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    1. Top | #61
      Jimbob MacInbred is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zyu81 View Post
      Perhaps it's time for him to change his title from "Verified Youtuber" to "Verified Plagarizer" and/or "Verified for constant copyright infringement"...
      Last edited by Jimbob MacInbred; 11-24-2020 at 07:57 PM.

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    3. Top | #62
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zyu81 View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by Jimbob MacInbred View Post
      Perhaps it's time for him to change his title from "Verified Youtuber" to "Verified Plagarizer" and/or "Verified for constant copyright infringement"...
      Yeah. I feel it is pretty odd that, in this online world, you can make money by stealing things from other people so easily.

      And so many seem to be okay with it or oblivious to it.
      Spin Everything.

    4. Top | #63
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      Quote Originally Posted by EmRatThich View Post
      Yes, it could be great. My technique is not as good as the pro's player. In the video, I would like to analyse the playing style of Lin Yun Ju. I could explain my playing style too, but it's not interesting.

      But in the long term, I will film and explain the techniques like Ma Long Fanmade channel.
      7 months and 22 videos later, still no filmed and explained techniques.

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    6. Top | #64
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zyu81 View Post
      7 months and 22 videos later, still no filmed and explained techniques.
      I wonder what would happen to his popularity if people saw how he actually plays.

      Simple fundamentals of any sport where you hit a ball with a racket or bat:



      1) Notice how relaxed up until contact.
      2) Notice how the back leg is loaded and the weight is transferred to the front leg during the swing.
      3) Notice the core rotation that goes with the weight transfer and the swing.
      4) Notice how, on contact, so many muscles from legs, core, arms brace and engage on contact helping to transfer power into the ball.
      5) Notice how the wrists accelerate the stroke on contact making the bat move through the strike zone faster as contact is occurring.

      Are any of those details really Chinese Secrets? These are simple, fundamental mechanics that need to be in place for any high level stroke in any sport that uses a racket or bat to hit a ball.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 11-26-2020 at 09:33 AM.

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    8. Top | #65
      zeio is offline
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      Race for Tokyo 2020+1 - Women's Top 11, Japan
      Time capsules - 2020, 2024, 2028

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    10. Top | #66
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      Not enough randomly selected slow mo clips of Ma Long or kids in a Chinese TT school anyways.

      What do those Korean guys know anyways? Surely they don't have the secrets.

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    12. Top | #67
      zeio is offline
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      Betcha haven't seen this!


      合理的かつ緻密な卓球理論で世界をリードする中国。
      その強さの秘密である多彩な技術を、この1枚に完全網羅。
      3人のトップ選手による映像、そして中国代表選手の実戦映像から「中国卓球の神髄」を学ぼう。
      China leads the world with rational and precise table tennis theory.
      A variety of techniques that is the secret of its strength is completely covered in this one piece.
      Learn the "Essence of Chinese Table Tennis" from videos of the 3 top players and actual matches of the CNT players.


    13. Top | #68
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      So, there have been studies done on sports activities and the learning of physical skills. They did tests with kids learning to shoot a basketball. They had three groups. The first group just shot free throws. The second group just imagined shooting the perfect shot while sitting on the benches. And a third group shot free throws, and every time they hit a particularly good shot, they went off and imagined shooting that shot over and over; and then they went back to shooting until they hit another particularly good shot and repeated the process.

      --Group two, who just imaged shooting showed no improvements.
      --Group one, where they just shot the ball showed fairly normal levels of improvement in line with what you would expect.
      --Group three improved significantly more than group one because of the visualizations between rounds of physical practice.

      The studies showed that, imagining without having done, does not stimulate the neural pathways or the muscle engagements needed to improve the action. It also showed that just practicing the physical action without the imaging done side by side was still useful. But that the body and the neural systems learned the action more fully when the participants were imagining an action that they had done themselves and felt previously.

      It is interesting information.

      I do think there are some people who do play and do benefit from ERT's videos. But I also think, the vast majority of people who like and think they benefit from ERT's videos are sort of like that first group. Or, like the guy watching Olympic Diving who thinks: "Yeah, I could do that," never having practiced diving before......

      ERT's popularity is tied to a decent percentage of low level players imagining that their strokes are comparable to the strokes of high level pros and that what they are doing is like what those top pros are doing.

      And so, we come to the part where we discuss how valuable it is to record footage of yourself playing and then to watch the footage of yourself. Over time, this really helps you improve because, usually, at first, when you see what you are doing, it is far from what you were imagining you were doing. Over time, you get more able to image what you are actually doing and you get more capable of performing the strokes and shots you image when you are imagining yourself making the shots.

      So, even though, ERT's videos may have a certain amount of value for some, the value is limited because it is presenting only an unrealistic ideal. And the people who gravitate towards his info, perhaps they have not heard the simple things he is saying before despite the flawed delivery of the content which poses that certain geographic locations or ethnic groups have a lock on secrets that other people don't have access to (aside from ERT)[in short, in spite of his marketing scheme which increased the popularity and limits the value].

    14. Top | #69
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    15. Top | #70
      zeio is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      The studies showed that, imagining without having done, does not stimulate the neural pathways or the muscle engagements needed to improve the action. It also showed that just practicing the physical action without the imaging done side by side was still useful. But that the body and the neural systems learned the action more fully when the participants were imagining an action that they had done themselves and felt previously.

      ...

      So, even though, ERT's videos may have a certain amount of value for some, the value is limited because it is presenting only an unrealistic ideal. And the people who gravitate towards his info, perhaps they have not heard the simple things he is saying before despite the flawed delivery of the content which poses that certain geographic locations or ethnic groups have a lock on secrets that other people don't have access to (aside from ERT)[in short, in spite of his marketing scheme which increased the popularity and limits the value].
      Reminds me of Timo Boll Webcoach.

    16. Top | #71
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      Reminds me of Timo Boll Webcoach.
      Can you elaborate, in your own words, on what, in my description, reminds you of that discussion on the Timo Boll Webcoach discussion from MyTT? It would be interesting to hear you explain what you are hinting at and alluding to.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 11-26-2020 at 10:05 AM.

    17. Top | #72
      zeio is offline
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      The web coaching model doesn't really work. It's like a mix of the 1st and 2nd groups in that study yet it's not the 3rd group.

      Various (REAL ) Chinese coaches on pingpangwang.com have been doing that for free for the last several years, where people send in clips and they point out what to fix. In addition to demonstrating various basic strokes, Guo Yunpeng(site founder) has also done various clips in which he adds a description of the pros doing their strokes, pointing out various things here and there. I'd translated a few of both but honestly they were not that helpful to beginners. The pointers by the coaches are good but the problem is the learning process involves interpretation and people interpret words differently. As written in that post I linked, "There is a certain aspect of stroke learning where words simply don't work and a real coach is irreplaceable."
      Last edited by zeio; 11-26-2020 at 01:10 PM.

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    19. Top | #73
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      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      The web coaching model doesn't really work. It's like a mix of the 1st and 2nd groups in that study yet it's not the 3rd group.

      Various (REAL ) Chinese coaches on pingpangwang.com have been doing that for free for the last several years, where people send in clips and they point out what to fix. In addition to demonstrating various basic strokes, Guo Yunpeng(site founder) has also done various clips in which he adds a description of the pros doing their strokes, pointing out various things here and there. I'd translated a few of both but honestly they were not that helpful to beginners. The pointers by the coaches are good but the problem is the learning process involves interpretation and people interpret words differently. As written in that post I linked, "There is a certain aspect of stroke learning where words simply don't work and a real coach is irreplaceable."
      Yeah. This is a great insight. And your explanation is really good. Without it, I could have interpreted any number of things that I see as comparable from the TBWebCoach thing.

      I do think that some of why the Web Coaching model is not quite so viable has to do with the process of practice and refinement.

      When someone who knows what they are looking at (like a coach) gets you to try something a little different, you try it, if it was not what they wanted to see, they give a visual, maybe make your body move how it should, then you try it. When you get what they are trying to show you, you feel it, and your neural pathways remember it. And then you also, without meaning to or realizing it, based on the process of the coach getting you to understand what you are trying to do, you end up visualizing it. Which does help the neural pathways, as long as the muscle memory is already in place.

      So, yes. Coaching, systematically uses what happens in #3 and it does it much more effectively. Because it fast tracks you to the better technique while there is a process for you to visualize and then practice (the coach shows, maybe makes you feel).

      I am not a coach. But I teach something. At SPiN, Mieczylslaw (Matthew) Suchy often would be coaching someone and he would call me over and ask me to block, and he would go to the other side of the table and stand behind the student and hold their racket, their hips, and move them, do the stroke with them, with their entire body. I would hit for maybe 4-8 balls. Then he would go back to feeding. And, invariably, they would be performing the stroke better.

      I remember one time I was at a club in NYC's Chinatown and someone (not a coach) was trying to teach a beginner something they weren't doing. He kept saying what she needed to do in a way he understood. But, it seemed she could not do it. I asked if I could help. I imitated Suchy and guided her racket through the stroke while hitting the ball. I did it about 10 times. No words. I just got her to feel what this guy was trying to get her to learn. That was all she needed, her racket guided through the contact of the ball approximately 10 times. Then she was able to do what this guy was trying to teach her.

      I guess, another reason why a good, in person coach, is very valuable is, different people learn in different ways. And a good coach will be able to read when someone is not understanding the instructions and change them until the student gets what the coach is trying to teach them.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 11-26-2020 at 03:26 PM.

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    21. Top | #74
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      And it has happened many times that someone who was a beginner, who said they learned by watching videos of Ma Long or something, and thought they were doing Chinese style play, and thought they were at a much higher level than they were at.....when they finally showed footage of their play, it was clear that they were not doing any of what they thought they were, to everyone on the forum, and once in a while, even to themselves. hahahaha.

      I have seen at least a few people who thought they were doing a "Ma Long" forehand when in point of fact, they were not even doing an actual stroke, and instead where lining their racket in the path of the ball and pushing forward to make contact.

      Without feedback that got them to understand what they were and were not doing, they had no idea that what they were doing was in any way different from Ma Long's FH stroke.

      And interestingly, from watching, if you actually know table tennis, you would realize that ML, FZD, ZJK, WLQ and anyone else you want to add to the list, they all have different strokes.....none of them have the same strokes. Some of this has to do with the fact that our bodies are all different....different length upper arm to forearm, different length torso, legs....different grip on racket....So, even at the level of the top pros, they don't simply have the same strokes as another player. They develop their own strokes over a lifetime of play. No amateur can mimic ML's strokes and end up having them.

      And lets not talk about serve receive and game skills.....much harder skills to learn that make the coaches even that much more important.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 11-26-2020 at 03:30 PM.

    22. Top | #75
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      I am not a coach. But I teach something. At SPiN, Mieczylslaw (Matthew) Suchy often would be coaching someone and he would call me over and ask me to block, and he would go to the other side of the table and stand behind the student and hold their racket, their hips, and move them, do the stroke with them, with their entire body. I would hit for maybe 4-8 balls. Then he would go back to feeding. And, invariably, they would be performing the stroke better.

      I remember one time I was at a club in NYC's Chinatown and someone (not a coach) was trying to teach a beginner something they weren't doing. He kept saying what she needed to do in a way he understood. But, it seemed she could not do it. I asked if I could help. I imitated Suchy and guided her racket through the stroke while hitting the ball. I did it about 10 times. No words. I just got her to feel what this guy was trying to get her to learn. That was all she needed, her racket guided through the contact of the ball approximately 10 times. Then she was able to do what this guy was trying to teach her.

      I guess, another reason why a good, in person coach, is very valuable is, different people learn in different ways. And a good coach will be able to read when someone is not understanding the instructions and change them until the student gets what the coach is trying to teach them.
      To illustrate the above, AKA the "utility" of in-person coaching:

      In the video below(thanks for stealing my sub, LOL), Li Sun did exactly that on the forearm snap and finger squeeze with that handshake. However, I remember there was a comment asking what I meant by "don't snap inward" despite the motion as demonstrated by Li Sun. I rephrased it as "towards the body" but I still didn't know if I got across. That was one occasion where words just failed to work.


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    24. Top | #76
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      Back on the subject of ERT: It really does surprise me that so many people don't seem to register that his content is lifted from others.

      I have seen videos where it was shown, even the things he was saying was lifted from another YouTuber who was posting in a different language (it may have been Vietnamese). So, basically he translated the content, with his voice doing voiceover on the other person's video and presented it as original content.

      I just don't get why this kind of content piracy does not bother or even register on more of his "followers".

    25. Top | #77
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Carl is Kraking It
      I do think there are some people who do play and do benefit from ERT's videos. But I also think, the vast majority of people who like and think they benefit from ERT's videos are sort of like that first group.
      I would run out of fingers, toes, limbs, ears, and organ parts trying to count how many people in Sacramento are doing this.

      Yet, as much as we would dislike that, this is what and why all these people enjoy about TT and it keeps them motivated and in the sport, so it isn't a national crime.

      Quote Originally Posted by Carl Be Quoting
      I have seen at least a few people who thought they were doing a "Ma Long" forehand when in point of fact, they were not even doing an actual stroke, and instead where lining their racket in the path of the ball and pushing forward to make contact.
      I cannot even come close to ballpark quantifying how many adults I have pointed this out to, how many I showed how to command the strike zone, and how many still continue to go down that path... which shows what I perceive to be taking the easiest way. (it is much easier to just impact everything way in front and tense up/slow it all down, since it produces more consistent impact at first)

      ... I guess it shows the RTC factor (Resistance to Change)

      >>> I also guess, (or one could say emphatically state) that it is a reflection of Der_Echte's failure to convince and connect with said players and an overall failure to effectively coach.
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    26. Top | #78
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      I cannot even come close to ballpark quantifying how many adults I have pointed this out to, how many I showed how to command the strike zone, and how many still continue to go down that path... which shows what I perceive to be taking the easiest way. (it is much easier to just impact everything way in front and tense up/slow it all down, since it produces more consistent impact at first)

      ... I guess it shows the RTC factor (Resistance to Change)

      >>> I also guess, (or one could say emphatically state) that it is a reflection of Der_Echte's failure to convince and connect with said players and an overall failure to effectively coach.
      It is hard to quantify how hard it is to override habitual patterns, neural pathways, muscle memory....on this.

      Also, to understand how much harder it is to track and intercept a ball than it is to line up in the path of the ball and push forward if you are struggling to make contact in the first place.

      Once that is the habit, correcting is very hard. And the person doing this, most likely is feeling that they are making an actual stroke even though they are not.

      With simple movement patterns, like movements for daily living, usually, all that is needed to correct a sub-optimal movement pattern is to replace it with a more efficient (better) moment pattern, and the less functional movement pattern is replaced.

      Because there are so many moving parts in a TT stroke, most importantly reading the spin, the arc, the curve, the bounce/kick, the overall trajectory of the ball, to functionally replace a habitual pattern of movement like the one we are describing, and replace it with a more functional stroke is a very complex matter; and it would take months and months of repeating the mechanically more efficient stoke to the point where the ability to track and intercept the ball is good enough for the person to feel confident they do not need to line the racket up with the ball in order to simply make contact with the ball.

      The reason is, in a proper stroke, the only point where the trajectory of the racket and the ball actually INTERCEPT, is at the arc of the stroke and the flight of the ball where the point of contact is made. An inch or two before the racket will make contact with the ball, the racket is not at all in line with the ball. For a right handed FH stroke, the racket would be to the left of the arc of the ball. And the ball, would either be below or above the height of the racket's arc depending on what part of the arc of the bounce you make contact.

      --ie, a) if you make contact while the ball is on the rise or at the top of the bounce, moments before contact, the ball would be below the arc of the swing of the racket, (and to the right of where the racket is).
      --ie, b) if you contact the ball as the ball is past its peak, then, movements before contact, the ball will be higher than the path of the racket.

      So, this is why, developing the skills to track and intercept the ball are so valued in any racket sport. And this is also why the mechanically more effective and efficient use of energy in stroke does not automatically replace the less effective stroke. The stroke that, mechanically applies more speed and spin to the ball (more power to the ball) is more effective in that sense. But in the sense of being efficient at insuring contact, the mechanically cumbersome stroke is more effective at insuring contact.

      If anyone is not sure what the heck Der_Echte and I are talking about:



      That video shows the difference between pushing forward and an actual stroke.

      I recently made a video for MOG about how his FH stroke is often half way in between the push forward and the real stroke without quite being either.

      These are truly hard habits to change though. Especially if you think your FH is good, or don't realize how much more spin and power you could add with a mechanically sound stroke.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 11-26-2020 at 08:05 PM.

    27. Top | #79
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      I think it might be difficult to calculate the number of people I tried to such things in Carl's presence... and I do not think I have even visited NYC 10 times yet. I am a true sucker in that I have a fatal flaw of unstoppable natural instinct to help people for free... which makes me a damn unsuccessful coach for money. Carl has a similar instinct.

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