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    #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Chewy
    Coming out almost the same periods, I hope the R48 is not a variation of the V11.
    Well you can never be sure, can you?

    Some companies clearly indicate the thin topsheet technology with terms like ultramax or max+, while others may just have their variations out not talking much about it.

    For what I know though, andro has the Energy Cell sponge pretty much exclusively, and that is what makes R48 and R53 both play softer than ypou´d expect and more spinny than other rubbers. It may sound difficult to believe, but R48 feels softer AND more powerful/spinny than R47.

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    #42
    Don't worry Airoc. I believe you! I'm always open to try new stuff. And enjoy it too.

    I never really got used to the thin topsheet + ultramax combination. But am willing to give the R48 a go due to the many positive reviews.

    Oh! I forgot, the V11 is not a thin topsheet/ultramax sponge combination. Highly accurate rubber though.

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    #43
    Any suggestions which colour to choose? E.g. is red more durable, does black have more spin??

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    #44
    I obtained a near-new R48, max, black a while ago.

    Having played R53 (2.0, black) for quite a while I expected the R48 to be in the same ballpark.

    Played with it for a few weeks now. I think max is not for me.

    To me, R53 felt softer in touch play, and also a bit when serving. In counters and counterloops both are a beast, but I could bend the ball better near the table end with R53. Spin level in my perception also higher.

    An R48 in 2.0 would be interesting to try. As far as colours go, a teammate had R53 on both wings and I could not tell the red and the black apart without looking.

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    #45
    Quote Originally Posted by yoass
    I could not tell the red and the black apart without looking.
    This should be the norm with all modern rubbers, but the myths persist ...

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    #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Airoc
    This should be the norm with all modern rubbers, but the myths persist ...
    That is 100% true, at least in the case of Butterfly and ESN.
    I don't know about Chinese rubbers because I never played those.

    People don't seem to get that 2 of the same rubbers can have variances in hardness.
    I had 2 Tenergy 05 once and 1 was almost 72 Grams and the other was 69 Grams and that was very noticeable.

    I think most people just mix up some hardness variances and attribute this to colors.
    I'm fairly sure that if you let people do a blind test between a black and red rubber nobody could tell the difference.

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    #47
    Quote Originally Posted by P1ngP0ng3r
    Anyone able to compare R48 and Rakza Z?

    I now have R48 2.0 mm mounted on a TB ALC and Rakza 7 2.0mm mounted on a TBS. The blades are similar. I am not a calibrated machine but my impressions are that the R48 is a little faster but no spinnier than the Rakza 7. I prefer the Rakza 7 because I think the spin to speed ratio is a little higher than that of the R48. I can achieve the same shots with both rubbers but I must close the paddle just a tiny little bit more with the R48 to do it.
    There is nothing the R48 can do that the Rakza 7 can't and vice versa, but it will take a slightly different stroke.

    I will stick with Rakza 7.

    Do any of the pros use R53? R53 seems to be a marketing gimmick. You need to realize that harder rubbers will have a shorter "dwell" time or contact time not that it makes that much difference.

    BTW, do you know that thicker rubbers will be softer than the thinner rubbers if the sponges are made of the same material? If you really want a hard rubber, buy R53 1.8mm. If the sponge is that hard it won't "bottom out".

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    Last edited by brokenball; 03-04-2021 at 08:05 AM.

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    #48
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I now have R48 2.0 mm mounted on a TB ALC and Rakza 7 2.0mm mounted on a TBS. The blades are similar. I am not a calibrated machine but my impressions are that the R48 is a little faster but no spinnier than the Rakza 7. I prefer the Rakza 7 because I think the spin to speed ratio is a little higher than that of the R48. I can achieve the same shots with both rubbers but I must close the paddle just a tiny little bit more with the R48 to do it.
    There is nothing the R48 can do that the Rakza 7 can't and vice versa, but it will take a slightly different stroke.

    I will stick with Rakza 7.

    Do any of the pros use R53? R53 seems to be a marketing gimmick. You need to realize that harder rubbers will have a shorter "dwell" time or contact time not that it makes that much difference.

    BTW, do you know that thicker rubbers will be softer than the thinner rubbers if the sponges are made of the same material? If you really want a hard rubber, buy R53 1.8mm. If the sponge is that hard it won't "bottom out".
    Hi brokenball,

    I'm guessing Rakza 7 is also more controllable and provides more safety than R48? I haven't tried R48, but that is what I like about about R7, whereas I found other Rasanters to be quite bouncy.

    Seems like at least several Andro-sponsored players use R53 on their FH, including Simon Gauzy. For sure harder rubbers provide less dwell time, but these guys have perfect touch, so they don't really need it like we do.

    Interesting to hear you say that for the same rubber, the thicker sponge will feel softer than the thinner one, that's my impression too. I've read somewhere else before that if you take the medium sponge hardness (1.9-2.0mm) as the base, then going to the max sponge (2.1-2.1mm), a 10% increase in sponge, it results in 10% more speed and spin capacity and 10% less in control. What are your thoughts on this?

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    #49
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas.pong
    Hi brokenball,

    I'm guessing Rakza 7 is also more controllable and provides more safety than R48? I haven't tried R48, but that is what I like about about R7, whereas I found other Rasanters to be quite bouncy.
    They are both controllable. I just like the spin to speed ratio better on the Rakza 7 a little better since the R48 is just a little faster, the spin to speed ratio is lower, what you guys call throw. This can be adjusted for. If there was no Rakza 7 I could be happy playing with R48 but as I have a choice I will stick to Rakza 7.

    Seems like at least several Andro-sponsored players use R53 on their FH, including Simon Gauzy. For sure harder rubbers provide less dwell time, but these guys have perfect touch, so they don't really need it like we do.
    What is important is the impulse the paddle delivers to the ball. That determines the trajectory. The impulse is the integral of force over time. In the case of R52 the time may be shorter but it can be compensated for by more force during that time. The resulting impulse can be the same a a lower force over a longer time.

    Interesting to hear you say that for the same rubber, the thicker sponge will feel softer than the thinner one, that's my impression too. I've read somewhere else before that if you take the medium sponge hardness (1.9-2.0mm) as the base, then going to the max sponge (2.1-2.1mm), a 10% increase in sponge, it results in 10% more speed and spin capacity and 10% less in control. What are your thoughts on this?
    Springs in series make the spring constant lower ( softer ). Springs in parallel make the spring constant higher.
    Example say a 1mm sponge compresses 0.1mm for 1N of force. A 2mm sponge will compress 0.2mm with the same force.
    The 2mm sponge can be thought of as 2- 1mm sponges in series. Each 1mm sponge will compress 0.1mm.

    Also, each 1mm of sponge will absorb energy and not return all of it to the ball. Thicker sponges are not going to be as fast for the same stroke. This is a mechanical/physics thing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series...rallel_springs

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    #50
    Seems like at least several Andro-sponsored players use R53 on their FH, including Simon Gauzy.
    I can also confirm Sabine Winter. With R48 on her backhand.

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    Last edited by Airoc; 03-04-2021 at 05:10 PM.

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    #51
    I would tend to agree with BB on this one. I feel Razka 7 is eaier to spin on several different shot situations. That would make it better spin to speed ratio, or more weighted towards spin.

    On a different impact, R48 will have outstanding spin with easier speed to make spin loaded power shots easy... but still, if the bat speed and impact are there, a loaded fast loop with Razka 7 still possible, but surely it is easier with R48 for that shot measurably.

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    #52
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib
    After 10+ years of using tacky rubber on FH, R53 is the first ESN rubber that makes me feel it is comparable to H3 boosted in all aspects.

    R48 can be another spin monster. But I have a feeling that R48 pairs well with a hard blade.

    Hello, can R53 pair well with W968? i'm using Battle on FH but i feel speed and spin is not really good.


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    #53
    Quote Originally Posted by proximang

    Hello, can R53 pair well with W968? i'm using Battle on FH but i feel speed and spin is not really good.

    No reason why not, but it's going to be very fast and a lot less controllable than Battle or H3

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    #54
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas.pong
    No reason why not, but it's going to be very fast and a lot less controllable than Battle or H3
    R53 - Way less controllable, unless you’re a very strong player!!!

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    #55
    IF R53 is so good then why not make a R60?

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    #56
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    IF R53 is so good then why not make a R60?
    Because 53 degree hardness is more than most players can cope with anyway?
    But I am curious as to when/if there will be a sticky topsheet on a tensor sponge to cater for the Hybrid trend, and these often have even harder sponges.
    So, whatever is hiding behind Rasanter C55 on the LARC, it might be VERY interesting.

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    #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Airoc
    Because 53 degree hardness is more than most players can cope with anyway?
    Yes, but have you thought about why?
    I don't think R53 is right for the pros.
    Harder rubbers will prevent the ball from penetrating into the rubber. This means there will be less surface contact between the ball and rubber for the same impact speed. This means there will be less friction. I see this as a problem for doing what I call over the table wrist loops. The harder rubbers will not have as much grip.
    The second reason is if the rubber or sponge do not stretch it will not absorb energy that is later returned in the form of extra spin or speed. There will be less of a trampoline effect. Could you imagine trying to jump on a hard trampoline?
    I can see where harder rubbers are good for flatting but not much else.

    But I am curious as to when/if there will be a sticky topsheet on a tensor sponge to cater for the Hybrid trend, and these often have even harder sponges.
    So, whatever is hiding behind Rasanter C55 on the LARC, it might be VERY interesting.
    I can't see where a rubber like R53 makes sense unless it had a tacky top sheet like the Chinese rubbers.
    We have decades of experience now with people trying different rubbers. I have the same opinion as Goldilocks. There is too soft, too hard and just right.

    Although I prefer Rakza 7 over R48 I think R48 is on the harder side of just right.

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    #58
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I don't think R53 is right for the pros.
    Many pros disagree, otherwise they´d pick R50, R48, R47 or the corresponding rubbers of their sponsors.
    There´s a difference between amateur philosophy and pro reality.

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    #59
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Yes, but have you thought about why?
    I don't think R53 is right for the pros.
    Harder rubbers will prevent the ball from penetrating into the rubber. This means there will be less surface contact between the ball and rubber for the same impact speed. This means there will be less friction. I see this as a problem for doing what I call over the table wrist loops. The harder rubbers will not have as much grip.
    The second reason is if the rubber or sponge do not stretch it will not absorb energy that is later returned in the form of extra spin or speed. There will be less of a trampoline effect. Could you imagine trying to jump on a hard trampoline?
    I can see where harder rubbers are good for flatting but not much else.
    The pros have superior technique and physical abilities especially tailored to the sport, plus all the training. For them, even with a hard tension rubber, the ball will penetrate into it, they will get the surface contact, friction and trampoline effect they want.
    Last edited by thomas.pong; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:46 AM.

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    #60
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I can't see where a rubber like R53 makes sense unless it had a tacky top sheet like the Chinese rubbers.
    We have decades of experience now with people trying different rubbers. I have the same opinion as Goldilocks. There is too soft, too hard and just right.

    Although I prefer Rakza 7 over R48 I think R48 is on the harder side of just right.
    I agree that there's too soft, too hard and just right for me, but that "just right" is not the same for everybody and it can depend on what you pair it with and it can also evolve with your increasing level and physical training, and taste.

    For me, on the FH, if I'm using a tension rubber, it would be a 45-47.5 degree sponge on most blades (even a dynamic 43 degree rubber with hard topsheet like T05 FX but only on blades like Viscaria), not a 45 deg rubber that's too dull, and not a 47.5 degree rubber that feels too hard. On BH, more or less the same, although my threshold is probably more 42.5-45 deg.

    So I'd never play with a tension rubber harder than 48 deg, at least right now. But a 53 deg Chinese tacky rubber, yes, because it's a whole different ball game.

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