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    1. Top | #21
      lasta is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zyu81 View Post
      In effective play? What does that mean? I've actually had multiple professional players tell me they feel there are significant differences both in feeling and output shot quality, and I feel the same way myself having done side by side tests. For one, there is less quality, speed and spin with MX-P in the majority of range of shots. Do you have similar experiences suggesting the opposite or are you just spouting off something you read on forums?
      No, my experience tells me that "all" players' ability to judge "quality, speed and spin" is biased and unreliable.

      Yes, I do agree with you that they feel different, and in this area everyone has there own preferences which becomes narrower as they try more stuff. My experience in this area tells me that the slight difference in feel makes no difference in shot quality. As soon as you take your mind off "XXX-replacement" to "how to do Z with X", most modern rubbers are more similar than different.

    2. Top | #22
      SFF_lib is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by scrubplayer View Post
      That's depending on level. Even without boost, h3 will bubble within a month. Even if I don't hit hard, if i train with good players where they hit hard and i block it will get bubbled.
      My level is probably not that high. So far only 1 H3 bubbled. I have been using H3 for at least 11 years.

    3. Top | #23
      Marko is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by kogeh View Post
      This is wrong. Bisačka 12 is the adress of the Butterfly store in Zagreb.
      Prodaju li online? Nisam blizu Zagreba, a online trgovine u Hrvatskoj su mi samo poznate rama.hr, pingpong.hr i yasaka.hr. Krivo sam se izrazio, trebao sam napisati online trgovine. Hvala na ispravku

    4. Top | #24
      kogeh is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marko View Post
      Prodaju li online? Nisam blizu Zagreba, a online trgovine u Hrvatskoj su mi samo poznate rama.hr, pingpong.hr i yasaka.hr. Krivo sam se izrazio, trebao sam napisati online trgovine. Hvala na ispravku
      To neznam kontaktiraj ih i pitaj al vjerojatno ti salju postom za cijenu postarine.

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    6. Top | #25
      zyu81 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by lasta View Post
      No, my experience tells me that "all" players' ability to judge "quality, speed and spin" is biased and unreliable.

      Yes, I do agree with you that they feel different, and in this area everyone has there own preferences which becomes narrower as they try more stuff. My experience in this area tells me that the slight difference in feel makes no difference in shot quality. As soon as you take your mind off "XXX-replacement" to "how to do Z with X", most modern rubbers are more similar than different.

      Your experience tells you that not even advanced/professional coaches and players are able to judge differences even when doing side by side tests? Please expand on that.

      Your last sentence "As soon as you take your mind off "XXX-replacement" to "how to do Z with X", most modern rubbers are more similar than different." is good advice when it is told to beginner or intermediate level players who are obsessing over equipment differences to compensate for their lack of refined technique or skills. It is not as applicable when you are talking to advanced players with refined techniques in which equipment differences start to become apparent. There is a reason why pros overwhelmingly choose between Hurricane/Tenergy/Dignics when sponsorship is not involved.
      Last edited by zyu81; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:21 PM.

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    8. Top | #26
      Brs is offline
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      So are you a pro, or just somebody spouting off on forums?

    9. Top | #27
      zyu81 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Brs View Post
      So are you a pro, or just somebody spouting off on forums?
      No, but I am at a level where I can note differences in performance between rubbers without attributing it to improper technique. Many posters on forums are not, which is why the advice is often "it doesn't matter".

      I have had several pro coaches and players use both MX-P (and other ESN rubbers) and Tenergy/Dignics, including some side by side tests. They noted definite differences. Not to say MX-P is an unusable rubber in any way, it's good while boosted, and very serviceable. But it does lack spin and thus shot quality to some degree compared to Tenergy and Dignics, and many might argue that MX-Ps relative lack of stability and ease of usage compared to T/D also make it an inferior rubber. That was the reason for my original post.

    10. Top | #28
      zyu81 is offline
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      Do Marcos Freitas and Joao Monteiro count as experienced players? They both used Tenergy for many years while being sponsored by TIBHAR despite TIBHAR's insistence on them using MX-P and eventually switched their contracts over to Butterfly due to the disagreement. I might infer from this that they did indeed think the "subtle differences" meant something in "effective play". There are countless other examples of ESN sponsored players secretly using Tenergy. Are there any examples of Butterfly sponsored pros secretly using ESN rubbers?

      Again, this may not matter for a lot of us here. Myself included perhaps. But it may to some. It's just not accurate for people to say that all equipment is created equal for everyone, just because, for them, they cannot tell a difference.

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    12. Top | #29
      jedimasterplk is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zyu81 View Post
      No, but I am at a level where I can note differences in performance between rubbers without attributing it to improper technique. Many posters on forums are not, which is why the advice is often "it doesn't matter".

      I have had several pro coaches and players use both MX-P (and other ESN rubbers) and Tenergy/Dignics, including some side by side tests. They noted definite differences. Not to say MX-P is an unusable rubber in any way, it's good while boosted, and very serviceable. But it does lack spin and thus shot quality to some degree compared to Tenergy and Dignics, and many might argue that MX-Ps relative lack of stability and ease of usage compared to T/D also make it an inferior rubber. That was the reason for my original post.
      Darko Jorgic, Paul Drinkhall, Samsonov, Lebesson and all the Tibhar sponsored pro's seem to do ok with Tibhar.
      There is no point arguing that Tenergy feel different and better - to an extent. I think what others are saying is that other rubbers are NOT that much worse, certainly at the amateur levels, and even at pro levels. Pitch recently left butterfly, and had some massive wins (XX) using victas.
      And finally, regarding Tibhar is only good boosted to death, as you call it. The same applies to Tenergy. Do you know of any pro player playing unboosted tenergy?

    13. Top | #30
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by lasta View Post
      Any experienced player will know the subtle differences between MXP and Tenergy don't mean sh!t in effective play.
      Yes, which is why Freitas and Apolonia left Tibhar for Butterfly when they were required by Tibhar to use MX-P instead of Tenergy 05.
      Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

    14. Top | #31
      zyu81 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zyu81 View Post
      Do Marcos Freitas and Joao Monteiro count as experienced players? They both used Tenergy for many years while being sponsored by TIBHAR despite TIBHAR's insistence on them using MX-P and eventually switched their contracts over to Butterfly due to the disagreement. I might infer from this that they did indeed think the "subtle differences" meant something in "effective play". There are countless other examples of ESN sponsored players secretly using Tenergy. Are there any examples of Butterfly sponsored pros secretly using ESN rubbers?

      Again, this may not matter for a lot of us here. Myself included perhaps. But it may to some. It's just not accurate for people to say that all equipment is created equal for everyone, just because, for them, they cannot tell a difference.
      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      Yes, which is why Freitas and Apolonia left Tibhar for Butterfly when they were required by Tibhar to use MX-P instead of Tenergy 05.

      Monteiro as well I believe. Countless examples still, but the Portuguese were the most prominent because Tibhar was unlike other ESN companies for a while in that others turned a blind eye to their pros using Tenergy, and were satisfied if just the blade/blade handle fulfilled sponsorship requirements.

    15. Top | #32
      Brs is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zyu81 View Post
      Again, this may not matter for a lot of us here. Myself included perhaps. But it may to some. It's just not accurate for people to say that all equipment is created equal for everyone, just because, for them, they cannot tell a difference.
      You are making a statement that is imo just as inaccurate by claiming a tiny set of rubbers is best for every player over a relatively low level. To take a pro example, Mima Ito uses fastarc g-1. Of course she is sponsored by Nittaku, but I am quite sure Bty would be delighted to sponsor her if she wanted a change. Would she play better with Dignics?

      There is massively more style variation below the 2400 usatt level than among WR pros. To say everyone over usatt 1700 would play better with H3 or tenergy/dignics is ridiculous.

      This doesn't change the fact that pros overwhelmingly choose those rubbers. But the vast majority of amateurs who think they play enough like the pros to get the same advantages from their equipment are dreaming.

    16. Top | #33
      Creek is online now
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      I would suggest the following things:

      1. rubbers differ in speed, spin, catapult, responsiveness and height of arc
      2. nobody in the world (not even ma long) can make the most out of a rubber, because you can do always better!
      3. let‘s stop this stupid discussion and come back to dignics09C, which is a wonderful and really different rubber compared to everything I knew before

      by the way I got 1850 TTR, which means ~2200 usatt
      Last edited by Creek; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:26 PM.

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    18. Top | #34
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Creek View Post
      I would suggest the following things:

      1. rubbers differ in speed, spin, catapult, responsiveness and height of arc
      2. nobody in the world (not even ma long) can make the most out of a rubber, because you can do always better!
      3. let‘s stop this stupid discussion and come back to dignics09C, which is a wonderful and really different rubber compared to everything I knew before

      by the way I got 1850 TTR, which means ~2200 usatt
      Creek, that is a level 95% do not make in USA, LA and Bay Area of California are calling on you to come over and run the hustle.... or you could simply fly Frankfurt to NYC for the next Goon Squad Meetup.

      Edmund Suen will be waiting along with Next Level, Ping Pong Holic, and any other TT terrorists Carl can recruit for a Goon Squad meetup at a large TT club for documentation of TT HISTORY of EPIC PROPORTION. Oh, and sum fat and O50 loudmouth punk might show up wearing a uniform, be ready to correct that dude on the wear of uniform and how to run a chicken and beer round robin.
      Last edited by Der_Echte; 4 Weeks Ago at 05:26 AM.
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    19. Top | #35
      zeio is offline
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      Last edited by zeio; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:01 PM.
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    21. Top | #36
      zyu81 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      The closest one I could come up with that is sponsored by Butterfly but disses Tenergy/Dignics is Shibaev.

      It's too bad Shibaev could never get his head on straight.

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    23. Top | #37
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zyu81 View Post
      It's too bad Shibaev could never get his head on straight.
      He had many injuries as well, let's not remain entirely focused on the mental issues.

    24. Top | #38
      NextLevel is offline
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      I use Dignics 09C and I like it a lot - use it in 1.9mm to take care of the weight.

    25. Top | #39
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      It was at 38:18 for me. I can't believe they kept that clip in but it was gold. Goes to show not all the pros drink the Butterfly koolaid even if they are sponsored. Had to switch the VPN to a german server to see the clip though.
      Last edited by WingTT; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:19 PM.

    26. Top | #40
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      haha I remember the youtube clip of that got taken down...perhaps from the Fury of Butterfly.

      Funny, Shibaev did not complain when beating Liam Pitchford (4-2) ranked ~12 in the world (and then Ma Te 4-0) with Dignics.

      I mean Hugo at that time was ranked ~7. Granted he was ripped a new b-hole in that match but I don't think you can blame the rubber. Best thing to do there is fake a hamstring pull

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