Innerforce Layer ALC blade compared with ZLF version

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Bro. It cost too much and There is no value in this rubber.
Vs 402 double extra is semi tacky rubber like 09c
The sponge wont be as good as Dignics 09 c
But it cost 1/3
You propably want to impress people with new new rubber.
This is your money and everybody will be more impressive when you will be better player and they wont be jealous about your richness or dumbness.
Practice more.

A little bit off topic but I can’t resist. VS402 is a specialty rubber designed for chopping (but has some limited offensive capabilities). It’s very very different to D09. I’ve played quite a bit with both with VS401/402 but only for a few minutes with D09C.
 
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Of course you cant compare the sponges because I think Butterfly has something special with their quality of work.
But you can see spin ability and
if you match with soft off-blade, you propably dont need fancy 09 .
 
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They’re completely different rubbers. It’s not an ESN hybrid type rubber like Tibhar K1/2 or Joola Golden Tango. It’s a chopping rubber that will dampen the ball but will still allow you to do SOME offensive strokes. Not my cup of tea but a guy I know that plays 1st division and plays classic defense can’t stop praising it. Anyone looking for an alternative to D09C should not be looking as the VS series from Victas.
 
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Hello Carl and Konrad
Thank you once again. I am learning a lot from you guys and wish I had made contact with you earlier. I appreciate your patience in helping me on this subject.
I have listed the blades suggested by Carl, together with their statistics as quoted on the websites of Revspin and Stoni Tenis. These are the only reference points that I know about that appear to be independent although they are not necessarily without some distortion as they are all based on personal opinion. I will do the same thing with Konrad’s list of rubbers to aid in making a comparison.
One thing that I have omitted to tell you is that I am in my early seventies although I am quite fit for my age and particularly fast. However I have to be realistic and suggest that I am not going to be as strong as I was or as other younger men which may alter your opinion of the type of blade that you recommend. Maybe you will feel that a slightly faster blade may assist me but from the comments I have received from opposition and from a few coaching sessions, I appear to generate quite a lot of spin and a pretty fast loop drive. As I said in an earlier post, I am looking to maintain those aspects of my game while improving my ability to create ‘open ups’ quickly using BH and FH flicks - banana/Chiquita etc.
I have attached the list of blades suggested by Carl and the consistency appears to be reasonable but not excessive speed with good control and decent dwell time for looping because of the lower stiffness and hardness. I have listed my main contending blades at the top in red followed by my initial short list of 5 blades in blue and then followed by Carl’s list in black. I have added the Kong Linghui blade at the bottom for comparison.
It is interesting that many of these blades compare closely to the Avalox P500 as suggested but with some appearing possibly to be slightly superior according to your recommendations such as: Avalox J-Tech, Butterfly Innerforce Layer ALC, Butterfly Innerforce Layer ZLF, OSP Virtuoso Off-. Assuming that you agree with the stats quoted by the two websites, is it possible for you to shortlist your recommendation or are they all much of a muchness apart from price?
I am certainly not looking to impress anyone with my equipment; just the quality of my game. I want to finalise a setup ready for the new season when lockdown is over and train hard to improve to my full potential.
I will complete the list of Konrad’s rubber suggestions next but I should add that I was intending to buy the setup complete as I have no experience with gluing rubbers or boosting them. However I am fairly practical and sure I could soon learn.
Keep well and safe guys.
 
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I would just ignore those numbers. And I definitely would not waste the time to make the list with the rubbers. If I just listed a bunch of numbers between 80-100 randomly for each blade, they would be more accurate than the speed numbers on most of those.

Here, I will give you an example: Korbel and Stratus Power Wood are almost the same. The plies are the same. The thickness is very close. Head size is almost the same. I have had had Korbels in my hand that were faster than Power Woods and vice versa. The difference in speed listed seems arbitrary. Another example, the Virtuoso Plus that I use is leagues faster than the Offensive Ss that I have tried and yet they are listed as statistically almost the same.

Another ridiculous idea: the Balsa 6.5 has a speed of 9.5 and control 9.5. In general speed and control are inversely correlated and a Balsa blade in general is very fast but not good for feeling or control. So the idea that the fastest blade on the list, which is a Balsa Fiberglass blade also is listed as being the easiest to control is just silly.

So, from my perspective, listing the numbers for the rubbers would be a mistake because all of those numbers are a waste of time. Not just a waste of time. But they are confusing and give people absolutely the wrong idea about different pieces of equipment. I would honestly just never look at them again if I was you. They are meant to make you want to buy products.

However, if you are of the age you have stated, then, a blade slightly faster to help you generate some extra speed would be fine. How about the Fang Bo 2 blade. It is inner carbon. It is Limba top ply. It costs less. And it will be a good blade. It will be fast but good for generating spin. So it will help you on the speed side and still help you generate more spin.

BTW: if you are in your 70s, I highly doubt the D09C will be useful to you. The idea with the HARD rubbers, and particularly this one is, the speed capability comes out when you have deep impact with a lot of force behind your contact while brushing (not direct contact). When you do that, that kind of rubber excels. When your contact is not beastly hard, you get less from the rubber.

So, if you had amazing footwork, were always in a good position to take your shot, and could really put your whole body into your shots, like, the level of the guys in Dan's video, that level, then D09C would be a good choice.

But, probably, based on what you are describing, T05 or MXP would really be rubbers that would be better suited to your needs, probably T05 more so than MXP because MXP is a little harder. T05 more spin; MXP more speed. :)

Hopefully this is helpful.

And again, if I saw footage of you playing, I could probably say more specifically what would be best for you. But I do have to be honest with you, I doubt you need a new setup. I bet you could just use the Aruna blade and buy new rubbers and have someone help you glue them on. Once you have done it once or twice, it is pretty easy to do.

And it is a bit crazy to think that every time you get new rubbers you need to also get a new blade because you don't know how to do something that, really, anyone can do.
 
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Just swiping through. You've tried an all+, off and off+ blade.. (with good speed-control ratio ratings) but you still think you don't have found the optimal blade?
Firstly, I do agree on the note that TSP Balsa does not seem ideal, being a stiff 'smacking' type blade..
for your openings, Both Aruna off and P5000 should be able to do that better.
Secondly, on a budget... Butterfly is the last place I would go to, they are overpriced.. I mean you can argue about their quality all day, but, the bottom line is that the price raise is not worth the "edge" that you may or may not get. Unless you're rich or a sponsored pro player. The butterfly blades that do get cloned by Chinese brands, are normally 1/4th sometimes 1/5th of the price. and European clones are normally half the price or more, so butterfly is really pushing their branding past a reasonable edge impo.

Anyway back to the blades, Aruna Off is a Hinoki Koto Carbon Kiri Carbon Koto Hinoki
While P5000, is Koto-Spruce as earlier mentioned.
P5000, and most other koto top ply blades, are more ideal for counter-tempo games.
Joola Aruna off, as a hinoki top ply, is arguably a better blade for breaking tempo. Great for blocks and loops, has an edge on late loops, while on tempo (ball at the top of it's course or earlier) limba and koto normally has the edge. (you checked out Aruna Quadri playing? for Joola Off ref)
Limba is sort of (stereo typically) the jack of all trades. Great loops, good blocks, softer and less hard than koto, but still, in most blades, shorter rebound than hinoki type blades, but longer than koto. (although it might vary depending on 2nd ply, core, composite etc) On the top 100 limba has majority with koto on second.

Could you compare the Aruna Off and P5000 to present what you personally feel is lacking in these blades?
And whether you have any preference on the different feels the blades provide?

And as a side note, Yinhe M202 is an Innerforce alc clone. With a small difference in composite material. (eg. POLYETHYLENE Carbon, instead of alc, not a significant difference) Yinhe Pro Feeling is also similar, but while M202 is more similar to Innerforce alc in speed, Yinhe pro feeling is faster than both The Innerforce and Viscaria.
At 42$ it's a bargain I'd take any day ahead of Butts 200$ blades.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32929293810.html?spm=2114.12057483.0.0.713033badvFZQt
 
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Stay with p500 and that will be good choice

If he is in his 70s and wants a little extra from the blade, I can understand that. I can't be sure, because, again, I still have not seen him play. But if he is in his 70s, he is probably not going to learn to do what the P500 would help him learn to do.

So, the Aruna blade is likely fine. A blade with Carbon is likely fine. But that Balsa blade.....???? Just say no to drugs! :)

So, he could try to stick with the P500. But he could also stick with the Aruna. Or an inexpensive inner carbon like the Fang Bo 2 that I listed above might be fine. So would any number of inner carbon blades from Chinese companies where the blade is good but is not as expensive as the Butterfly blades.

And if he is in that category of older folks who would be helped by a little carbon, then he should be using medium soft rubbers and definitely not hard rubbers. If he had the impact to use the hard rubbers the way they are meant to be used, then he should not use Carbon.

And, to me, to save Basmundo's wallet, probably, as important as anything else, is, he needs to find someone who knows how to glue and cut rubbers near him, and watch them do it once and then start doing it himself, or continue to get them to do it. Even if he pays them a small amount of cash. Thinking you need to get a new blade every time you get a new set of rubbers is going to be way too expensive. And some of why people are scared to try themselves is, messing up can be expensive. But, there are many easy ways of cutting rubbers.

And again, the best we can do concerning appropriate equipment without seeing Basmundo play is guess. But what I have presented has decent odds behind it. :)
 
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If he is in his 70s and wants a little extra from the blade, I can understand that. I can't be sure, because, again, I still have not seen him play. But if he is in his 70s, he is probably not going to learn to do what the P500 would help him learn to do.

So, the Aruna blade is likely fine. A blade with Carbon is likely fine. But that Balsa blade.....???? Just say no to drugs! :)

So, he could try to stick with the P500. But he could also stick with the Aruna. Or an inexpensive inner carbon like the Fang Bo 2 that I listed above might be fine. So would any number of inner carbon blades from Chinese companies where the blade is good but is not as expensive as the Butterfly blades.

And if he is in that category of older folks who would be helped by a little carbon, then he should be using medium soft rubbers and definitely not hard rubbers. If he had the impact to use the hard rubbers the way they are meant to be used, then he should not use Carbon.

And, to me, to save Basmundo's wallet, probably, as important as anything else, is, he needs to find someone who knows how to glue and cut rubbers near him, and watch them do it once and then start doing it himself, or continue to get them to do it. Even if he pays them a small amount of cash. Thinking you need to get a new blade every time you get a new set of rubbers is going to be way too expensive. And some of why people are scared to try themselves is, messing up can be expensive. But, there are many easy ways of cutting rubbers.

And again, the best we can do concerning appropriate equipment without seeing Basmundo play is guess. But what I have presented has decent odds behind it. :)

Thank you again Carl and Konrad
Firstly I should say that my original statement about this choice “representinga considerable investment for me” was more about the importance of the decisionrather than the financial aspect. Certainly I don’t want to spend unnecessarilybut I have £300 ($330) that I am be willing and able to pay for this setupwithout hesitation to achieve the desired result.
It would appear that an arylate carbon blade was, by accident, not sucha bad initial idea of mine. Neither of you were aware of my age which possiblywhy you were initially leaning towards an all wood blade.
I managed the speed of the balsa blade OK and didn’t drop a set whenlast used in anger. However I now understand, thanks to you guys, that it isnot ideally suited to my style.
The Aruna blade that I have has 1.9/2.0mm EL-S rubber on the FH and 1.9/2.0mmFX-S on the BH, which, if I am understanding things correctly, is not a badsetup for my needs. That being the case I am inclined to leave that availablefor me and buy the complete new setup to your recommendation. I understand thatit is not ideal that you have not seen a video of me playing but that is notpossible in the circumstances and I want to be ready with the new bat for whenlockdown is lifted. I am hoping that you will advise me therefore.
The question is, which blade with the carbon behind 2 layers of plywould be best for me:
Fang Bo Carbon?
Hurricane Long 5? Better than Fang Bo?
Innerforce Layer ALC?
Innerforce Layer ZLF? Slightly slower than ALC?

Regarding rubber, if you remember that spin is of importance to me formid-distance loping on both wings and I that I am also looking to optimiseflicks (particularly BH) for open ups. I now fully understand Carl’s advice on whyD09C would not be advisable, being too hard. I had been advised by a UKsupplier that the FX-S would be good for banana flicks which is why I wouldprefer to retain the current Aruna setup. However I note Carl that you use FX-Pon your BH which is slightly softer so perhaps this would be better for me. Itwas also recommended that I would be advised to go to the thicker 2.1/2.2mmrubber thickness for the purpose of aiding flicks.
My original thoughts were before making contact were to go for Tenergy05 on the FH and 05FX on the BH, but changed my mind after reading about 09C.As I said I have now discounted 09C.
If you are not already, before you get thoroughly fed up with me, Iwould appreciate your final advice on blade and rubbers without wishing to putyou under any pressure but I trust your opinion based on your knowledge of thesubject. You have been extremely helpful in increasing my understanding and Ihave been touched by the time that you have spent corresponding with me. I justwant to find the best setup using your advice that I can stick with and withoutthinking that there may be something better.
If only we lived closer as I would like to buy you guys a big drink:after lockdown is lifted of course!

Best regards
 
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Hi, Basmundo. How do you find you play with the Rhyzer 43? I haven't played with it, but I have played opponents who use it and generate a high level of spin. I'm not trying to throw another variable into your mix, but I wonder if it might be a good rubber to try on your Aruna blade.
Anyhow, I'm learning from this discussion; thank you for starting it. And I wish you the best of luck in finding a setup that meets your needs and adds to your level of enjoyment when you play.

S
 
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A lot of controversy here... XD Anyway,
FX-P is awesome close to the table, good control, good spin, just lacks the higher speed-gear of the other high end rubbers, but you don't need that for your game so it's perfect.
Actually, Emmanuel Lebesson a pro french player, used it on both sides before, now on bh only. And he uses an all wood blade that is even slower than innerforce alc... around innerforce zlf speed
That last point was actually hillarious btw. ALmost ANYONE would back of the table to lob... but not Lebesson. XD

Anyway, among those blades, I'd say please forget about fang bo carbon and Long 5, they're fasssst. and close to the table you don't want it to be that fast... If I were you, I'd go with the Innerforce Layer ALC. (with FX-P both sides) As Zlf might be slower than what you bargained for.
 
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Yeah. If cost is not really an issue, the IFL ALC is your best bet.

For rubbers you could get ELP for FH and FXP for BH. But I would get T05 for FH and T05fx for BH if I was not thinking about price.

And everyone being on lockdown would make it hard to make footage of yourself playing when nobody can play....;)
 
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I used 300-400 blades last 3years.
So Im not good 'in' rubbers because I know maybe 200-250 rubbers.
I really love voice of Zhang Jike about equipment or simply : blade choice.
He said that He use his Old Viscaria because he loves their short handle and he trust the way how blade feels in his small hands in crucial moments and he added that He won his titles with Viscaria so he has own sentiments because he knows that he can trust ... ok everybody has own opinion Im fine with that and
more words would be necessary but he added, you wont be satisfied as you want to be with your equipment and you always try find better equipment and I understand why pros choose equipment and what is the main reason why players sticks to their own choices of blades
 
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Handle.
The biggest EJ .
Samsonov has grip tape so he doesn't care about handle feeling.
So you can find a lot of blades but handle is the most important.
Sometimes you can play better with blade because your wrist has more moves and you can add extra spin or extra movement to the ball.
Sometimes you can play with cheap slow hard blade with ST handle and don't play well with expensive FL Goddess butterfly revoldia or something.
I think good idea could be something like application with all handle dimensions and handle scan.
You have small hands but you are 6,6 foot soldier and you like koto?! you loves blocking
so application choose you equipment from Oh sang. and etc
 
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Hi, Basmundo. How do you find you play with the Rhyzer 43? I haven't played with it, but I have played opponents who use it and generate a high level of spin. I'm not trying to throw another variable into your mix, but I wonder if it might be a good rubber to try on your Aruna blade.
Anyhow, I'm learning from this discussion; thank you for starting it. And I wish you the best of luck in finding a setup that meets your needs and adds to your level of enjoyment when you play.

S
Hello S
Thank you for your contribution. I found the Rhyzer 43 to be very good for spin but I found it lacking in lift to achieve backhand banana flicks for me. However this might well have been due to my technique plus, as advised in the thread above, the fact that I was using it on the TSP Balsa 6.5mm OFF blade which appears to have been far from ideal.
I suggest that you address the same question to both Carl and Konrad who are featured on this post. Between them they seem to have an encyclopaedic knowledge on this subject. Konrad has apparently tried in the region of 250 rubbers.
Good luck
B
 
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Yeah. If cost is not really an issue, the IFL ALC is your best bet.

For rubbers you could get ELP for FH and FXP for BH. But I would get T05 for FH and T05fx for BH if I was not thinking about price.

And everyone being on lockdown would make it hard to make footage of yourself playing when nobody can play....;)
Thank you Carl
I apologise if I have caused you additional correspondence while trying to find the best low cost option and I trust that the lifting of that constraint has allowed you to recommend what you feel is the optimum setup for me based on the details that I have described to you about me and my game.
Before I place the order, what are your recommendation regarding sponge thickness as mentioned in my last post: 1.9-2.0mm or 2.1-2.2mm to optimise spin and best aid BH banana flicks etc?
I obviously need to sort out fitting my own rubbers as you have suggested. I did this many years ago so it shouldn't be a problem. Do you think that I should consider trying the T05/T05FX rubbers on the Aruna blade in the future as a spare when I wear out the current rubbers on it?
Enough about me. I would be interested in you and your situation and why you use the OS Virtuoso+ blade with the Evolution rubbers and how that combination compares with your recommendation for me.
Thanks again for your time and patience.
 
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I used 300-400 blades last 3years.
So Im not good 'in' rubbers because I know maybe 200-250 rubbers.
I really love voice of Zhang Jike about equipment or simply : blade choice.
He said that He use his Old Viscaria because he loves their short handle and he trust the way how blade feels in his small hands in crucial moments and he added that He won his titles with Viscaria so he has own sentiments because he knows that he can trust ... ok everybody has own opinion Im fine with that and
more words would be necessary but he added, you wont be satisfied as you want to be with your equipment and you always try find better equipment and I understand why pros choose equipment and what is the main reason why players sticks to their own choices of blades
Hello Konrad
Firstly your English language is pretty good my friend. Thank you for going to the trouble of entering this conversation. I would have struggled conduct it in your language!
You are privileged, in TT terms, to have been able to try so many blades and rubbers. Is it because you are in the business of selling equipment.
I accept that you do not recommend Butterfly equipment, presumably due to its price, but do you agree with Carl's recommendation for me being the Innerforce Layer ALC with T05 for FH and T05FX for BH? I have qualified my request to concentrate on the ideal setup rather than the most economical? In agreement with your post above, I think that what you are saying is that it is important to have complete confidence in your setup to be able to concentrate fully on your game rather than have that doubt always in your mind. This is exactly what I am trying to achieve.
Can you also give me your thoughts on sponge thickness as detailed in my last post to both you and Carl.

Thanks again for your help
 
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Thank you Carl
I apologise if I have caused you additional correspondence while trying to find the best low cost option and I trust that the lifting of that constraint has allowed you to recommend what you feel is the optimum setup for me based on the details that I have described to you about me and my game.
Before I place the order, what are your recommendation regarding sponge thickness as mentioned in my last post: 1.9-2.0mm or 2.1-2.2mm to optimise spin and best aid BH banana flicks etc?
I obviously need to sort out fitting my own rubbers as you have suggested. I did this many years ago so it shouldn't be a problem. Do you think that I should consider trying the T05/T05FX rubbers on the Aruna blade in the future as a spare when I wear out the current rubbers on it?
Enough about me. I would be interested in you and your situation and why you use the OS Virtuoso+ blade with the Evolution rubbers and how that combination compares with your recommendation for me.
Thanks again for your time and patience.

There is confusion on thickness of rubber for a lot of people. I consistently hear people say that thicker rubber is faster and harder to control.

On the faster part: thinner sponge can be shown to be faster on direct contact. There are videos that clearly show this to be the case. The sponge dampens contact. Less sponge causes a faster shot than more sponge. This is simple physics.

Thinner sponge is easier to control if you are making direct contact. But not if you are spinning the ball.

Thicker sponge is actually slightly slower. It is harder to control in direct contact because the rebound of the sponge makes how the ball comes out less predictable. But thicker sponge makes it so you can let the ball penetrate deeper into the sponge before it hits the wood. If you are making spin contact (tangential--which is sort of the opposite of direct contact) you will get more spin with the thicker sponge. And the rebound of the sponge and topsheet will not cause the ball projecting out to be less controllable because of the tangential contact and how the topsheet grabs.

Since on offensive topspin shots, you control the shot with the amount of spin, the thicker sponge makes it easier to control shots with heavy spin because it makes it easier to create that spin. This also makes it so, on those kinds of heavy spin shots--which in table tennis are called loops--you can swing with more force and not bottom out and still spin the ball.

So, you might get a faster shot when spinning the ball with a thicker sponge. But that is not because the thicker sponge makes the rubber faster. It is because, provided your contact is tangential (brush contact) you can put more power into the shot.

So, for someone who is mostly looping or making spin contact on all shots, it is actually easier to control a shot with a thicker sponge.

Therefore, if you are sort of hearing a harsh, sharp, high pitched sound on contact, from the wood, then thinner rubbers will be easier for you to use in general. If you are hearing a more muted, soft sound, [or, very high level players with powerful impact hear a popping sound like a cork that is not as high pitched as the sound from the wood], then you will be better off with max thickness.

The corking sound, is actually the sound of the rebound of the topsheet, almost like the sound made when you crack a whip or pop a cork out of a champagne bottle. The sound is actually caused by how fast the rubber moves, after it has been stretched and distorted by the ball contact when the rubber rebounds to its original shape. Likely, you are not getting this sound as it takes high level technique and considerable force on impact to stretch the topsheet that far sideways to get the pop. So if you hear "crack", probably you are hitting the wood. You can still spin if you hit the wood. But not nearly as much. And if you hit the wood and spin, I would call that a drive loop rather than a loop.

One more detail on this, if you really want to make over the table BH loops, you need to not hit the wood for the shot to be consistent.

So, based on what you want, I would get the max. Even if what you are doing and what you want to be doing are not yet the same.

A decently high level player can spin the ball with either thick or thinner. But thicker helps you learn NOT TO contact the wood when you want that spin. So, that may also have to do with why you are having trouble with openings. That and the thick balsa blade would be a bad combination for learning over the table loops. (BH flips are over the table loops--FH flips can be loop or direct contact).

Why Tenergy, for what you are saying you want, nothing is really as good.

Why do I use MXP and FXP. They are good enough and I can get 4 sheets (2 MXP and 2 FXP) for the price of 2 Tenergy. And MXP/FXP are good enough; slightly faster, slightly less spin. I would take the extra spin. But I would rather the extra $$$. :)

Also, what makes Tenergy unique, there are other rubbers that get as much spin. There are other rubbers that get as much speed. No rubber has a sponge anywhere near as good as the Tenergy sponge. And it helps you feel the ball better than any ESPN sponge. So, if price were not a consideration, I would get Tenergy. I actually may get Tenergy next time I buy because I am starting to need new rubbers.

Why the OSP Virtuoso Plus? I have tried a lot of blades. There was a point where I was using a Timo Boll ZLF. Now, that blade was really great. I still have it. I got it from a friend who was sponsored by Butterfly. But one day I tried a friends blade (it is always good to take a few hits with someone else's setup to see how it feels) and he had an all wood blade and I realized how much I missed that all wood feeling.

I tried a bunch of different things. But the blade I am using now, I just never wanted to put it down or try anything else after. It may not be good for everyone. But it is perfect for me. So.....that is why I use the V+.
 
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I have the innerforce ALC tenergy 05 on th and goldarc 8 bh and i must say it's a treat to play with it.
 
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