Europeans Actually More Talented in Table Tennis

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Good Results Not Necessarily Mean Good Talent; Europeans Actually More Talented in Table Tennis
http://sports.sina.com.cn May 01, 2005 11:21 Yangtze Evening Post

  Without a doubt, China is widely recognized as the table tennis empire, and Chinese table tennis is strong enough to look down on the rest. However, is it true that Chinese are born to play table tennis or is it our system that plays a decisive role, that compared with foreign players, are our athletes more athletic? The St. Bride Vase has given us the answer. From the transfer of the St. Bride Vase, we know that in the most important event in Europe - men's singles, Chinese players have in fact no advantage. The fact that they cannot achieve absolute monopoly of the St. Bride Vase even under the state program only shows that Chinese do not seem to have any special talent for table tennis.

  Good results = great talent?

  In terms of results, Chinese table tennis is absolutely second to none, even in their weakest men's singles event. But in terms of men's singles, despite our results being the best, the best athlete recognized around the world is Waldner of Sweden, and even this cannot be denied by Cai Zhenhua and Liu Guoliang. Cai Zhenhua cannot stop praising Lao Wa: "He is too talented. Lao Wa has a very clear mind on the court. His understanding of each opponent's skills and tactics, I think in a sense is even clearer than the Chinese. Tactical ideas devised in advance after careful analysis may work well in the first 2 games, but as the game progresses, he will adapt immediately and make adjustments in certain segments, more aggressive, more stable, faster, slower or a different placement. He can adapt on the spot, and is the best at this of all the opponents in the world, and no Chinese players have achieved it. For example, for the average players, "lookers-on see most of the game", but him? You will feel that his vision is always very objective and very "bystander". He can grasp the opponent's weakness keenly and can defeat the opponent in the best way. That is the most terrifying point about him, and not entirely on techniques. The wisdom, the adaptability, and the grasp of the situation of Lao Wa on the court cannot be matched by Chinese players, Liu Guoliang and Kong Linghui included."

  European players are more talented?

  It is not the Europeans that put forward this view, but Wang Dayong, a senior coach in China. The Chinese coach who has been coaching in Europe for many years once lamented: "Those table tennis players who can make a name for themselves in Europe are all geniuses. Reaching that kind of height in that environment only shows that they are really talented." According to Wang Dayong, the European table tennis environment simply cannot be compared with that in China. Some athletes still have to earn a living while playing. The state doesn’t pay attention to it and doesn’t support it. The cost of going abroad to play matches must be solved by themselves. It's exactly on such a barren land that these top athletes as Lao Wa, Schlager, Samsonov and Saive were born. It seems that the European talents for table tennis are truly not bad.

  Coincidentally, yesterday, after the Chinese media conference with STIGA global sponsored players, the reporters had a long talk with their business marketing director. The director told reporters embarrassingly that as a Swedish sporting goods company, their investment in Sweden is far less than in China, and he is very envious of China's table tennis environment. He said, "Chinese athletes are so fortunate, where the country attaches such great importance to it, where so many people play, and new players crop up constantly. In Sweden, it's always those few playing, and the country does not care." Still, he is also proud, despite having a small table tennis population in Sweden, they have a group of world-class players as Lao Wa and Persson.

http://sports.sina.com.cn/s/2005-05-01/1121555570s.shtml
成绩好不代表资质就高 欧洲人其实更有乒乓天赋
http://sports.sina.com.cn 2005年05月01日11:21 扬子晚报

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瓦尔德内尔

  毫无疑问,中国是举世公认的乒乓王国,中国乒乓的实力足以藐视群雄。可是,究竟是中国人天生就善于打乒乓还是我们的体制在起到决定性的作用,和外国选手相比,我们的运动员是不是更有运动天赋?圣·勃莱德杯给了我们答案,从圣·勃莱德杯的归属变更我们可以知道,在欧洲最重视的男单项目中,中国选手其实没有什么优势,在举国体制下都无法实现对圣·勃莱德杯的绝对垄断,也只能说明中国人似乎并没有什么特别的乒乓天赋。

  成绩好=天赋高?

  论成绩,中国乒乓绝对首屈一指,即使是最弱的男单项目。可是就拿男单来说,虽然我们的成绩最好,但世界公认的最佳运动员却是瑞典的瓦尔德内尔,这一点连蔡振华、刘国梁都无法否认。蔡振华说到老瓦连连赞叹:“他太有天赋了。老瓦在场上的头脑非常清醒,他对每一个对手技战术的了解,我认为在某种意义上比中国人还清楚。我们事先通过仔细研究确定的战术思路,在开始的前一两局里也许会很奏效,但随着比赛的进行,他马上就会有变化,在某一个环节上作出调节,凶一点、稳一点、快一点、慢一点或是落点变一变。他在临场还可以进行变化,世界上所有对手中他这点是最好的,中国选手也没人达到。打个比方,一般人打球的时候‘旁观者清,当局者迷’,而他呢?你会感到他的眼光始终非常客观、非常‘旁观’,他能够敏锐地抓住对手的弱点,能够以最佳的方式来击败对手,这是他最可怕的地方,而并不是完全靠技术。老瓦在场上的这种智慧、这种应变的能力、这种对局势的把握,中国选手,包括刘国梁、孔令辉,都比不上。”

  欧洲选手更有天赋?

  提出这种观点的不是欧洲人,而是中国的一位老教练王大勇。这位在欧洲执教多年的中国教练曾经这样感叹:“欧洲那些能够打出来的乒乓球运动员,个个都是天才。在那种环境中能够达到那样的高度,只能说明他们确实很有天赋。”据王大勇介绍,欧洲乒乓球的环境根本没法同国内相比,有的运动员一边打球一边还要谋生,国家不重视也不支持,出国打比赛的费用都要自己解决。在如此贫瘠的土壤中居然孕育了老瓦、施拉格、萨姆索诺夫、塞弗这一批顶尖的运动员,看来欧洲人的乒乓天赋还真不差。

  无独有偶,昨天,在瑞典STIGA公司全球签约选手中国媒体见面会后,记者和他们的业务营销总监交谈了很久。这位老总很尴尬地告诉记者,作为一家瑞典体育用品公司,他们在瑞典的投入远远不如在中国,他十分羡慕中国的乒乓环境。他说:“你们中国的运动员真幸福,国家那么重视,打球的人那么多,小队员源源不断地成长。而在瑞典,打乒乓的永远都是那么几号人,国家也不关心。”不过他也挺自豪,因为瑞典虽然打乒乓的人很少,却出了老瓦、佩尔森这样一批世界好手。
 
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The story of Wang Dayong. I miss the days of "overseas legions".

Oh, thank you very much for this video.

For me, Mr. Wang came 10 years too late ... or I was born 10 years too early that is also possible. [emoji16]
At the time I was also at my top but miles away from Jean-Mi who was just 10 years younger than me. I started when I was 17.
I've been lucky enough to play Jean-Mi three times when he was 9 (only win) and 10 years old and was still trained by his father.

Greatest memories!

Btw, I’m not sure that Europe now has more talents, but I think we now have a much broader base.
It remains to be seen whether those players will all break through.


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I think it is both. Chinese people aren't more athletic, but apart from more and better training they also get more talented athletes. This is because in Europe the most talented athletes tend to play soccer and maybe secondarily handball or tennis and not table tennis.

Now for example table tennis in Germany isn't a small sport with like half a million players but the classic sports career in Germany is like this: at age 4-5 you start to play soccer in a club and play there for a couple years. The ones who are good stick with soccer while maybe at age 8 to 10 the ones who are not great at soccer and ride the bench are trying other sports like handball, tennis, basketball or table tennis to see if that is for them.

Now there are a few exceptions, some of them are pushed into another sport right away usually because the parents played the sport and sometimes talented athletes play soccer and another sports parallel and then pick the other sport at 11-12 (like Roger Federer and Boris Becker did) but in most cases the athletes that play other sports tend to be guys who dropped out from soccer because they hit a wall there. This means that on average those players tend to be less athletic than the good soccer players. With American players that is probably similar with football or baseball instead of soccer.

In China however more talented athletes tend to go into table tennis as they are not really good at soccer or tennis. Imagine Messi or Federer going into table tennis at age 6...
 
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I Think the bundesliga shows pretty good how far behind non Asian countries are.

Shang Kun is a washed up chinese who had a career high rank of 45 and is now maybe the 10th or 12th best chinese player and he plays the same level as boll, calderano, gauzy and other top non chinese and regularly beats them.

Non chinese (and to a smaller extend japanese) TT is really in a bad state although of course china is also stronger than ever.
 
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I Think the bundesliga shows pretty good how far behind non Asian countries are.

Shang Kun is a washed up chinese who had a career high rank of 45 and is now maybe the 10th or 12th best chinese player and he plays the same level as boll, calderano, gauzy and other top non chinese and regularly beats them.

Non chinese (and to a smaller extend japanese) TT is really in a bad state although of course china is also stronger than ever.

Not a great example to prove your point. When he was in China, Shang Kun was actually right there with all the top players who are now legends, however politics and other reasons made it so that he had to pursue a career overseas. He was one of the top players in the Chinese Super League and had good results in Chinese National Team internal matches. He is 29 and still actively training so I wouldn't call him washed up.
 
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I think it is both. Chinese people aren't more athletic, but apart from more and better training they also get more talented athletes. This is because in Europe the most talented athletes tend to play soccer and maybe secondarily handball or tennis and not table tennis.

Now for example table tennis in Germany isn't a small sport with like half a million players but the classic sports career in Germany is like this: at age 4-5 you start to play soccer in a club and play there for a couple years. The ones who are good stick with soccer while maybe at age 8 to 10 the ones who are not great at soccer and ride the bench are trying other sports like handball, tennis, basketball or table tennis to see if that is for them.

Now there are a few exceptions, some of them are pushed into another sport right away usually because the parents played the sport and sometimes talented athletes play soccer and another sports parallel and then pick the other sport at 11-12 (like Roger Federer and Boris Becker did) but in most cases the athletes that play other sports tend to be guys who dropped out from soccer because they hit a wall there. This means that on average those players tend to be less athletic than the good soccer players. With American players that is probably similar with football or baseball instead of soccer.

In China however more talented athletes tend to go into table tennis as they are not really good at soccer or tennis. Imagine Messi or Federer going into table tennis at age 6...

That's more or less the circumstances for Japan up until a few years ago. Things have progressively improved for girls since London 2012 and for boys since Rio 2016. OTOH, the top sports as Japanese-style baseball, basketball, football, and volleyball have been shrinking in numbers the past few years.

Stats for 2019
Member schools of the Nippon Junior High School Physical Culture Association, sports with over 6k for Boys
1. Japanese-style baseball, 8.3k
2. Basketball, 7k
3. Football, 6.7k
4. Table Tennis, 6.6k
5. Athletics, 6.5k

Member schools of the Nippon Junior High School Physical Culture Association, sports with over 5k for Girls
1. Volleyball, 7.8k
2. Basketball, 7.2k
3. Soft tennis, 6.8k
4. Athletics, 6.2k
5. Table tennis, 5.9k

Member students " " " " " " " " ", sports with over 150k for Boys
1. Football, 187k
2. Japanese-style baseball, 164k
3. Basketball, 160k
4. Table Tennis, 159k

Member students " " " " " " " " ", sports with over 100k for Girls
1. Soft tennis, 163k
2. Volleyball, 139k
3. Basketball, 129k
4. Table tennis, 102k
 
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European players are natively more creative and talented, but chinese techniques of training are far better and the fact that they use, from early ages, power from the ground with those apparently dead slowish and tacky rubbers, helps them a lot. Not to mention the blue players for the national team.

Just watch Cristian Pletea and Truls Moregard and you'll see that they are very talented

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talent means nothing. I learn that first hand. Mentality > everything in table tennis. The biggest skill gap is not the technique, but how to handle pressured situations. There's many match that xyz player ALMOST beat malong/fzd/xx that's not because malong/fzd/xx's talent, it's because of their mentality. The moment we take out the mentality advantage (ZJK for example). You will see chinese players bleeds just like any mortals. (ZJK/LGY loses quite a lot to international players)
 
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talent means nothing. I learn that first hand. Mentality > everything in table tennis. The biggest skill gap is not the technique, but how to handle pressured situations. There's many match that xyz player ALMOST beat malong/fzd/xx that's not because malong/fzd/xx's talent, it's because of their mentality. The moment we take out the mentality advantage (ZJK for example). You will see chinese players bleeds just like any mortals. (ZJK/LGY loses quite a lot to international players)

You're comparing the 0.00001% of people who already had all the talent and all the training resources/proper situations in the world and then saying talent means nothing. Talent is absolutely necessary to reach the top of the sport, it's certainly not everything, but it definitely matters a good bit. The people you are mentioning had all the talent, got in with the right coaches at the right times, had the right opportunities, etc. You don't end up hearing about the untalented ones who also had the right opportunities but couldn't cut it, nor the ones who had the talent and never the opportunities so never got to blossom.

But if talent "means nothing", then every single kid who goes through the same training regimen (same starting age, same level of dedication, same coaches, same programs, same leagues) would end up the same level but that is far from the truth.
 
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Mathew Syed's book 'Bounce' explains the answer to your question and thoughts I believe.

Creativity is a result of necessity i.e. in this case the necessity is to develop a style of play different to Chinese players, as European players cannot beat them consistently playing the same style of game as them. Due to the sheer number of players and standard of their coaching system, China will always be dominant in the style of play that dominates the game currently. The challenge though is that they've studied the sport and innovated this style of play to be the most effective. In addition any innovations from players outside of China can be copied and replicated by Chinese players so it will always be an ongoing battle.

I don't think anyone has a certain amount of talent due to the country they're from. Any factors that could be considered to influence 'talent' are far more complex and diverse than that.
 
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Coincidentally, Miyazaki Yoshihito, director of development headquarter at JTTA, touched on the identification of talents for table tennis in early childhood in a series of tweets on Jun 27.

"Coaches, it is actually very simple to identify talented children. After teaching simple forehand and backhand on the first day, roughly 1 in 10 children can progressively play more than 50 shots in succession. Such a child has the potential to grow into national players."

"Among these children, those who cannot stop practicing can become national players, but if they do not like table tennis, there will be no room for growth regardless of talent."

"Among these children, those who love table tennis and like to practice will hate to lose and cry when they lose. These will grow into top national players."

"Among these children, those who love table tennis and like to practice will hate to lose and cry when they lose. The ones who can maintain top grades at schools will probably become world-class players."

"Among these children, those who love table tennis and like to practice will hate to lose and cry when they lose. The ones who can maintain top grades at schools, and if they can develop their own unique styles of play and serves, may become players who conquer the world."

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You're comparing the 0.00001% of people who already had all the talent and all the training resources/proper situations in the world and then saying talent means nothing. Talent is absolutely necessary to reach the top of the sport, it's certainly not everything, but it definitely matters a good bit. The people you are mentioning had all the talent, got in with the right coaches at the right times, had the right opportunities, etc. You don't end up hearing about the untalented ones who also had the right opportunities but couldn't cut it, nor the ones who had the talent and never the opportunities so never got to blossom.

But if talent "means nothing", then every single kid who goes through the same training regimen (same starting age, same level of dedication, same coaches, same programs, same leagues) would end up the same level but that is far from the truth.

Yeah talent and skill definitely comes first, mental stuff (and fitness) comes in play when skill level is very close.

I do think the number of talented players they have in china helps with mental toughness because they can afford to pressure the kids hard and weed out mentally week and still have enough talented guys while in Europe when there is a talented kid you kinda have to pamper him a little to not lose him because you dont have so many.

China can afford a lot of attrition and pushing kids hard and the kids who dont break down under that will be extra tough while a European coach who does that to his one talented kid might lose him and then is left with nothing so they might be extra nice to that kid causing him to get a little soft.

The Chinese coach however can be tough to the kids kinda like either it kills him or it makes him stronger because he has so many talents.

So Chinese players are probably better in all areas, skill, athleticism and mental strength because the training and the competition was so tough since they were kids while European talents might get pampered more and get more easy blowout wins as juniors due to less competition so they are not as used to tight matches also.
 
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Yeah talent and skill definitely comes first, mental stuff (and fitness) comes in play when skill level is very close.

I do think the number of talented players they have in china helps with mental toughness because they can afford to pressure the kids hard and weed out mentally week and still have enough talented guys while in Europe when there is a talented kid you kinda have to pamper him a little to not lose him because you dont have so many.

China can afford a lot of attrition and pushing kids hard and the kids who dont break down under that will be extra tough while a European coach who does that to his one talented kid might lose him and then is left with nothing so they might be extra nice to that kid causing him to get a little soft.

The Chinese coach however can be tough to the kids kinda like either it kills him or it makes him stronger because he has so many talents.

So Chinese players are probably better in all areas, skill, athleticism and mental strength because the training and the competition was so tough since they were kids while European talents might get pampered more and get more easy blowout wins as juniors due to less competition so they are not as used to tight matches also.

Great points. Everyone who makes it to the top has talent, to say it "means nothing" makes no sense to me. However, depending which system they went through, those select few in China who reach the highest level might have gone through more trials/weeding out process than those in Germany. To say that mentality is everything is confusing because even notorious chokers like Lin Gaoyuan or Hao Shuai are supremely talented, more so than likely 90% of fellow pros, and 99.999999% of all competitive table tennis players.
 
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Yes, it is special when a european star comes out ontop but I don't think that automatically means they have more talent. The points in the original post are great but you also have to realize that in China, the huge population size picks out the talented players. Yes, Chinese players do recieve the best conditions for table tennis, but good training alone can't get you through the massive competition in China. The players that make it into national team are players who make it based on their given talents and not technical superiority. This high level of talent is a major factor in the success and dominance of Chinese athletes.

I think what it really comes down to is the fact that Asian and Chinese players are not geographically close to Europe and even the Americas. Players who are seperated from some place don't get to experience the same things. This variation is, in part, is why the European players can come out ontop. Their European style is different from the Chinese style and the unfamiliar game can be a major factor (but not the only factor) for who wins. It's like playing long pips for the first time, you can be at the highest level but if you've never played long pips you're probably going to loose.
 
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I think what it really comes down to is the fact that Asian and Chinese players are not geographically close to Europe and even the Americas. Players who are seperated from some place don't get to experience the same things. This variation is, in part, is why the European players can come out ontop. Their European style is different from the Chinese style and the unfamiliar game can be a major factor (but not the only factor) for who wins. It's like playing long pips for the first time, you can be at the highest level but if you've never played long pips you're probably going to loose.

Maybe 50 years ago. Not today, with how globalized the game has become. Top level coaches, practice partners, pro players from Asia are abundant in Europe and the Americas, etc. Pro players frequently train outside of their region, and there is generally much table tennis that is exchanged across regions.
 
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Maybe 50 years ago. Not today, with how globalized the game has become. Top level coaches, practice partners, pro players from Asia are abundant in Europe and the Americas, etc. Pro players frequently train outside of their region, and there is generally much table tennis that is exchanged across regions.

Isn't this post talking about players from 50 years ago like Waldner? You are totally right about asian players and specifically chinese players going abroad, but in the end, its not like you can grow up training in both asia and europe. There is still going to be variation in the way a european person plays vs an asian/Chinese player. Even if you are very experienced in playing a different style, its still a different style and its just another factor in who wins.
 
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Really great thread!!

i think that if a Youngster is ‘talented’ (very talented) generally towards sports, they can put their hand to any sport and generally be very good at a range of different sports at the same time. Then a choice has to be made, which sport to concentrate on ?
This choice is then biased, perception of a sport within different countries is different, and this effects the persons choice, as does money.
So it’s rarer, for let’s say an English youngster to choose table tennis because table tennis is a ‘low profile’ sport here.

An example I know of is a girl that was an around sportswomen, she was coached at badminton, ranked No 1 in the country in her age groups as she grew older. At a tournament she was watched by a ‘Scout’ after the tournament ended he approached her and her parents and offered her membership to one of the countries top golf clubs, free equipment & coaching, money was also mentioned, in that success at golf is more rewarding monetary wise.

She decided to have a free lesson, he entered her in a long dive comp the following weekend, she smashed everyone in her age group and walked away with £700!!!

English Badminton lost a rare talent on that day.

She fits perfectly into Zeio’s post about identifying a talented youngster, the last one was yet to be fore filled as she was still developing.
So the chances of this (now grown) lady making it to the top level in golf are far less, as far more talented people are drawn towards the higher profile sports.
Her chances of playing at a National and International level at Badminton were probably far higher, but this didn’t seem to count for much!!!

Now, if she had been living in China where, like table tennis, badminton is considered as a ‘National’ sport, it’s very likely she would have chosen Badminton over golf.
Whether she would have made it into the Chinese National Badminton Team is another thing entirely!!! Because of the population size, talented sportspersons are ten a penny!!!!

I think the challenge that China faces, is maintaining the perceived importance of table tennis, once the general population see Chinese ‘Stars’ in other sports and earning more money, there may be a big shift away from table tennis as their talented youngsters try something different.
But due to the vast population and popularity of table tennis, even if they lost 50 percent of their most talented juniors to other sports, they would still produce world class players!!!!!;);)
 
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Really interesting thread.

I guess I would point to the old saying "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work."

Or perhaps a better comment is that having a systematic approach to producing players (China) is better than relying on having the most talented players.
 
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Really great thread!!

i think that if a Youngster is ‘talented’ (very talented) generally towards sports, they can put their hand to any sport and generally be very good at a range of different sports at the same time. Then a choice has to be made, which sport to concentrate on ?
This choice is then biased, perception of a sport within different countries is different, and this effects the persons choice, as does money.
So it’s rarer, for let’s say an English youngster to choose table tennis because table tennis is a ‘low profile’ sport here.

In the Chinese system there is oftentimes little choice involved in the matter. If you are determined to have the right body type and natural skills for table tennis (or any other sport) that is what you get shepherded into and next thing you know you've gone down that path without any reasonable exit plan. This happens from a young age in kids.

In other countries and continents, kids have more choice. Oftentimes the naturally athletic kids who may be good at table tennis are also good at other sports and oftentimes end up pursuing the other sport or both. Jorg Rosskopf stated that even in Germany, football has taken over as the primary sport that youth are interested in and playing, with the 2014 World Cup accelerating that.

Jon Persson from Sweden splits time as both a national team table tennis player and professional league football player.
 
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