SARS-CoV-2; CoVID-19; Coronavirus; Updates and Information

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NL, there are short term and long term changes needed. Short term we need to get though this.

A long term challenge is to alter people's lifestyle choices and acheive widespread ACCESS to primary care medicine. (In the US we could use more pediatricians and general internists and fewer cosmetic plastic surgeons and dermatologists, for example, but relative incomes of various medical specialties in the US show how broken our system is). Many countries spend much less and have far better health outcomes by every metric (life expectancy, chronic disease incidence, childbirth mortality, obesity, etc. etc.). Thay would include EVERY other developed country. There is no arguing this, the statistics are clear. Diet habits are part of it and clearly conventional diet advice for the last 50 years failed (low fat, high carb). Slowly it is changing. But getting that to permeate places that need it the most is challenging. But it is not just diet.

Making health care access dependent on the good will of an employer, and allowing large insurance companies to skim a substantial portion of the $ off the top is madness. Bear in mind those companies ARE rationing healthcare right now even though US spends far greater % of GDP on health than anyone else. (They will not pay for every drug or procedure that a doctor might want to do it it contradicts their own nameless and faceless guidelines). And big as they are, they are not big enough to negotiate good drug prices with Pharma, in contrast to, say, France.

I wonder when a vast number of rural Americans will wake up to the fact that they live an hour drive from ANY hospital, and that one probably sucks. Rural hospitals are disappearing one by one. That his just one of many things I could point out.

With that said, a new virus like this is going to hit everyplace hard.


The devil is always in the details. I do agree on the whole with what you have written. That said, I don't see a way with a virus like this in the population to avoid massive casualties.

When I was annoyed with leadership, I was really speaking about Trump. I watch his press conferences with disgust everyday. He just can't find the right attitude to the whole crisis.
 
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When you makes statements like this about treatments you should really give references / sources. You can sound like someone who knows all the answers that no one else knows about.
Regarding comments about a strong immune system though of course desirable, bear in mind that immune systems are strong against what they’re used to. Indigenous peoples with strong immune systems have been decimated by the introduction of to them new pathogens. Staying at home must be a preferable option to relying on immune systems un till they’ve had time to develop resistance to the pathogen

What I will say is that the new bad rap Chloroquine is getting is a bit of a political thing and I blame Trump in part for unprofessionally promoting it. I will let DerEchte respond but if he doesn't, I will write about what I know or have heard about some of these things.
 
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Even without complete lockdowns too many people chafe at the slightest measures that could reduce the impact of this, like being asked to wear face coverings.

As for lockdowns, especially in densely populated areas you need to keep the rate of new infections at a level where it doesnt overwhelm hospitals and their various resources. The resources include PPE, other supplies, and provider's time. Hospitals need to also be able to care for all the other diseases people have (which will include influenza in the fall). You dont want doctors and nurses getting sick. If hospitals can only take care of Covid-19 they will quickly go bankrupt (in rural areas of the US most hospitals are barely functioning as it is). That is the nature of the stupidly inefficient healthcare economic system we have in the US where we pay vastly more than any other country as % of GDP for embarrassingly bad outcomes.

That is the thing more than anything else that determines when lockdowns can end. It is reasonable to end lockdowns once hospitals can resume close to normal operations. Some places are there now, some are not. This also depends on how quickly hospitals can obtain materials they need. Right now that is a $hit$how.

Even once that happens and people are working, life cant go back to the way things were before. For some time we need to not stand so close, and get used to seeing others in masks (like Japan or Hong Kong). And people need to stay the hell home when they are sick.

Speaking for myself, TT is out of the question for months.

Frankly, it's been a jaw-dropping experience observing from the other side of the world, as an American. The response and leadership as exhibited by the West have reduced the word "science" to a laughing stock.

Folks in HK had started wearing masks even before Wuhan went into lockdown. I remember checking out some table tennis books at the library and ALL librarians already had masks on. I think about 1/3-1/2 of users had them on as well. People do get tired of it and drop their guards from time to time but they know the significance and are much more willing to comply. OTOH, watching the debate on masks and how broken the healthcare system in the US and Europe for the next 3 months was nothing short of puzzling and 毀三觀.
 
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Why don't you just give details on what you think Should be Done.

I do think people getting back to work, as much as possible, as soon as possible, while trying to keep the spread of the virus as slow as we can is completely valid.

Why don't you tell us more ways we can implement as much of that as possible.

I also think, the people who can work remotely, working remotely has been very beneficial. Work utility services like Zoom, Slack, Google Hangouts/Classroom/Docs, are helping people be more productive while working remotely. And, obviously, not everyone can work offsite. But for the people who can, continuing to do that is useful to keeping the economy rolling as we also try to keep the spread of the virus from going too fast.

Ultimately, it does seem that, we need some form of treatment and/or a vaccine so everyone can have some level of immunity to the virus at some point. So, things like social distancing are not to stop you from getting it. But to make it so, as we all slowly get it or acquire immunity to it, we don't overwhelm the healthcare system as the number of people with antibodies and an immune system that can fight the virus grows. A population with immunity, with an immune system that can fight the virus is what we seem to need to be moving towards.

I guess the real question is, what is the best way to move towards that. And it is clear that people dying from the virus is bad and people dying from hunger as a byproduct of massive unemployment is also bad.

A lot of those in the tech industry are managing well with working remotely, and it will be interesting to see if a permanent outcome of this is that people have more telework flexibility going forward (also, will be interesting to see if wearing masks becomes more commonplace in Europe/North America as it is in Asia).

Online schooling has been a disaster and students are so far set back by the widespread inability to get online teaching infrastructure adopted and utilized efficiently.
 
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A lot of those in the tech industry are managing well with working remotely, and it will be interesting to see if a permanent outcome of this is that people have more telework flexibility going forward (also, will be interesting to see if wearing masks becomes more commonplace in Europe/North America as it is in Asia).

Online schooling has been a disaster and students are so far set back by the widespread inability to get online teaching infrastructure adopted and utilized efficiently.

Having a kid in High School, I am seeing this first hand. :)
 
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In 1975 I was a high school student studying for college exam. Lack of teachers and schools due to war forced us to learn by ourselves from textbooks. There were no on line classes like now. My guess is everything will be fine and human beings can adapt well to any circumstances. Don't despair!
 
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What I will say is that the new bad rap Chloroquine is getting is a bit of a political thing and I blame Trump in part for unprofessionally promoting it. I will let DerEchte respond but if he doesn't, I will write about what I know or have heard about some of these things.

I don't personally have a clue about about chloriquine and its variants, head lice treatment, hyper dosing of Vit D, C or any other vitamin, Bicarb, injecting sunlight and drinking bleach (joking) just to name a few. We are however fortunate enough on TTD to have a couple of people who know what they're talking about and are educated enough to critique the research that is being done. I don't hear those people saying take this , that or the other. I just think if someone is going to promote some sort of cure or prevention then it needs to be backed up by decent evidence and that at the moment is wanting. Let's hope the next few weeks and months clear a lot of things up
 
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I don't personally have a clue about about chloriquine and its variants, head lice treatment, hyper dosing of Vit D, C or any other vitamin, Bicarb, injecting sunlight and drinking bleach (joking) just to name a few. We are however fortunate enough on TTD to have a couple of people who know what they're talking about and are educated enough to critique the research that is being done. I don't hear those people saying take this , that or the other. I just think if someone is going to promote some sort of cure or prevention then it needs to be backed up by decent evidence and that at the moment is wanting. Let's hope the next few weeks and months clear a lot of things up

Got it. I think a lot of people are smart enough to discern these things as much as possible. Everyone has bias and maybe I am somewhat biased to listen to DerEchte since we think similarly. But while I have heard anecdotally the same things he says about treatment in Germany and Korea, he probably should cite a source for it if he can.
 
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A lot of those in the tech industry are managing well with working remotely, and it will be interesting to see if a permanent outcome of this is that people have more telework flexibility going forward (also, will be interesting to see if wearing masks becomes more commonplace in Europe/North America as it is in Asia).

Online schooling has been a disaster and students are so far set back by the widespread inability to get online teaching infrastructure adopted and utilized efficiently.

What issues have your kids run into?

Our schools have been open but probably more than 50% of my daughter’s (13 y/o) lessons have been delivered remotely (mainly googles school suite) and she says that it’s been working “fairly ok”. The tests results / grades are similar to before the crisis.
 
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If we had the kind of lockdown they had in Wuhan, then I might agree with you. But one of the reasons Sweden didn't go that route was that they realized it was incompatible with their society. Maybe you need to familiarize yourself a bit more with what is actually going on in lockdowns in the USA. Raineverever has already posted some pictures of what people do. I drive sometimes by a hiking trail in Philadelphia and I see lots of people on the trail (all wearing masks admittedly now though they weren't when I first started). You still get people in supermarkets though the supermarkets are trying to enforce social distancing. This is not what happened in Wuhan.


If you are reading what I am writing (as opposed to just posting whatever you have heard from an expert about the lockdown), my question is not whether there should be measures to slow down the spread. My question is whether there can be a better balance given the issues that are faced right now. I honestly believe that social distancing has gone a long way to slow the spread. What concerns me is whether the forced closure of business is causing more harm than help. I think right now even if social distancing measures were relaxed, only people with the greatest need to do essential activities and who thought they were not at risk would go out. You would have the occasional idiot here and there, but people can keep the economy moving at a slower pace. The current shutdown is just affecting all kinds of things. The question that isn't being clearly answered is how much is the shutdown buying us over taking measures to slow the spread but allowing businesses to stay open (in which case store owners and individuals would have to risk manage better)?

Maybe I am a bit annoyed at the whole thing because this kind of disease shows how the current madness where people are being fed sugar laden processed food diets that promote chronic diseases is impervious to self correction even in the face of a disease that clearly thrives on this issue with the human physiology. In America too, lots of younger people are at risk (though one could argue that they are also the same people at risk from diabetes etc , this disease is unfortunately not as forgiving in time scale). My health was already ruined to a large degree by living the lifestyle that America layers its healthcare system over. And now, they tell people to go home and stay with their cheap processed food and wait for a vaccine to cure the disease. Good luck with that in all directions.

No one expects the level achieved in Wuhan given the cultural difference. They couldn't even enforce something as simple as this. But this is no excuse to lift it as Fauci warned. I could upload a TV clip that aired 2 weeks ago from two New Yorkers from HK feel about this so-called stay-at-home/shelter-in-place order. How one photographer says the general public refuses to wear masks because of pride. How one restaurant owner points out the general Americans don't watch international news as opposed to the Chinese Americans and those in Hong Kong, leading them into this mess. Perhaps that could familiarize you with how the outside world is looking at the US right now.
 
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What issues have your kids run into?

Our schools have been open but probably more than 50% of my daughter’s (13 y/o) lessons have been delivered remotely (mainly googles school suite) and she says that it’s been working “fairly ok”. The tests results / grades are similar to before the crisis.

Teachers can't figure out how to use the software provided. Administration has been awful in delivering the training to teachers in a timely manner. Teachers all use various software, so a student can be left guessing which program each class is going to be taught in. Long ramp up time meant lots of missed instruction, and curriculums being delayed. Communication of when classes are going to be held is poor. These are just a few of the issues but I do think, unfortunately, a lot of it has come down to some people being incompetent with software and technology that they should be able to figure out in 2020.
 
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Why don't you just give details on what you think Should be Done.

He has.

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What I will say is that the new bad rap Chloroquine is getting is a bit of a political thing and I blame Trump in part for unprofessionally promoting it. I will let DerEchte respond but if he doesn't, I will write about what I know or have heard about some of these things.

With all due respect, too many people are stating stuff that is not evidence-based. There is real evidence and not so real evidence. Evidence we have to date on this is not allowing many conclusions except that it isn't anything like a miracle cure given later on in the course of the disease. Rumors or "things I've heard" are not very helpful, especially when they come from people who don't really have the professional background to evaluate it and to discern plausible stuff from what is pretty nonsensical. With all due respect, what DerEchte has to say about chloroquine is not even remotely authoritative. He knows a lot about other stuff undoubtedly and he has always been one of my favorite posters.

I will add that most physicians are not generally trained in statistics.

In terms of political trends, I am worried about the tendency of certain forces out there to demonize people who actually know what they are talking about if it doesn't align with their hopes and desires. As an aside, I think that government health experts are getting too much air time. They have an inherent and undeclared conflict of interest (not wanting to lose their jobs). In my view the main people being interviewed ought to be university experts on epidemiology, infectious disease, etc.

That includes Fauci. He's a great scientist but he is far from the only one. There are many people in the US equally qualified who can speak freely without having to worry about who they piss off.
 
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Everyone ought to question things, no bad deal there. It is a positive. I offer freely some things I have seen that may relate.

The use of vitamin c IV has been documented for decades in studies to be effective vs virus. I'm not gonna bring the long list out or fight on behalf of who did them or make a mission to convince everyone. I do not see every mention of every approach in this thread with an inclusion of all study involved.

There are some who will not accept that vit c is is effective vs a virus. That is fine. We should all believe and accept when we are convinced. If you feel you are in the first day early stage of a mild flu or cold, try a few grams of ascorbic acid your self a few times and see for yourself.

When I get to laptop, I will bring out the small study of vit c in for Corona recently done in China, sample size really too small, that doctor did not have enough patients come to him... but results were effective. The media articlez of Korea and some NYC hospitals using this are there.

The recent results of hdc by itself in the several studies have not been effective, but study not done with zinc. Some study was stopped with side effect concerns. There have been enough recent news about this. I think Baal mentioned the same thing recently.

Individual discernment and free thinking are important. Consider anything I say or do ... or what anyone says or does as bs until one is convinced themself in their heart or mind.

Not every medical advice advocated by medical "authority" has been beneficial in my nation's history, especially about nutrition and its impact on health. Our own country's highest medical authority for decades advocated lots of processed grains, which are one of the worst things for the body with continued consumption. Study after study showed that it causes many inflammatory conditions... and many in industry opposed it.

We have a medical industry in my nation that by now should understand decades of super overconsumption of hfcs sugar and refined grains often results in diabetes or pre-diabetes, but the common medical approach is to not identify and correct poor diet of a pre or diabetic person, but to go for drug treatment approach.

Study after study is showing negative effects of many gmo products, Europe will not permit some, but usa fights for them. Even recently made a law prohibiting directly marking product as containing gmo.

Despite proven study and science, sometimes medical and political authority will support the other side. Cigarettes, opioids, gmos, and mass sugar/grain pushing

It is good sense to look at something someone says and figure out for yourself whether to believe it or not.





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No one expects the level achieved in Wuhan given the cultural difference. They couldn't even enforce something as simple as this. But this is no excuse to lift it as Fauci warned. I could upload a TV clip that aired 2 weeks ago from two New Yorkers from HK feel about this so-called stay-at-home/shelter-in-place order. How one photographer says the general public refuses to wear masks because of pride. How one restaurant owner points out the general Americans don't watch international news as opposed to the Chinese Americans and those in Hong Kong, leading them into this mess. Perhaps that could familiarize you with how the outside world is looking at the US right now.


This is no excuse to lift what? The lockdown on businesses? Maybe one should consider how many people are wearing masks compared to how many didn't before. Compliance has gone way up. And there was evidence that before shutdowns that social distancing was working.

How people look at the US is not much of my concern since I have my own views on that issue. What I care about is that a balance is being continually sought between the benefits and costs of what is happening. You said Wuhan took 76 days - how long do you think it will take in the US since Wuhan needed that much time?

For me, all I have to say to explain why the public doesn't wear masks is to watch the press conference at the White House. The leaders are not communicating the urgency by example.
 
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Teachers can't figure out how to use the software provided. Administration has been awful in delivering the training to teachers in a timely manner. Teachers all use various software, so a student can be left guessing which program each class is going to be taught in. Long ramp up time meant lots of missed instruction, and curriculums being delayed. Communication of when classes are going to be held is poor. These are just a few of the issues but I do think, unfortunately, a lot of it has come down to some people being incompetent with software and technology that they should be able to figure out in 2020.

This was a problem for me delivering university content on-line. I did what I could in a hurry. I had a week to come up with something. It is not optimal.

I am not as competent with some kinds of software as I would like or probably should be (there are a lot of things in Zoom and Microsoft teams that I could use more effectively, and there are lots of educational software I had never used before). Fortunately I am a Grand Master of Powerpoint. It did the job in a pinch.
 
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Baal, in the US Army, your level of proficiency of Power Point would get you the title of Power Point Ranger.

That is significant in that the Army Rangers, that special type of soldier is distinguished by wearing RANGER on a special tab on a certain part of the uniform.

Power Point Ranger is a very common Army term used to say that someone is very very good with PowerPoint.

It is common to say you have a PowerPoint tab

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This was a problem for me delivering university content on-line. I did what I could in a hurry. I had a week to come up with something. It is not optimal.

I am not as competent with some kinds of software as I would like or probably should be (there are a lot of things in Zoom and Microsoft teams that I could use more effectively, and there are lots of educational software I had never used before). Fortunately I am a Grand Master of Powerpoint. It did the job in a pinch.

I was actually referring more to high schools - I am guessing universities have it a little more under control but the transition for a lot of high schools or middle schools has not been good.
 
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