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    1. Top | #81
      yogi_bear is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zyu81 View Post
      Then credit to you for that.
      I assume your hitting method for the rubber is more on brushing rather than hitting through the sponge? This is the thing i am seeing with O7p, if you like to brush a lot then the omega 7 asia is much more suited. Otherwise, you would see your balls fall.
      Last edited by yogi_bear; 6 Days Ago at 07:13 PM.
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    2. Top | #82
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      Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear View Post
      I assume your hitting method for the rubber is kore on brushing rather than hitting through the sponge? This is the thing i am seeing with O7p, if you like to brush a lot then the omega 7 asia is much more suited. Otherwise, you would see your balls fall.
      You engage the sponge on every shot to some degree, but I can't really generalize as it depends on each individual play. I found the O7P to have unsatisfactory spin on pretty much all shots.

    3. Top | #83
      zeio is offline
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      Sorry to butt in. I suppose we agree the market doesn't lie?

      For 2019, Butterfly absolutely destroyed ESN. Nearly 5 times in profit. It didn't happen overnight.

      Xiom didn't stop bleeding in Europe for several years until 2018. 2019 wasn't exactly great. The only market they could top Butterfly is you guessed it - Korea.
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    4. Top | #84
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      I second the above opinion and would like to say that just because of the low arc and lack of spin the O7P provides plenty of control, perfect match for my bh. On my FH it was close to disaster because I seem to brush while spinning. O7A wasn't better at all ...and not just for me. I don't think that I have the nerve, the urge or the money to try the mighty Tour nor the miraculous Hyper. BTW, I play in two different leagues and meet lots of brilliant players but still haven't seen anyone using those stupidly expensive new Omega's. I must also say that I was a big fan and supporter of that brand.

    5. Top | #85
      zyu81 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kolev View Post
      On my FH it was close to disaster because I seem to brush while spinning. O7A wasn't better at all ...and not just for me. I don't think that I have the nerve, the urge or the money to try the mighty Tour nor the miraculous Hyper. BTW, I play in two different leagues and meet lots of brilliant players but still haven't seen anyone using those stupidly expensive new Omega's. I must also say that I was a big fan and supporter of that brand.
      About sums it up for me.

    6. Top | #86
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Okay. A comment that I will delete shortly:

      The discussion between Yogi and Scrubplayer, I am going to delete most of it because I think it is besides the point.

      One thing I will say is, the basic underlying details of that discussion, from my perspective, did not seem like they were useful to the thread, the OP of the thread or to the forum.

      Any time someone is insisting that their experience of equipment, no matter how good the player, is the only useful info, that, I feel is demonstrates problematic behavior. And when you have said your opinion, I am not so sure there is a reason to restate the same opinion 20 more times. Once is enough for people to know your opinion.

      So guys, try to behave. When you have given your opinion and someone disagrees, you don't have to restate what you already posted. Just move on. What you have previously posted should still hold water if it actually held water to begin with.

      I will add one more detail. I have seen footage of Scrubplayer and he is a solid player. I have also seen footage of Yogi and he is a solid player. I don't care if nobody else on this thread has seen footage of one or either of these guys play. I have seen both. They both can play. So, questions about who can play or how well, they should end here. Yogi is modest but he knows how to spin the ball and has good technique. You should not need to question that again.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 6 Days Ago at 12:56 AM.
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    7. Top | #87
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Now, something on rubbers that will stay:

      1) Xiom rubbers sometimes are good for when a player needs more control because some Xiom rubbers are not too reactive to incoming spin. However, a rubber that is not so sensitive to incoming spin, which will therefore make it easier for a mid-level player to control, BY DEFINITION, will usually not be able to generate as much spin.

      2) The idea of getting a rubber that has less speed, MORE SPIN while being more easy to control, well, usually physics and rubbers don't work that way. So, that goal would be hard to find. But you can find rubbers that are slower and very spinny. They just would cause you to need to get used to how to handle incoming spin for that rubber.

      3) Butterfly rubbers, in my opinion, are really the best rubbers out there. But that still does not mean they are the best rubbers for everyone. Each person is different. And there are some rubbers that are good enough even if not as good as Butterfly rubbers. And sometimes something that isn't as good, in a certain way is better for some players. The idea that everyone should only use one thing is a bit silly. Still, Butterfly rubbers are really quite high quality products. And they do seem to me to keep their level of performance for longer than rubbers from most other brands.

      4) Some rubbers that might be okay for OP: Donic Baracuda, Evolution ELS, FXS, or FXP, Rozena, T05fx, T05. I have a friend who is decently high level who uses T05fx on both sides despite what everyone says about the poly ball. He is able to supply enough power on his own despite the soft rubber on FH. Didn't Lebesson win the 2016 European Championships with FXP on both sides? That was Poly Ball Era. So you still can use a soft rubber on the FH for more control if you want to.

      So, I have a few questions for the OP, and hopefully all this is helpful to you:

      1) It looks like you have used FXS and ELS; why not those rubbers? Those sound exactly like what you are asking for. They are not as good as T05 or T05fx but they are still pretty darn good. And a little easier to control than the Tenergy rubbers because the sponge is less dynamic.

      2) Why are you set on continuing to use a blade that sounds like it is hard for you to handle? If I was you, to me, it sounds like what I would do is get a blade like a Stratus Power Wood or a Petr Korbel and put T05/T05fx on that. That would make it so you are not trying to tone down the rubbers to make it so you can handle the blade. In that scenario, I would almost always tone down the blade to use the highest quality rubbers I could handle rather than the other way around.

      I also feel you should try to use Max thickness sponge if you are trying to spin the ball. If you are not, ignore. But if you want to spin the ball and improve your technique at spinning the hell out of the ball, you are better off toning down the blade and using Max thickness sponge on a blade you can handle. If you want to do the research, Werner Schlager explains why he feels players developing to loop on both wings should only use Max thickness rubbers. I came to that on my own. But I agree with Schlager. He gives a good explanation. I will not do it here. But if you really want me to explain why I feel that, cause it is the similar to Schlager's explanation, but still not quite the same. So, if you really want me to explain, I will. But I know there are lots of people who feel using thinner rubbers for more control is good. I won't argue with them. There is always more than one way to build a tree house. So I can explain my understanding of the subject without needing to say that it is the only way.

      But this post has been long enough. The simple statement I would say is I think it would be worthwhile to tone down the blade and get the rubber that will really help you progress on a blade that allows you to handle that rubber. This Inner Fiber blade you have will not go anywhere while your technique improves to grow into handling it with the rubbers you want.

      Korbel, Power Wood, Offensive S, those are not expensive blades. One of them with rubbers like ELS, FXS, T05 and/or T05fx would be good.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 6 Days Ago at 01:06 AM.

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    9. Top | #88
      Bazza is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Now, something on rubbers that will stay:

      1) Xiom rubbers sometimes are good for when a player needs more control because some Xiom rubbers are not too reactive to incoming spin. However, a rubber that is not so sensitive to incoming spin, which will therefore make it easier for a mid-level player to control, BY DEFINITION, will usually not be able to generate as much spin.

      2) The idea of getting a rubber that has less speed, MORE SPIN while being more easy to control, well, usually physics and rubbers don't work that way. So, that goal would be hard to find. But you can find rubbers that are slower and very spinny. They just would cause you to need to get used to how to handle incoming spin for that rubber.

      3) Butterfly rubbers, in my opinion, are really the best rubbers out there. But that still does not mean they are the best rubbers for everyone. Each person is different. And there are some rubbers that are good enough even if not as good as Butterfly rubbers. And sometimes something that isn't as good, in a certain way is better for some players. The idea that everyone should only use one thing is a bit silly. Still, Butterfly rubbers are really quite high quality products. And they do seem to me to keep their level of performance for longer than rubbers from most other brands.

      4) Some rubbers that might be okay for OP: Donic Baracuda, Evolution ELS, FXS, or FXP, Rozena, T05fx, T05. I have a friend who is decently high level who uses T05fx on both sides despite what everyone says about the poly ball. He is able to supply enough power on his own despite the soft rubber on FH. Didn't Lebesson win the 2016 European Championships with FXP on both sides? That was Poly Ball Era. So you still can use a soft rubber on the FH for more control if you want to.

      So, I have a few questions for the OP, and hopefully all this is helpful to you:

      1) It looks like you have used FXS and ELS; why not those rubbers? Those sound exactly like what you are asking for. They are not as good as T05 or T05fx but they are still pretty darn good. And a little easier to control than the Tenergy rubbers because the sponge is less dynamic.

      2) Why are you set on continuing to use a blade that sounds like it is hard for you to handle? If I was you, to me, it sounds like what I would do is get a blade like a Stratus Power Wood or a Petr Korbel and put T05/T05fx on that. That would make it so you are not trying to tone down the rubbers to make it so you can handle the blade. In that scenario, I would almost always tone down the blade to use the highest quality rubbers I could handle rather than the other way around.

      I also feel you should try to use Max thickness sponge if you are trying to spin the ball. If you are not, ignore. But if you want to spin the ball and improve your technique at spinning the hell out of the ball, you are better off toning down the blade and using Max thickness sponge on a blade you can handle. If you want to do the research, Werner Schlager explains why he feels players developing to loop on both wings should only use Max thickness rubbers. I came to that on my own. But I agree with Schlager. He gives a good explanation. I will not do it here. But if you really want me to explain why I feel that, cause it is the similar to Schlager's explanation, but still not quite the same. So, if you really want me to explain, I will. But I know there are lots of people who feel using thinner rubbers for more control is good. I won't argue with them. There is always more than one way to build a tree house. So I can explain my understanding of the subject without needing to say that it is the only way.

      But this post has been long enough. The simple statement I would say is I think it would be worthwhile to tone down the blade and get the rubber that will really help you progress on a blade that allows you to handle that rubber. This Inner Fiber blade you have will not go anywhere while your technique improves to grow into handling it with the rubbers you want.

      Korbel, Power Wood, Offensive S, those are not expensive blades. One of them with rubbers like ELS, FXS, T05 and/or T05fx would be good.
      Interesting and valuable input for me. Thanks.

      In answer to questions:

      1. Control is not particularly an issue for me. Just wanted to not lose it too much with a rubber upgrade. Wanted to upgrade to the "best?" to put the EJ to bed. Just need to play and forget about the setup.

      2. I like the apparent characteristics of the Innerforce Layer ALC blade with a limba to layer. IE. Good sensitivity and touch a low speeds but with a 'turbo' to engage when required for the power shots. It seems the ideal scenario for me. Plus the fact that I already have already the blade from a fellow player. However I see what you are saying about the Stratus blade and will bear that in mind.

      Thanks also for the direction to Schlager's report. I have read it and it says it all.

    10. Top | #89
      Kuba Hajto is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bazza View Post
      Interesting and valuable input for me. Thanks.

      In answer to questions:

      1. Control is not particularly an issue for me. Just wanted to not lose it too much with a rubber upgrade. Wanted to upgrade to the "best?" to put the EJ to bed. Just need to play and forget about the setup.
      That is not how it works. If you over shoot with the level of gear you will play worse. Play with whatever is good for you at a particular point in time. If you won't have good enough skill level the best rubber would be annoying, hard to use, you will miss a lot. Real pain in the butt. I am not saying you are too weak to wield mighty Tenergy. I am just saying to you might be a bit heartbroken. I am not saying that you will, I am just indicating that you might.

      +1 on slower, non carbon blade.

    11. Top | #90
      Bazza is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto View Post
      That is not how it works. If you over shoot with the level of gear you will play worse. Play with whatever is good for you at a particular point in time. If you won't have good enough skill level the best rubber would be annoying, hard to use, you will miss a lot. Real pain in the butt. I am not saying you are too weak to wield mighty Tenergy. I am just saying to you might be a bit heartbroken. I am not saying that you will, I am just indicating that you might.

      +1 on slower, non carbon blade.
      Thanks Kuba. I appreciate the point that you are making.

    12. Top | #91
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bazza View Post
      Interesting and valuable input for me. Thanks.

      In answer to questions:

      1. Control is not particularly an issue for me. Just wanted to not lose it too much with a rubber upgrade. Wanted to upgrade to the "best?" to put the EJ to bed. Just need to play and forget about the setup.

      2. I like the apparent characteristics of the Innerforce Layer ALC blade with a limba to layer. IE. Good sensitivity and touch a low speeds but with a 'turbo' to engage when required for the power shots. It seems the ideal scenario for me. Plus the fact that I already have already the blade from a fellow player. However I see what you are saying about the Stratus blade and will bear that in mind.

      Thanks also for the direction to Schlager's report. I have read it and it says it all.
      If control is not an issue for you, then you should simply get T05 and T05fx. FXS, ELS, MXS, FXP, MXP are all fine instead but they are really not quite as good even if they may be better to use for some players.

      So, if you are saying you want to upgrade to what is best, then you should just get Tenergy for sure. Forget about the rest.

      If you get Tenergy and find CONTROL is actually an issue, then, of course, CONTROL is an issue and you should just slow down the blade till you can handle Tenergy on it.

      A Power Wood or a Korbel will not actually be too different from an Inner Fiber that is Limba-Limba-Composite-Core since Korbel and Power Wood are Limba-Limba-Core so the only difference is there is no composite layer. Which means, on short game they will play very similarly. On long game the Inner Fiber will give you a little more power from Mid-Distance and further.

      Start with Tenergy. Forget the rest. If you are trying not to EJ, there is a reason why nothing was close to Tenergy until the last year or so. And most of the non-Butterfly rubbers that are comparable, wear out much quicker so the cost benefit is really not much of a factor since you can get ESN rubbers for half the price of Tenergy and you can use Tenergy for 2-3x longer.

      That is at least my experience and how I see it. Other opinions are fine. But trying to be as objective as possible (please note, I don't use Tenergy, I use things that are close enough but not made by Butterfly most of the time; But, If I had just used Tenergy instead, in the long run, it is true, I would have saved a small amount of money and I would have been using a rubber that is slightly better; I am okay with a little EJing to get to try new things) and in my opinion, if you want what is best, and has the most potential for generating spin, that would be T05 until you are ready for Dignics.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 5 Days Ago at 04:28 PM.

    13. Top | #92
      Konrad Bak is offline
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      There is no subject as control.
      There is a process from you or opponent to lose control.

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    15. Top | #93
      Bazza is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      If control is not an issue for you, then you should simply get T05 and T05fx. FXS, ELS, MXS, FXP, MXP are all fine instead but they are really not quite as good even if they may be better to use for some players.

      So, if you are saying you want to upgrade to what is best, then you should just get Tenergy for sure. Forget about the rest.

      If you get Tenergy and find CONTROL is actually an issue, then, of course, CONTROL is an issue and you should just slow down the blade till you can handle Tenergy on it.

      A Power Wood or a Korbel will not actually be too different from an Inner Fiber that is Limba-Limba-Composite-Core since Korbel and Power Wood are Limba-Limba-Core so the only difference is there is no composite layer. Which means, on short game they will play very similarly. On long game the Inner Fiber will give you a little more power from Mid-Distance and further.

      Start with Tenergy. Forget the rest. If you are trying not to EJ, there is a reason why nothing was close to Tenergy until the last year or so. And most of the non-Butterfly rubbers that are comparable, wear out much quicker so the cost benefit is really not much of a factor since you can get ESN rubbers for half the price of Tenergy and you can use Tenergy for 2-3x longer.

      That is at least my experience and how I see it. Other opinions are fine. But trying to be as objective as possible (please note, I don't use Tenergy, I use things that are close enough but not made by Butterfly most of the time; But, If I had just used Tenergy instead, in the long run, it is true, I would have saved a small amount of money and I would have been using a rubber that is slightly better; I am okay with a little EJing to get to try new things) and in my opinion, if you want what is best, and has the most potential for generating spin, that would be T05 until you are ready for Dignics.
      That's it then. Case closed! Thanks to your objective post I have no doubt whatsoever what is the way forward. Right the next thing is that I need to redecorate the lounge. How are you with colour schemes!

      Thank you for putting things into perspective so clearly. I understand why you have the role on the Forum that you have your goonship. I would like you to come to the UK and stand for our parliament. We could do with your decisiveness.
      Sorry I am rather blowing smoke but I don't mean to. I am just very grateful for your input that has finally helped me in a way forward.
      Thank you.

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    17. Top | #94
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      Quote Originally Posted by Konrad Bak View Post
      There is no subject as control.
      There is a process from you or opponent to lose control.
      Yeah. I agree with this.

      It is a custom of speech that we say: "This rubber has control." It is really that a rubber is easier or harder to control. It is the person who exerts the skill to control the medium. And then the question needs to be: "Easier to control for WHAT; for what kinds of shots, for what kinds of contact, for what level of player?"

      For instance, Long Pips make it easier to control the ball if you want to make certain kinds of shots against certain kinds of incoming spin. But it is very hard to try and loop and have control if you are using LP. Rubbers that are very spinny make it harder to control your shots if you are hitting balls with moderate to low amounts of spin with flatter contact. But if you are hitting heavy heavy topspin shots with a very spinny offensive rubber, the very spinny offensive rubber makes it easier to control the ball because the use of tangential contact for heavy topspin allows the ball to arc towards the table making it easier to make accurate shots and not miss.

      If you are used to a very spinny, grippy, spin sensitive rubber you learn that if you have good racket speed and make tangential contact while letting the topsheet grab the ball, you can spin almost anything so that it arcs onto the table. When you let the topsheet grab the ball, you also let the ball sink into the sponge. Different depths of use for the sponge give you different results. So, for what I am talking about, you have to be able to control your depth of contact as well. But when you can do that, thicker sponge and rubbers that are more spinny allow you to exert a great deal of control over the arc of the ball for those kinds of spinny topspin shots.

      The above description is also related to why Schlager recommends that you never use a rubber thinner than Max if you wanted to learn a two winged looping topspin game.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 5 Days Ago at 10:38 PM.

    18. Top | #95
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bazza View Post
      That's it then. Case closed! Thanks to your objective post I have no doubt whatsoever what is the way forward. Right the next thing is that I need to redecorate the lounge. How are you with colour schemes!

      Thank you for putting things into perspective so clearly. I understand why you have the role on the Forum that you have your goonship. I would like you to come to the UK and stand for our parliament. We could do with your decisiveness.
      Sorry I am rather blowing smoke but I don't mean to. I am just very grateful for your input that has finally helped me in a way forward.
      Thank you.
      People skills. A lot of my work is explaining things to very fussy, high maintenance people. That sounds a bit like my marriage as well (widowed). When you have enough practice with those things you can explain things soundly without thinking you need to be "Correct" or aggressive. It is clear that I really did not say much that was different from someone else on the thread. It was just the way it was said rather than the overall assessment.

      But I have gotten into my share of flame wars as well. One day I will grow up.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 5 Days Ago at 05:50 PM.

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    20. Top | #96
      Konrad Bak is offline
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      Schlager played 7,5 mm outer low throw carbon blade with extra glue on Sriver or Bryce or Tenergy
      when every player had thin 5ply blade....
      I think in 20' he use to play with 65 degree rubber with 10 layers of booster on 12 mm thick 3+2ply hinoki super zlc blade and still block every shot and make everybody in top 20 dance.
      He is out of mind and time in his technic skills

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    22. Top | #97
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      If you buy fast soft blade like innerforce layer alc.
      2mm of medium hard rubber is good choice. I got good vibes to not using max thickness in first swap from other carbon to alc blade...

    23. The Following User Likes Konrad Bak's Post:

      Bazza (5 Days Ago)

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