Why are there restrictions for pips out rubbers?

says Fair Play first
says Fair Play first
Well-Known Member
Jan 2012
1,285
406
1,760
ITTF issued an official call for a device able to detect low-friction pimples-out right "on situ" at any competition. Italian engineer won the tender with a portable @BatTester easy to use/ This is how it works the testing Form to be fulfilled by the umpire on duty.

https://m.vk.com/doc199930161_625816581

Be happy.
 
This user has no status.
ITTF issued an official call for a device able to detect low-friction pimples-out right "on situ" at any competition. Italian engineer won the tender with a portable @BatTester easy to use/ This is how it works the testing Form to be fulfilled by the umpire on duty.

https://m.vk.com/doc199930161_625816581

Be happy.
Nope, the Chinese had these way before.

 
says Fair Play first
says Fair Play first
Well-Known Member
Jan 2012
1,285
406
1,760
[size=+1]WHY SENIOR PLAYERS TREATING THEIR LONG PIMPS SHAMELESSLY.
Table tennis competitions as staged specifically for the veteran players over 40 years old, all can be rightly denoted as Venue of Cheaters. I myself have attended senior tournaments more than once, and I could see some participants deliberately using low-friction pimples to fool an opponent. Yes, many veteran players, in pursuit of their personal ambitions, have betaken to unworthy deception -- low-friction pimples to fool people. Since it is no longer possible to get the "frictionless" rubbers from a marketplace, those unworthy veterans came up with the unworthy idea of treating their rubbers at home. According to the ITTF technical standards, all the pimples-out rubbers that are found to have frictionality of less than 0.5, are deamed an illegal material, and all the low-friction pimples are now banned for using in a statutory competition.

Cheating an opponent at a competition is so a vile sin that has no good excuses at all. [/size]
 
Last edited:
says Table tennis clown
says Table tennis clown
Well-Known Member
Apr 2020
3,318
1,763
7,142
If the forum couldn't figure out my view on the pips situation by my smart-aleck comment, I will say it plainly.

ITTF made restictions on aspect ratio and banned frictionless pips, because THEY COULD... and DID.

HOW did they achieve this by vote, when EVERY STRONG TT NATION could give a flying fluff if wierd acting pips existed?

HOW you ask? The same way a certain side of the political spectrum stacks the deck.

Find people, make them eligble to vote when they otherwise would not be qualified, promise and deliver free stuff paid for by the other ones qualified to vote, and greatly increase your position to where you now dominate any vote.

ITTF prez back in the day did a huge recruitment of nations to join ITTF as voting members with promises and actual giving of freebies to win over the delagates... who voted for the things the freebie giver wanted. It made zero difference what the major TT power nations delagates said or wanted...

Of course nearly every TT nation changed their national rules to be a literal cut and paste with very minor mods to become the ITTF rules... and hence, what ITTF boss did, controlled who lived and died in TT.

This really pissed me off back in the day, because it really pissed off the geezer crowd. Why worry about a bunch of GEEZERS?

WHY? ... because this geezer crowd contributed to TT for DECADES and got little out of it, then ITTF and the natl assns want to wipe out participation of the geezer crowd... which was a very large chunk of the TT population who CONTRIBUTED to the sport MANY TIMES more than other segments for WAY LONGER... and now we want to force that crowd to re-learn a new sport just to enjoy their lives?

That was pretty much tantamount to banning them from driving cars and learn how to operate some other piece of transportation that takes to long to master. It was morally WRONG and still is... but it is in the past. Almost no one spoke up for that crowd, but the reality is, ITTF and natl assns disenfranchized their most valuable contributors financially to the sport.

Why would a geezer crowd be so valuable financially? Who volunteers to stuff for free in a club? 90%+ of the time it is an older dude (A California word for either gender). Who is always chipping in with extra money to make a tournament have more prizes? Older dudes. Who cleans up at the clubs? Usually the older crowd. Who in large numbers shows up to a club and pays for membership and often coaching? Older dudes.

USA clubs were already a mm close to not meeting many expenses, and when the geezer crowd go away, the club cannot generate enough income to survive...

... so when you piss off the geezer crowd who was a contributor in many ways, many clubs are now under much more pressure to stay afloat... and hte quality of the club deminishes.

That is why I said what I said and I pretty much say this 1-2 times a year when the topic appears on forums.

these comments are completely supported by a fellow Anarchist 😆

 
This user has no status.

Geezers ? Is that not (sort of but not totally) a disrespetful word to use about veterans ? I guess the word is like maybe 25% offensive (not sure about its American usage) but not completely offensive and yest definitely not as offensive as phrases like "junk rubber" or "normal rubber" players or the self-defecating phrase "dark side" (used by pips / anti players)

Anyway I agree with what you imply and this is why the soon to be released new association WdTTF.com will use separate rulesets for youth , all ages & veterans. The youth events rules are both player (grassroots development) oriented as well as spectataor presentation oriented , the all age events rules are spectataor presentation oriented and veterans events rules are player oriented.

This is also exactly why I am asking that all veterans tournaments, lots of them in Europe especially Bulgaria to start using WdTTF.com rules. I also ask that Dr.Neubauer run an International Veterans Championships (IVC) using WdTTF.com rules to put Scholer's WVC out of business. If anyone has the financial power to do it,, it would be Dr.Neubauer.. There is no better way for Dr.Neubauer to get his last laugh against Scholer for the 1998 Durban AR Reduction Massacre & the 2008 Frictionless Pips Ban.

You talking about “offensive” words.
you have no idea how many people you can offend with one post…😁

 
says Rozena! You complete me.
says Rozena! You complete me.
Well-Known Member
Mar 2021
2,340
2,318
5,377
Kindly indulge me a little as I came in late into the game, i.e., I came into this game post many-many rules change. In a way, I am a player of the modern era of TT.

If frictionless pimples is an issue, and players who loves playing with them why don't they just slap on a anti-spin rubber? I mean its not the exact same, but should be close enough no? And Anti-spin rubber is still allowed by ITTF. So why complain?

Also, please indulge me, why is frictionless pimple banned? Does it gives the user an unfair advantage? Does it makes the game bad for spectator. I can understand if spectator hate the game, the game will go no where. Ticket sales will suffer and that is a big no no for any sports.

So my basic question remains: Why do they ban frictionless pimples. What is the reason for that?
 
  • Like
Reactions: PingBirdPong
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,822
13,217
30,396
Read 27 reviews
Young people relate to what a geezer is. In the context I use it, there is even more contrast. I am qualified for full membership into the geezer class, I will freely use the term and not worry about lefties calling me names.

Anyone seeing me in real life will know I respect old people and little kids... those are two classes of people to be nicer towards if you consider urself human.

The SACRAMENTO cheer is something I do for the older crowd when I see them make a FH winner with some degree of power... slap bat down on table in surprise, roll up sleave, flex bicep, give old one the thumbs up as tribute in a sudden and powerful manner. I take this cheer to amateur clubs everywhere. I will randomly watch and give this cheer as a surprise to those I do not know after their winner and they are really surprised... and laughing their azz of.

That is how I cause trouble. Anyone not liking it can take a number and take it up with me in person further, but that is a low percentage play, unless you bring a long an entire 1000 pack of business cards that say Tanya Harding Consulting LLC.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,260
6,232
15,305
Read 3 reviews

Carly Siman
Re your comment on 4mm :
So many pros still fail the thickness infraction (4mm rule) at racket control desk. you don't need a lab for that, a few dollar rubber measuring device can work. https://documentstore.ittf.com/documents/Copy of players_RC_infractions_2022_05_12.pdf

Regarding your other comment to me,
I'm replying to a 15 year old kid. Not replying to a historian major.

And when did I say ITTF ban all pips regarding LGL's pip? seriously, still making assumption on my simple sentence.

 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: PingBirdPong
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,260
6,232
15,305
Read 3 reviews

these comments are completely supported by a fellow Anarchist 😆

Its just common sense. People think ITTF (or politicians that you voted in) are godlike.
Everything is by vote, so if you don't like the result of the vote - you should ask questions to your national representative.
That is hows think work in a democratic organization.

Having said that, I think ITTF has too many rights on the playing of TT on the fundamental levels.

Table tennis should be in 2 parts - 1 is professional, the other is amateur.
ITTF and its habit of rule changes can go on the professional part, while amateur can have some that follows the pros, while the others follows FUN.

I play quite a few other sports other than table tennis, take basketball for example - we have our own rules, and we don't care what FIBA (or NBA) has in the rule book.

 
This user has no status.
Gozo;370182 :- If frictionless pimples is an issue, and players who loves playing with them why don't they just slap on a anti-spin rubber? I mean its not the exact same, but should be close enough no? And Anti-spin rubber is still allowed by ITTF. So why complain?

This is a very good (historical) question. But to answer this, a historical background is needed. The original long pips were not designed as disruption based rubbers. They were designed for away from the table choppers and to provide maximum spin reversal. but rubber manufacturers saw this as a great business opportunity and started advertising that their rubbers were the most confusing or disruptive. The earliest ones Yasaka Phantom 007, 008, 009 & Double Fish 1615 & TSP Curl P1 were in this category. But almost none of the away from the table choppers, from Pro to top amateur levels used the above two brands but they chose Feint Long (Classic version) . This is because Feint Long was the least unpredictable or least disruptive (meaning most controllable) rubber. Yet ITTF banned Feint Long by passing the 1998 Durban Aspect Ratio Reduction Change to punish a handful of players who were supposedly microwaving P1-Curl. But the crazy thing about 1998 AR Reduction change was that the far more deceptive Phantom 007 & Double Fish 1615 were left legal after 1998 & remain legal as of today.
Why is all this relevant ? It is because of what happened after 1998. The REAL reason for the 1998 Aspect Ratio change and the 2008 Frictionless Pips Ban were not technical but purely political and aimed at Dr.Neubauer. But, after 1998 , Dr.Neubauer started manipulating parameters other than Aspect Ratio to produce more disruptive rubbers & this angered a certain person in ITTF even more for non-technical reasons and this is the reason for the 2008 Frictionless Pips Ban.

But the trend started after 1998 with focus on creating more disruptive rubbers continues today and even short pips makers are trying to manipulate pips design parameters to make them as disruptive as long pips.

Also keep in mind that the frictionless long pips are meant for close to the table blockers and high friction long pips are meant for away from the table choppers. But due to 1998, 2000, 2003 & 2014 changes, away from the table choppers (male) have been successfully exterminated by ITTF because there exists absolutely no long pips useful for a chopper in the 40+ plastic ball era and in fact there exists no blocking long pips as well. Popular blocking long pips like Tibhar Grass Dtec & popular chopping long pips like Butterfly Feint Long 3 are hilarious jokes & useless pieces of pure garbage in the 40+ plastic ball era.

So this brings us to your question > Aren’t anti-spin rubbers close enough to anti-spin rubbers ? No not by a mile.
Long-pips are functionally far superior to anti-spin rubbers in so many ways but I won’t get into details as to why here & write a book. Therefore all anti spin rubbers are an even bigger joke than even the utterly useless low aspect ratio crap on ITTF LARC. Anti-spin rubbers are basically TOTALLY uselsss in the 40+ plastic ball era even with chemical cheating by a handful of players (but nowhere close to speed-glue / booster cheats by tenfold) . The very existence of anti-spin rubbers in modern tabletennis is just pure marketing gimmick by manufacturers to sell rubbers though I am not really opposed to anti-spin rubbers because in the final analysis players do not always choose rubbers based on functionality and logic but based more on comfort level & feel.

Yes, anti-spin rubbers are far easier to use & far less complicated than frictionless long pips and this is probably the reason some players still prefer anti-spin rubbers. I personally don’t like to use disruptive long pips , but for those players who believe in disruption & deception , frictionless long pips are a far superior choice compared to anti-spin.

Most importantly, there is no such thing as close enough is good enough in tabletennis. Tabletennis is a high precision sport with cutting edge technology equipment. Microscpoic changes you make to your racket can greatly effect your performance when you compare players your equal skill levels (not comparing a pro to a beginner or even an advanced amateur).This is in addition to every single TT player having a unique overall style & requiring different rubbers on their primary (stronger) side (usually forehand) & secondary of different (or weaker) side (usually backhand for 90% of players)..
Ma Long can probably easily beat a 2000 player using a hardbat or a shoe but can Ma Long beat a 2800 player using hardbat ? Every minute change you make to your racket such as sponge type or thickness or blade type or even the handle type can significantly impact your performance against a player close to yoru skill level.

Gozo;370182 :- Also, please indulge me, why is frictionless pimple banned? Does it gives the user an unfair advantage? Does it makes the game bad for spectator. I can understand if spectator hate the game, the game will go no where. Ticket sales will suffer and that is a big no no for any sports.

Again you ask some good & fair questions.

Let us take two opponents with about the same rating say 1700 :- Player A is a two-winged spinny smooth rubber looper . Opponent (player B) uses a combination bat of any type short pips or long pips or anti. This 1700 looper always loses but complains loud that the pips / anti player B won ONLY because of pips. But is it really so ? No, because at any given rating level say 1700 (here) , there exists probably 100s or even 1000s of loopers in the world with ratings of 1700 (or even slightly less), who will comfortably ALWAYS beat this 1700 pips or anti player B. So the unfair advantage is 100% imaginary & pure paranoia in the mind of Player A. Of course if the looper wins, the pips player could easily whine that the looper won ONE & ONLY because the looper used speed-glues / boosters & 5 other rule / regulation changes, but have you ever heard that ?

But I agree with you that allowing frictionless pips / anti make the presentation of the sport to spectators at pro levels BAD. BUT only at the Pro levels. (To this extent I agree with the two color rule of 1983 but not in the context of 6 changes that followed) At lower levels how is it relevant ? At even high amateur levels, tabletennis really is not a spectator sport..

This is why the soon to be released new association https://WdTTF.com will use 3 different rulesets
  1. For youth events which is focused more on grassroots development (only spinnt smooth rubbers are allowed)
  2. For all age events focused on presentation to spectators
  3. Veterans events focused more on participant oriented and not spectator oriented.
  4. Better ruleset for Para players.
Oh my god/goddess/non-binary omnipresent deity, you have 19 posts(as of now), and all of them complain about “Joo Sae-hyuk being the GOAT and Ma Long is not” . Almost every one of them complains about ITTF.
Just why?

 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,260
6,232
15,305
Read 3 reviews
Oh my god/goddess/non-binary omnipresent deity, you have 19 posts(as of now), and all of them complain about “Joo Sae-hyuk being the GOAT and Ma Long is not” . Almost every one of them complains about ITTF.
Just why?

Bingo, troll alert.
They will go away soon and come again with another name

 
  • Haha
Reactions: PingBirdPong
This user has no status.
Oh my god/goddess/non-binary omnipresent deity, you have 19 posts(as of now), and all of them complain about “Joo Sae-hyuk being the GOAT and Ma Long is not” . Almost every one of them complains about ITTF.
Just why?

Even if this person is bombastic and overzealous, the underlying argument is correct. The ITTF sucks, and absolutely does not care about its players (especially pips players). No purpose was served by these pip changes except to homogenize the sport.

 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,260
6,232
15,305
Read 3 reviews

Long pip lovers, how much long pips players are you developing?

We have 2 LP choppers, 3 LP blockers in our team of 18 female U19 players. I say that is a damn good ratio.

All these things about LP this and LP that, but if you are not training next generation players and only arguing about yesterday and last decade or 50 years, I see there is indeed no future for your view.

And Carly, that wdttf site, I suggest to get a proper modern developer. You won't get much recurrence traffic having a website look like that.

 
  • Haha
Reactions: PingBirdPong
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,260
6,232
15,305
Read 3 reviews
So what you are saying is that I should completely ignore ITTF's past & ongoing corruption & accept what they give me as gospel & not question them & I should be training and promoting long pips players using long pips rubbers on the ITTF's LARC that are TOTALLY useless in the 40+ plastic ball era ?

REALLY ? Thanks for the laughs

BTW I see you have a whopping 1 chopper in 18 females. (I am by no means suggesting 50% player population should be choppers or even pips / anti players & even one female chopper is definitely a very good ratio for Africa )
Any male choppers ? African (male) chopper ..........OMG that is oh so hilarious (I don's mean this the wrong way...the comic (but super sad ) problem of male chopper extermination is not limited to Africa. Countries like India, Vietnam, Sweden etc are just as bad in their bigoted mentality that a male chopping is not macho) and this problem manifests in a different way in some countries Japan, because Japanese are not as bigoted or disrespectful and are willing to tolerate & respect long pips but would rather avoid it at all costs if possible as in the case of Mima Ito (not a chopper) and many short pips & double-invertedchoppers

Who said my players are African?
1 in 18? your maths is as bad as your guess work.
And female team and you asking about males, I really starting to doubt your comprehension skills. Lets leave it at that.

You sound like you are clueless of long pip or short pip players in Asia,
Especially in the female side, there are a lot of them in the U9 to U19 space. Compared to 10 or 20 years ago, I would say the ratio is easily double or triple the amount. Male side, most teams I know of have modern defenders.

Your bigoted nonsense is indeed nonsense in my table tennis circles, and not to be arrogant, but I do have a big circle.

Anyways, your motive of joining this forum is clear.

 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
Your posting flag shows a South Africa flag

Not sure what you mean. You first said 1 chopper but then changed to 2. But anyway all I said was even 1 (female) chopper in 18 was very good for Africa (based on assumption you are in South Afrcia)


We are talking in general about chopper issues. You are trying to prove that there is no chopper problem by trying to limit the discussion to female choppers and not letting me to talk about male choppers. . Nice try.

It still does not matter even if true. How many male choppers are there at top 50 today compared to say 10 years ago ?
Even if there were more (there are not) it still does not matter The question below still remains ( the question you are trying to cleevrly evade answering)
So what you are saying is that I should completely ignore ITTF's past & ongoing corruption & accept what they give me as gospel & not question them & I should be training and promoting long pips players using long pips rubbers on the ITTF's LARC that are TOTALLY useless in the 40+ plastic ball era ?

Why do I need a motive ? Even if a I have a motive it is abundently clear by now that you will refuse to evaluate it with an open mind. So there is no point is continuing . Good luck & good bye.
Yay! He’s gone!

 
Top