wait for reopen. Tragedy and reality. Herd immunity may be established in US before vaccination.

Agree. In advanced cases it's not really the virus killing people anymore.

Do you know anything about the antibody testing? Fase negs and false positives?

rainneverever said:

Interesting Cell paper. IFN alpha drives ACE-2 expression. What a mess...
SARS-CoV-2 receptor ACE2 is an interferon-stimulated gene in human airway epithelial cells and is detected in specific cell subsets across tissues
https://www.cell.com/pb-assets/products/coronavirus/CELL_CELL-D-20-00767.pdf

WHO "accidentally" released China's remiesivir trial on severe group. No surprise to me it didn't work out for severe patients. Why people think antivirals can work on severe patients when tissues/organs are already damaged? Gilead argued that it lacks statistical power (237 patients vs 452 planned). Well, let's wait to see Gilead's results.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/23...ent-show-no-benefit-for-coronavirus-patients/

NY tested COVID antibody on people at grocery stores and 21% of NYC subjects tested positive. One prison in Ohio has 73% inmates COVID positive. 10k+ deaths in nursing home and long-term care facilities. People, businesses, politicians cannot wait for reopen. Tragedy and reality. Herd immunity may be established in US before vaccination.

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Well, the politicians will take the credit anyways.

https://asiatimes.com/2020/04/why-us-outsourced-bat-virus-research-to-wuhan/

Looks like another subtle strike in the international relations war.

3 antibody tests got FDA EUA approval: Cellex (immunochromatography), Chembio Diagnostic System (immunochromatography), Mount Sinai lab (ELISA). I am not sure what test was used in NY; not very likely ELISA though.
https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices...-medical-devices/emergency-use-authorizations


Cellex used serum/plasma samples collected before Sep 2019 as "negative", RT-PCR postive as "positive". Test results: 8 negative in 128 "positive", 10 positive in 250 "negative". 4% not bad.
https://cellexcovid.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Cellex-rapid-ifu.pdf


Chembio Diagnostic System used RT-PCR postive as "positive", 2 negative in 31 "positive". They tried different "negative" samples, (1) RT-PCR negative: 4 positive in 41 "negative"; (2) collected in 2020, asymptomatic: 2 positive in 49 "negative"; (3)collected before May 2019, asymptomatic: 7 positive in 125 "negative". In total, 13 positive in 215 "negative", 6% a little worse than Cellex.
https://www.fda.gov/media/136963/download


Mount Sinai lab (ELISA)
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.17.20037713v2


BTW, Santa Clara used an antibody kit Premier Biotech bought from China but not FDA or NMPA approved. They said the manufacturer result was 14 negative in 37 "positive" (RT-PCR), 0 positive in 30 "negative" (pre-COVID). They also evaluated using samples from Stanford, 7 negative in 160 "positive", 2 positive in 371 "negative". They weighed in the test performance when doing the serosurvey at large scale. Not sure if NY made adjustments accordingly.

Baal said:

Do you know anything about the antibody testing? Fase negs and false positives?

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NextLevel said:

https://asiatimes.com/2020/04/why-us-outsourced-bat-virus-research-to-wuhan/

Looks like another subtle strike in the international relations war.

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The same conspiracy story started in Jan... It sounds to me that US is not only too slow to make measures to control the outbreak but also too slow to make stories lol
I wonder when Ralph Baric from UNC and Gilead will be "involved" in the outbreak again.

Baal said:

Amazingly enough I agree with most of this.

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I don't think it is the message you disagree with. It is the messenger. Sometime I think of McCoy being irritated by Spock in Star Trek.
Nextlevel calls me a hard headed engineer. That is a compliment. I have described myself as a grumpy old engineer on engineering forums. Engineering is not done with opinions.

Zeio, I am a moderator on a Chinese servo control forum. What do you think about that? I am more well known in China than you are. They know my real name, where I work and much more. My advice is to keep a low profile. Another red card will do.

I want to repeat why I use the term CCP virus. It is because I have been to China 8 times and know that the average person is just trying to get by the best they can. I have given presentations at their universities and trade shows. Afterwards have gone to dinner where they toast me one at a time with baijiu ( bay-jo ) in an effort to get me drunk then we have gone out a played TT. You get bonus points for being able to out drink others. It is a cultural thing. My loops suck when I have had that much baijiu ( sorghum vodka like drink ). I have killer serves and just block then down.
https://chinaculturecorner.com/2015/01/12/drink-baijiu-and-do-business-in-china/
I have two ex Chinese citizens working for me now. Two of my 3 TT practice partners are Chinese, my doctor and optician are Chinese. It isn't a race thing for me. I don't like the term Chinese virus. It is political. It is also economic. I own a business that had 45% of its sales as export. Now that number is way down.

Here is a site I like for Covid-19 predictions from Los Alamos National Laboratory. It is quite geeky but it provides useful ranges.

https://covid-19.bsvgateway.org

Baal said:

Do you know anything about the antibody testing? Fase negs and false positives?

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NY State is using the Wadsworth Center IgG test. Specificity claimed to be 93-100%, not sure about sensitivity.

A specificity range that wide is going to be a $hit$how for population statistics. That is a huge issue for the Santa Clara study.

93% is respectable if you can run two tests bringing it to 99.51%. but that is assuming the 7% is just random and not down to specific reasonings. We

NextLevel said:

With all due respect, I think your argument is wrong. Nobody wants anyone to die, but once the diseases are in the system, locking down the economy has costs as well as benefits. To frame the lockdown exclusively in terms of the benefits without the costs is why your argument makes sense to you but not to me...

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Economy would get disrupted anyway if there's no intervention, simply because the number of sick people is already so high that those otherwise (still-)healthy people can't possibly go about their lives as usual anymore, when more and more of those people will fall sick as the day goes by, even if they try to ignore it. Look what happened on the USS Roosevelt, whose captain fortunately decided the human cost was greater. OTOH, you can't expect overwhelmed hospitals to have extra resources for elective surgeries, when those ventilators, PPE etc, for better or for worse, can be used to save COVID-19 patients. You risk getting those at-risk patients infected as well if you insist.

A lockdown is therefore a desperate, last-ditch effort to "reset" the infection rate, once transmission has spiraled out of control. Doing so gives you the chance to "turn back the clock" and potentially move from mitigation back to containment. That's actually the fastest way to get things back to normal. How long it'll take depends how fast you can "clean up after yourself", either through recovery or death for the already infected, so that the healthcare system can once again cope with new cases flowing in at a controlled pace as soon as you move back to containment.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2764956

When disease outpaces containment, countries rely on “mitigation strategies.” Countries like China, Italy, Spain, and the US moved from containment to mitigation, albeit at differing paces. Mitigation relies on nonpharmaceutical interventions such as hand hygiene, travel restrictions, school closures, and social distancing. While a blunt and inconvenient tool, social distancing has proven in pandemic influenza (in both 1918 and 2009) to reduce and delay peak attack rates and mortality.[sup]2,3[/sup]

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I never referenced that 3% estimate. It was your choice to bring it up. Either way, the point of interest is the passage about Native American, which I explicitly cited, as an "evidence" of herd immunity.

"...no guarantee that these people would not have died when the economy opens up again..." I wonder how the family members of the already deceased feel about it. Sweden is getting so much heat exactly because of this "lost cause" mentality.

https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/MRr42B/borlange-vi-har-begravt-dubbelt-sa-manga-som-vanligt

– Dörrarna till pappas boende stängdes den 1 april, med all rätt. Men de enda som blev skyddade var vi utanför. Smittan låstes in med alla gamla. Sex personer i korridoren bredvid pappas har avlidit. För honom är det som att sitta i ett väntrum till döden.

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"The doors to dad's accommodation were closed on 1 April, rightly so. But the only ones who were protected were us outside. The infection was locked up with all the old ones. Six people in the hallway next to dad's have died. To him, it's like sitting in a waiting room to death.


4/24
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidn...-over-as-coronavirus-cases-leap/#1cbe533f573f

Sweden’s state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell has announced a record daily high of coronavirus cases for the second consecutive day. 812 positive COVID-19 tests were reported during the prior 24 hours, taking the overall total to 17,567. Tegnell had previously insisted on several occasions that the spread of the virus was slowing.
...
“There have been more deaths than expected. It is definitely not over. We see that especially in the small rise in Stockholm again,” said Tegnell. The jump in positive cases comes just 48 hours after the controversial withdrawal of a report that suggested 600,000 Stockholm residents will have been infected by May 1.

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A data centric view of Covid19.

https://youtu.be/qtrv-mCCOD8

zeio said:

Economy would get disrupted anyway if there's no intervention, simply because the number of sick people is already so high that those otherwise (still-)healthy people can't possibly go about their lives as usual anymore, when more and more of those people will fall sick as the day goes by, even if they try to ignore it. Look what happened on the USS Roosevelt, whose captain fortunately decided the human cost was greater. OTOH, you can't expect overwhelmed hospitals to have extra resources for elective surgeries, when those ventilators, PPE etc, for better or for worse, can be used to save COVID-19 patients. You risk getting those at-risk patients infected as well if you insist.

A lockdown is therefore a desperate, last-ditch effort to "reset" the infection rate, once transmission has spiraled out of control. Doing so gives you the chance to "turn back the clock" and potentially move from mitigation back to containment. That's actually the fastest way to get things back to normal. How long it'll take depends how fast you can "clean up after yourself", either through recovery or death for the already infected, so that the healthcare system can once again cope with new cases flowing in at a controlled pace as soon as you move back to containment.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2764956


I never referenced that 3% estimate. It was your choice to bring it up. Either way, the point of interest is the passage about Native American, which I explicitly cited, as an "evidence" of herd immunity.

"...no guarantee that these people would not have died when the economy opens up again..." I wonder how the family members of the already deceased feel about it. Sweden is getting so much heat exactly because of this "lost cause" mentality.

https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/MRr42B/borlange-vi-har-begravt-dubbelt-sa-manga-som-vanligt

"The doors to dad's accommodation were closed on 1 April, rightly so. But the only ones who were protected were us outside. The infection was locked up with all the old ones. Six people in the hallway next to dad's have died. To him, it's like sitting in a waiting room to death.

4/24
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidn...-over-as-coronavirus-cases-leap/#1cbe533f573f

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Watch the video I just posted that is all I have to say. We can revisit in a year's time since you don't seem to grasp that there is a difference between mitigating strategies and locking down the economy especially when the population at risk is largely identifiable and protectable.

No one is arguing for zero intervention.

https://youtu.be/qtrv-mCCOD8