SARS-CoV-2; CoVID-19; Coronavirus; Updates and Information

Baal · Apr 27, 2020

This is a crisis. People need to treat it like one. Rain is right also that masks WILL provide protection even if it's not perfect. What is the big fricking deal? It's not going to be forever. Try to get the best masks you can, even KN-95s from China.

The more things open up (and I get that people need to make a living, my wife was laid off last week) the more vigilant we need to be.

Because there WILL be a second wave. Count on it. The only question is its size relative to the first one (it will vary from place to place).

I linked to the Los Alamos National Laboratory Covid-19 site above. It is great in providing the most likely RANGES of estimates and scientists there are extraordinary at this kind of thing.. Check it out as you make your own personal decisions.

Dr Evil · Apr 27, 2020

Der_Echte said:
...That title looks a lot like blaming normal people for the mess...

I don't get that from the title ("Asymptomatic Transmission, the Achilles’ Heel of Current Strategies to Control Covid-19") or the linked articles. For me the actionable point is to keep your distance if possible/wash your hands/wear a mask, because the virus tends not to give you convenient early warning signs that you're contagious. Also, if we can only make enough tests for symptomatic people, track/trace plans have a serious problem.

brokenball · Apr 27, 2020

OK, now I am not holding back. I have people describe me as being one in 100,000. The people on the TT forums as suffering from dunning-kruger. When all those idiots make their first million they may be able to question me. I will let all of you figure out what that means to be 1/100000 on an IQ scale. I don't care.

What I do know is that the US is heading to the road to ruin if it doesn't accept the fact that perhaps 200,000 people will die from this virus. I believe the economy really does come first. I am saying this as a high risk person. This doesn't mean being stupid. You can keep your social distancing and the doors within the company shut be kept open so you don't need to touch the handles that others may have touched.

USDC, will not like this but I really do regard most of you as idiots.
I am a multi millionaire mostly because I can solve problems that others can't. This will get another red card from zeio. I also have high speed cameras and video of TT balls hitting paddles etc. I have resources that most of you don't.

If you like some shaden ferude .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude
My investment have dropped $500K in the last two months. I could buy a lot of dignics 09 with that.

If you want to be good at anything it must be your passion and be willing to sacrifice to your passion.

When I was last banned there was some idiot called grandpa that claimed to be a teacher of physic in the UK. I feel sorry for his students. He claimed that acceleration does not cause force but he has never sat in the back of a Tesla and accelerate to 60 mph in 4 seconds and the resulting force of being pushed back in the chair. This thread was deleted to remove all incriminating evidence. Because I was banned you guys will never know the physics of dwell time. In the time since, no one has even tired.

Now I have learn to save topics. You can't remove threads any more because will reappear some where.

I am tired of all the political correctness. I am tired of all the opinions. When do facts matter?
Ban me. I know I am not popular. I am like the drill sargent that is in your face telling you are a worm.
I don't care. I might be able to keep you worms alive.
My mother told me when I was 7 or 8, the world does not owe you a living.
My football and wrestling coaches said get tough or die.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, Friedrich Nietzsche.

Don't give up your freedom. In this was we are all citizen soldiers. There are going to be some risks of death.

Der_Echte · Apr 27, 2020

Dr Evil said:
I don't get that from the title ("Asymptomatic Transmission, the Achilles’ Heel of Current Strategies to Control Covid-19") or the linked articles. For me the actionable point is to keep your distance if possible/wash your hands/wear a mask, because the virus tends not to give you convenient early warning signs that you're contagious. Also, if we can only make enough tests for symptomatic people, track/trace plans have a serious problem.

I would totally agree for now, in addition to what I have mentioned at length and have consistently said and agreed with many, that keeping distance, avoiding unnecessary contact, wash with SOAP/WATER, wash body, rest, go out on missions for now only when needed and plan ahead, testing suspected individuals and isolating/treating them ASAP (early treatment is MANY times more effective than weeks later like we do), staying away if feeling sick corona or not, expose self to fresh and sun, do push-ups, drink water, wear masks around people, avoid people if possible or make as much space as practically possible.

I do not think it is asking too much or trampling too many rights for the American public to do that the next few weeks. I basically agree with what D_E said above. You gunna hafta play vs me with Ur evil short pips one day when safe.

Takkyu_ga_suki · Apr 27, 2020

Der_Echte said:
...testing suspected individuals and isolating/treating them ASAP (early treatment is MANY times more effective than weeks later like we do)

What type of early treatment are you referring to? Even Taiwan seems to do what we do here, with respect to that. Unless a person develops a serious problem they are told to stay home.

Der_Echte · Apr 27, 2020

I agree with Baal in that there will be more illness in summer/fall, but because people are going to collectively be more prone to catching sickness from an increase in the things that make the immune system worse during the last few months and the next month or so.

The sooner more get a mild case and get over it and are not small shedders and the sooner people get better immune system habits the better off we will be. The sooner people act in a coordinated and committed fashion, the better we will be.

I am as vigilant and zealous about rights as anyone. Wearing a mask and doing the common sense stuff already championed is not a trampling of our rights.

We can argue about the orders to shut down many activities and if they should have been in effect or when should no longer be in effect, but the common sense stuff and a few weeks of a mask is not a travesty of rights violations.

Maybe my view I have comes from decades long giving up my basic rights for no immediate apparent logical reason for what a commander dictates. So maybe I give some room for something going a little in that direction so long as there is immediate purpose and temporary duration. A few weeks of mask wearing is right... right or wrong.

Der_Echte · Apr 27, 2020

Takkyu_ga_suki said:
What type of early treatment are you referring to? Even Taiwan seems to do what we do here, with respect to that. Unless a person develops a serious problem they are told to stay home.

Vitamin C in enough amount very early works on virus (ideally through IV a gram or so per kg of weight if needed) (or if no IV available, orally in smaller frequent amounts to titrate level), the earlier the better. Korean hospitals and some NYC hospitals have been successful early with this, but earlier is better. Same with Zinc and Quercetin (if done as maintenance beforehand) and HQL+zinc if I got the right initials. The Septic Shock protocol from Marik if done early works very well, but not so much if started late. None of the stuff in his IV combo are harmful substances. Done early, very effective, done too late, not much chance like everything else.

The approach to waiting it out at home is sound on a few levels (sound immune system figures it out and now you got immunity), but in the small percentage (which become larger numbers) waiting two weeks is terrible once it progresses to the lung damage. Now it is damned difficult to treat with close to same effect.

There are more and more doctors feeling this way, maybe I like a vid from another doc I know who has been championing early ID and treatment over 2 week wait for everyone.

Der_Echte · Apr 27, 2020

BB, going about it in the manner you are trending in isn't gunna help you, and I am one who leans in that way sometimes.

If we want to communicate and idea or approach, we need to show reason, rationale, background and clearly articulate the points of importance.

I get it, what we have done to address corona in USA has numerous secondary effects that should have been weighed and considered, and on the other end, when we started this thing, there wasn't much data and leaders need to be cautious. So they did what they did right or wrong and we have what we have.

Whether I convince or not, I support where I am convicted and try as much as I can to exhort community.

Telling Carl he stupid isn't gunna get you anywhere with anyone. I get it, I been called that or worse in the military as it was the accepted way of hard leadership, but neither of us are in that situation right now with forum members.

Takkyu_ga_suki · Apr 27, 2020

Der_Echte said:
Vitamin C in enough amount very early works on virus (ideally through IV a gram or so per kg of weight if needed) (or if no IV available, orally in smaller frequent amounts to titrate level), the earlier the better. Korean hospitals and some NYC hospitals have been successful early with this, but earlier is better. Same with Zinc and Quercetin (if done as maintenance beforehand) and HQL+zinc if I got the right initials. The Septic Shock protocol from Marik if done early works very well, but not so much if started late. None of the stuff in his IV combo are harmful substances. Done early, very effective, done too late, not much chance like everything else.

The approach to waiting it out at home is sound on a few levels (sound immune system figures it out and now you got immunity), but in the small percentage (which become larger numbers) waiting two weeks is terrible once it progresses to the lung damage. Now it is damned difficult to treat with close to same effect.

There are more and more doctors feeling this way, maybe I like a vid from another doc I know who has been championing early ID and treatment over 2 week wait for everyone.

Wow... interesting info, thanks! I have not heard any of this. By HCL you mean hydroxycholorquine? The initial reports of studies I've seen in the press were not encouraging, but if I correctly recall those were trials on patients with advanced cases. This survey (I have no idea how reliable it is) seems to show significant usage of HCQ overseas: https://www.sermo.com/press-release...atment-patterns-and-puts-pandemic-in-context/
but I did not see anything indicating its actual efficacy. Although a fair amount of doctors surveyed felt it was effective, but yeah, I know, not a double-blind study.

Did not know about the Vitamin C drip either.

I wonder how many docs in the U.S. outside of NYC are tracking these developments. HMO's especially seem ultra-conservative with treatment options generally speaking. I would guess it might be hard for the average Joe or Jane to get an HMO doc to apply these treatments early.

Anyways, thanks for the info... it sounds like there is some hope!

Tinykin · Apr 27, 2020

Coronavirus: New Zealand claims no community cases as lockdown eases

Some good news?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52436658

zeio · Apr 27, 2020

NextLevel said:
Herd immunity is one aspect of everything - even without heard immunity people survive the disease. Another aspect is that you can't control how the disease spreads forever in a lockdown other than to delay the inevitable. The funny thing is that we aren't even implementing serious lockdowns in the US. You can still go to grocery stores but not to coffee shops. So if someone can still reinfect people after he has recovered, what is the new solution? Lockdown people who have been sick forever?

The thing that these death rates are comparable to some of the silently communicated flu death rates. Obviously the lack of herd immunity makes things worse but the order of magnitude of danger is not different.

Lockdowns may even have made perfect sense when we had no idea what the true disease profile was. We still have gaps but we have a much better idea. Definitely American customs from handshaking to how we behave during times of contagion need some revision. But what I don't get is why you continually act like there is no alternative to lockdown and that Sweden must be idiots for doing what they are doing.

Man, 對牛彈琴. Look, no one is saying it'll go on forever. It took Wuhan 76 days. You only need to do it once and then move on to suppression. Don't take my word for it. See below.

https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...ctions-a-e939bdf1-6485-4c24-b70e-9ee7a5cdf5b0

Hong Kong Epidemiologist Warns Against Easing Lockdowns
"You Need the Sledgehammer" To Bring Down Infections

...

DER SPIEGEL: Why should we tolerate calamity?

Leung: The baseline is: Every year, the flu kills a lot of people in Europe, thousands, even tens of thousands. But you don’t get a riot every year. So, it seems to be acceptable to people to deal with that level of morbidity and mortality. Nobody likes it, but it is tolerated. Nobody asks for zero flu deaths. But if you exceed the capacity of your ICUs, then you would be breaching a very red line. So, somewhere between what people tolerate by implication every year and having completely overwhelmed ICUs like in New York City, somewhere between these extremes lie your tolerance levels.

DER SPIEGEL: How do we bring down the epidemic to a manageable level?

Leung: If you have a sustained outbreak like in most of Europe, you need the sledgehammer to bring down the Rt to below 1. Rt is the virus’s actual transmission rate at a given moment. But you need to go much below 1 to bring the baseline level to a low enough level that you can accept.

DER SPIEGEL: How low?

Leung: Rt of 1 means status quo. For every person who gets infected and recovers or dies, you replace them with one new infection. If your base line is 1,000 infections a day, then you would keep having 1,000 cases a day ad infinitum. Here’s what you need to do: You need to reduce Rt to much below 1 for a long period, so you bring down the number of new cases to say 20 per day. Then you can have Rt of 1 and have 20 new cases everyday ad infinitum, which is what you can deal with. You have to find out at what level you want to maintain an Rt of approximately 1 or just under 1.

DER SPIEGEL: Germany has an Rt of close to 1 according to the Robert Koch Institute, the country’s center for disease control. Some politicians are already talking of relaxing the measures.

Leung: You need to be very careful in how you estimate the Rt -- it is not a trivial estimation. Assuming it is above 1, I think it would be very premature to talk about any kind of relaxation. What you need to do is bring Rt to way below 1, and then determine what number of daily new cases would be an acceptable level.

...

DER SPIEGEL: In a large country like Germany could you have different Rts in different cities and different approaches?

Leung: You definitely need to have a subnational estimate, but you will also have different Rts in your cities. Yes, you need much more nuance so that you can more precisely target the measures.

DER SPIEGEL: Could you have a situation in which one city has to lock down, but another can loosen restrictions?

Leung: If the epidemic dynamics tell you to do so, then yes. Frankfurt and Munich could very well have different policies because the epidemic in the affected locations demands more precise and targeted policies.

...

DER SPIEGEL: Should young people be allowed to more exposure?

Leung: Trying to be too clever by half in terms of trying to expose people who are at lower risk in order that they could use herd immunity to protect other people at higher risk -- I think it is not going to work. Unless you have a very, very compliant population and you have a very targeted, almost military precision in how you think people are going to behave.

...

DER SPIEGEL: Wuhan has ended its lockdown. Does that mean that the next lockdown is just around the corner?

Leung: No. You only need to do that when your epidemic is completely out of control. There are gradations of distancing measures, from as simple as school closures to all the way to locking down a city, basically not allowing anyone to leave the home. What we hope to see is that we would have much less drastic physical distancing measures because we would be able to pick up the first few new chains of transmission early enough so that we then catch them. That would allow us not to go into full lockdown. A low threshold switch between suppression and lift would allow us to impose less drastic measures.

More on Rt by Gabriel Leung:
Lockdown Can’t Last Forever. Here’s How to Lift It.
http://archive.is/WzZ1c

Rt for US
https://rt.live/

Rt for Hong Kong
https://covid19.sph.hku.hk/

yoass · Apr 27, 2020

brokenball said:
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, Friedrich Nietzsche.

Be careful what and who you quote. That quote (from ‘Götterdämmerung’, I believe) stems from a murky period in the life of a person of dubious notions even for that period. It was written shortly before his final collapse into mental illness (probably caused by syphilis contracted while master-racing to victory in the Franco-Prussian war), under severe strain and after quite a few heavy blows to his physical and mental health already. These did not make him stronger, certainly.

Let's take this phrase at face value. When doing so, it's a pretty evident observation that what doesn't kill often leaves scars or other longer-lasting adverse health effects. Those losing limbs in the trenches may not have perished due to that, but they most certainly lost the use of these limbs. Stronger? My foot!

brokenball said:
Don't give up your freedom. In this was we are all citizen soldiers. There are going to be some risks of death.

These are valid concerns and statements. And it's certainly worrisome how regimes already inclined to authoritarianism, hostile to facts and expertise, jump upon the opportunity to sideline checks and balances that are vital to freedom — the freedom of the press, a functioning judicial system independent of and untainted by power, and so on.

Road to ruin, certainly. And it's not just the US; for no man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. We're all in this together, geography and nationstatalism be damned. So what's your point, BB?

zeio · Apr 27, 2020

Baal said:
I suspect errors in testing accounts for some of the reports of re-infection.

More on this. We got 1 more patient "tested positive again" after those 8 patients the previous day.

Here is what the HKU researchers found after some analysis.

http://www.lionrockdaily.com/2020/04/27/04.pdf

本港至今的新冠肺炎累計確診個案維持1,037 宗，另外有 1宗疑似個案。昨日有 19名確診病人康復出院，至今共有772名確診及疑似病人康復出院。
　　昨日雖然「零確診」，但再多一人「復陽」，所有「復陽」病人須再入院隔離，他們體內病毒是否具傳播力備受關注。許樹昌昨日接受媒體訪問時表示，病毒是活躍抑或已死亡，一般看 CT值，數值愈高則反映病毒量較低和其活躍度愈低。據了解，港大研究團隊曾做過測試，發現CT值超過 30的病毒樣本是種不到菌，換句話說是傳播力低。許樹昌說，「如果 CT值是 30或以上，接近 30幾、40就更不用擔心，因為病毒量很低很低，多數都是已死病毒的基因，沒有傳播性。如果 CT值是20幾，相對病毒量就是較高。」

增社區爆發風險

　　除昨日新增的一宗「復陽」個案，早前8名出院後「復陽」的病人，其中 6人的CT值高過 30，但有 2人就低過30。一人出院個多星期後，驗出的 CT值是 27、28；另一人本月初出院，第一次覆檢的CT值是 26，第二次則是36。而兩人出院後曾到過社區不同地方。據衛生防護中心網頁資料顯示，其中一人曾到沙田愉翠商場、荃灣荃薈及大窩口第二商場；另一人就去過銅鑼灣皇室堡及灣仔多幢大廈，都可能有社區傳播風險。
　　許樹昌指，現時仍未能完全掌握到新冠病毒的特性，曾見過有住院病人日日進行相關檢驗結果都不同。現時病人出院準則是跟隨世衛標準，相隔 24小時驗到兩次陰性就可出院，一般病人平均留院17日，最長留院50多日。許樹昌指出，病人出院亦可以參考是否帶有中和抗體，若「復陽」病人的病毒量低且帶中和抗體，就不用擔心；但若病毒量忽高忽低且不帶中和抗體，則不排除要修改出院準則。惟他亦表示，檢驗中和抗體只有三級實驗室才可以做得到，未必可以大規模去檢測。

The cumulative number of confirmed cases of novel coronavirus in Hong Kong has remained at 1,037 cases, with 1 suspected case. Yesterday, 19 patients recovered and were discharged. So far, 772 confirmed and suspected patients have been discharged.

Although there were "zero cases" yesterday, there was one more person tested "positive again," and all the "positive again" patients must be admitted to the hospital for isolation. Whether they can spread the virus in their bodies has attracted much attention. In an interview with the media yesterday, Hui Shu Cheong said whether the virus is active or dead, generally speaking, the CT value[Cycle Threshold?] is used. The higher the value, the lower the viral load and the lower the activity. It is understood that the research team of the University of Hong Kong has conducted tests and found that virus samples with a CT value greater than 30 are not able to grow bacteria, in other words, they have low transmissibility. Hui said, "If the CT value is 30 or above, close to 30 something or 40, then there's no need for concern, because the amount of virus is very low, most of them are dead virus genes, and there is no transmissibility. If the CT value is 20 something, then the viral load is relatively higher."

Increased risk of community outbreak

Except for the new case of "positive again" yesterday, among the 8 patients who were "positive again" after discharge, 6 of them had a CT value higher than 30, but 2 had a lower value than 30. More than a week after one person was discharged from the hospital, the CT values detected were 27 to 28; the other person was discharged from the hospital earlier this month. The CT value for the first follow-up was 26 and the second was 36. The two had been to different places in the community after being discharged from the hospital. According to information on the website of the Centre for Health Protection, one of them has been to Yu Chui Shopping Centre in Sha Tin, Tsuen Hui in Tsuen Wan and No. 2 Shopping Mall in Tai Wo Hau; the other has visited Royal Fort in Causeway Bay and numerous buildings in Wan Chai. There might been risk of community spread.

Hui pointed out that he still has not fully grasped the characteristics of the novel coronavirus, and has seen the results of relevant tests performed for inpatients change every day. The current discharge guidelines for patients follow the WHO standards. They can be discharged after two negative tests at 24 hour intervals. The average length of stay for patient is on average 17 days and the longest stay is more than 50 days. Hui added that one can also check whether patients have neutralizing antibodies when discharging from the hospital. No need for concern if the viral load is low of the "positive again" patient, but if the viral load swings up and down and without neutralizing antibodies, then a need to modify the discharge guidelines is not ruled out. However, he also said that only level-3 laboratories can test for neutralizing antibodies, and may not be able to test on a large scale.

Joepole · Apr 27, 2020

Der_Echte said:
Vitamin C in enough amount very early works on virus (ideally through IV a gram or so per kg of weight if needed) (or if no IV available, orally in smaller frequent amounts to titrate level), the earlier the better. Korean hospitals and some NYC hospitals have been successful early with this, but earlier is better. Same with Zinc and Quercetin (if done as maintenance beforehand) and HQL+zinc if I got the right initials. The Septic Shock protocol from Marik if done early works very well, but not so much if started late. None of the stuff in his IV combo are harmful substances. Done early, very effective, done too late, not much chance like everything else.

The approach to waiting it out at home is sound on a few levels (sound immune system figures it out and now you got immunity), but in the small percentage (which become larger numbers) waiting two weeks is terrible once it progresses to the lung damage. Now it is damned difficult to treat with close to same effect.

There are more and more doctors feeling this way, maybe I like a vid from another doc I know who has been championing early ID and treatment over 2 week wait for everyone.

When you makes statements like this about treatments you should really give references / sources. You can sound like someone who knows all the answers that no one else knows about.
Regarding comments about a strong immune system though of course desirable, bear in mind that immune systems are strong against what they’re used to. Indigenous peoples with strong immune systems have been decimated by the introduction of to them new pathogens. Staying at home must be a preferable option to relying on immune systems un till they’ve had time to develop resistance to the pathogen

NextLevel · Apr 27, 2020

zeio said:
Man, 對牛彈琴. Look, no one is saying it'll go on forever. It took Wuhan 76 days. You only need to do it once and then move on to suppression. Don't take my word for it. See below.

https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...ctions-a-e939bdf1-6485-4c24-b70e-9ee7a5cdf5b0

More on Rt by Gabriel Leung:
Lockdown Can’t Last Forever. Here’s How to Lift It.
http://archive.is/WzZ1c

Rt for US
https://rt.live/

Rt for Hong Kong
https://covid19.sph.hku.hk/

If we had the kind of lockdown they had in Wuhan, then I might agree with you. But one of the reasons Sweden didn't go that route was that they realized it was incompatible with their society. Maybe you need to familiarize yourself a bit more with what is actually going on in lockdowns in the USA. Raineverever has already posted some pictures of what people do. I drive sometimes by a hiking trail in Philadelphia and I see lots of people on the trail (all wearing masks admittedly now though they weren't when I first started). You still get people in supermarkets though the supermarkets are trying to enforce social distancing. This is not what happened in Wuhan.

If you are reading what I am writing (as opposed to just posting whatever you have heard from an expert about the lockdown), my question is not whether there should be measures to slow down the spread. My question is whether there can be a better balance given the issues that are faced right now. I honestly believe that social distancing has gone a long way to slow the spread. What concerns me is whether the forced closure of business is causing more harm than help. I think right now even if social distancing measures were relaxed, only people with the greatest need to do essential activities and who thought they were not at risk would go out. You would have the occasional idiot here and there, but people can keep the economy moving at a slower pace. The current shutdown is just affecting all kinds of things. The question that isn't being clearly answered is how much is the shutdown buying us over taking measures to slow the spread but allowing businesses to stay open (in which case store owners and individuals would have to risk manage better)?

Maybe I am a bit annoyed at the whole thing because this kind of disease shows how the current madness where people are being fed sugar laden processed food diets that promote chronic diseases is impervious to self correction even in the face of a disease that clearly thrives on this issue with the human physiology. In America too, lots of younger people are at risk (though one could argue that they are also the same people at risk from diabetes etc , this disease is unfortunately not as forgiving in time scale). My health was already ruined to a large degree by living the lifestyle that America layers its healthcare system over. And now, they tell people to go home and stay with their cheap processed food and wait for a vaccine to cure the disease. Good luck with that in all directions.

Baal · Apr 27, 2020

brokenball said:
OK, now I am not holding back. I have people describe me as being one in 100,000...... The people on the TT forums as suffering from dunning-kruger.

Ok then

Baal · Apr 27, 2020

Clearly we need to find ways to allow as many people as possible to work without killing them. There are some obvious things that people should do but a small subset claim it infringes on their "freedoms".

Imagine people in Britain during WWII claiming blackout curtains infringe on their freedoms and ignoring the rule at the risk of their town being obliterated by German bombers and their neighbors getting killed.

NextLevel · Apr 27, 2020

Baal said:
Clearly we need to find ways to allow as many people as possible to work without killing them. There are some obvious things that people should do but a small subset claim it infringes on their "freedoms".

Imagine people in Britain during WWII claiming blackout curtains infringe on their freedoms and ignoring the rule at the risk of their town being obliterated by German bombers and their neighbors getting killed.

I agree and in large part I blame the silly leadership at the top right now. The tone is just completely wrong.

That said, you are in Texas and I am in PA - different sensibilities.

Baal · Apr 27, 2020

NL, there are short term and long term changes needed. Short term we need to get though this.

A long term challenge is to alter people's lifestyle choices and acheive widespread ACCESS to primary care medicine. (In the US we could use more pediatricians and general internists and fewer cosmetic plastic surgeons and dermatologists, for example, but relative incomes of various medical specialties in the US show how broken our system is). Many countries spend much less and have far better health outcomes by every metric (life expectancy, chronic disease incidence, childbirth mortality, obesity, etc. etc.). Thay would include EVERY other developed country. There is no arguing this, the statistics are clear. Diet habits are part of it and clearly conventional diet advice for the last 50 years failed (low fat, high carb). Slowly it is changing. But getting that to permeate places that need it the most is challenging. But it is not just diet.

Making health care access dependent on the good will of an employer, and allowing large insurance companies to skim a substantial portion of the $ off the top is madness. Bear in mind those companies ARE rationing healthcare right now even though US spends far greater % of GDP on health than anyone else. (They will not pay for every drug or procedure that a doctor might want to do it it contradicts their own nameless and faceless guidelines). And big as they are, they are not big enough to negotiate good drug prices with Pharma, in contrast to, say, France.

I wonder when a vast number of rural Americans will wake up to the fact that they live an hour drive from ANY hospital, and that one probably sucks. Rural hospitals are disappearing one by one. That his just one of many things I could point out.

With that said, a new virus like this is going to hit everyplace hard.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 27, 2020

brokenball said:
You can keep your social distancing and the doors within the company shut be kept open so you don't need to touch the handles that others may have touched.

Why don't you just give details on what you think Should be Done.

I do think people getting back to work, as much as possible, as soon as possible, while trying to keep the spread of the virus as slow as we can is completely valid.

Why don't you tell us more ways we can implement as much of that as possible.

I also think, the people who can work remotely, working remotely has been very beneficial. Work utility services like Zoom, Slack, Google Hangouts/Classroom/Docs, are helping people be more productive while working remotely. And, obviously, not everyone can work offsite. But for the people who can, continuing to do that is useful to keeping the economy rolling as we also try to keep the spread of the virus from going too fast.

Ultimately, it does seem that, we need some form of treatment and/or a vaccine so everyone can have some level of immunity to the virus at some point. So, things like social distancing are not to stop you from getting it. But to make it so, as we all slowly get it or acquire immunity to it, we don't overwhelm the healthcare system as the number of people with antibodies and an immune system that can fight the virus grows. A population with immunity, with an immune system that can fight the virus is what we seem to need to be moving towards.

I guess the real question is, what is the best way to move towards that. And it is clear that people dying from the virus is bad and people dying from hunger as a byproduct of massive unemployment is also bad.

SARS-CoV-2; CoVID-19; Coronavirus; Updates and Information

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