A rubber between MX-P and EL-S

Again, everyone, THINK.

An advantage of a slower, whether it is a little slower of more slower, is that such a rubber allows you to HIT HARDER and STILL LAND IT... often with MORE OVERALL QUALITY and HIGHER LANDING PERCENTAGES.

Isn't that a property you want in a rubber?

THINK.

Why is it said that Chinese rubber like H3 has more top end speed than ESN while being slower on most hits? How is it that ESN rubber can have some max threshold while a H3 cannot?

If you can match the potential spin output for either on a hard sponge, then the H3 should not have a speed advantage. I've tested hitting my best hardest hitting forehand Chinese stroke with both H3 and Tenergy05. Tenergy05 was faster and is still a bit easier to be consistent, since you can be lazier with it.

If compared to Omega 7 Hyper, then forget about it, but that one yeah you do have to take some steam off sometimes for consistency.

Maybe that old adage was true for soft and medium hardness rubbers though.

Der_Echte said:

such a rubber allows you to HIT HARDER and STILL LAND IT...

...

Isn't that a property you want in a rubber?

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Actually, no, because I don´t have a desire to hit harder. I am kinda old but I am taking time now on learning how to hold back and go for placement over power. Having said that, I prefer a rubber that is faster/has more catapult for those many other shots where hitting hard was never an option anyway.

And I feel with the modern generation rubbers I have way better shot quality than when I was young (and fast) enough to step around the backhand and fire hard hitted forehands at people, with a Sriver 1.5 mm sponge.

Der_Echte said:

often with MORE OVERALL QUALITY and HIGHER LANDING PERCENTAGES.

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Of course this is the target we agree on.

But a slow-ish rubber is not my way to get there.

T05? Someone recommended the Hype KR but it plays much softer. Good rubber though. Maybe Nexxus EL Pro 48, but I haven't tried it.

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Ask yourselves what does hitting harder actually mean???

For me it’s SPEED of the stroke and transferred power from your body into the bat at point of impact.

So which technique and rubber sponge combination is more efficient at this, European grippy / ESN or Chinese tacky / hard ? For a forehand loop?

For the technique, I would say Chinese technique has it (without going into too much detail as to why at this point!!!).

Now for the top sheets and sponges!!!!!

for a brushed heavy topspin the tacky rubbers hard sponge combo has it. Top sheet is engaged more for this shot. Resulting in heavier spin.
for a flat hit or smash the grippy ESN combo has it. ESN sponge is engaged more. Resulting in a faster shot. That’s why players twiddle their bat when using tacky hard on FH to the grippy ESN being used on BH.

The FH loop is somewhere in between, so this suggests that it requires the best parts of both !!!!

This can be seen in the way that the current sponge hardness trend and to a certain extent the more grippy / tackier top sheets are evolving.

It’s also down to what specific characteristics are required, low throw angle heavy spin and big forward kick/increased ball speed AFTER the bounce, usually associated with what the Chinese want to see, more emphasis on spin. Whereas the European’s want easy speed and good spin, emphasis on speed in general.

Of course this is a generalisation.

But we are now seeing harder spring sponges, grippier / tackier top sheet combinations from the euro/Japanese manufacturers and the Chinese manufacturers pre-boosting their already hard sponges to get more spring from the sponge. With H3 Nat being grippy rather than tacky!!!

So I would agree with Michael (to a certain extent !!!) A Euro / Japanese sponge/ top sheet used with Chinese technique is likely to carry more speed.
But people talk about this top speed being limited compared to the hard Chinese sponges that just get faster the ‘harder’ you hit with them. This is because they say more force is needed to actually. engage the hard sponge in order for it to ‘spring’ the ball forward faster.
Well, a flat hit directly compresses the top sheet and sponge and yet the result is still a slower ball speed with the hard Chinese sponge. So even at world class level, players can’t utilise the ‘so called’ potential of a hard Chinese sponge for speed. But what they can do is release the huge SPIN potential.

It definitely looks like both types of sponge / top sheet combination are going to the same ‘place’.

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I really wish Scoobie Doo Sergey Tsos would join and post on hte forum, he would as a 3rd person provide the right context for everyone what a slower, softer rubber does for me on BH wing when I am close to the table.

Nittaku Hammond... no speed glue no tuning... 3 week old sheet... I broke a blade (and mearly my entire wrist) on a corner of table going for a power shot on a ball that just didn't quite come long off the table... and used backup bat with Hammond on it (BH wing).

I was a boss of BH the rest of tourney using that softish slowish rubber. I could make it sing with my kind of impact.

I do not have the kind of impact to make that same rubber sing on FG, but with a softer dynamic modern rubber... absolutely.

One needs to discover what works with your kind of impacts to perform well on the most important shots that contribute to staying in and winning rallies. For me, on FH, it took some time and help, but I discovered modern Offensive dynamic rubbers with a softer sponge are it for my FH impact.

Maybe when I get better timing and coordination for the power I will do well with medium to firm sponged modern dynamic rubbers...

Konrad Bak said:

I dont understand
question was different.

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I was replying to Michael Kitts post and hit reply to thread rather than reply to Michael’s post. So apologies for that. The thread had moved on to hitting hard and sponge properties.

Michael Kitt said:

I've tested hitting my best hardest hitting forehand Chinese stroke with both H3 and Tenergy05.

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Try hitting harder, like Hayata hard.

zeio said:

Try hitting harder, like Hayata hard.

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Yes, she has excellent technique, which makes up for H3 lack of speed, likely to be boosted H3 as well, which also makes the H3 faster.

I hit harder than that. I literally put all of my energy into forehand topspin drives, and when tested I had a big upward follow through, while she sort of had a downward follow through, and is also a girl so less capable of harder hitting.

On backhand you can probably forget about matching the speed of many ESN rubbers, that's why they prefer it on forehand.

H3 can be really fast, but I think not top out as fast as T05, 07 Hyper, and some other hard non-chinese rubbers. H3 just offers more control in short game than most fast rubbers.

That said, I don't boost so... results may vary lol

Michael Kitt said:

I hit harder than that. I literally put all of my energy into forehand topspin drives, and when tested I had a big upward follow through, while she sort of had a downward follow through, and is also a girl so less capable of harder hitting.

On backhand you can probably forget about matching the speed of many ESN rubbers, that's why they prefer it on forehand.

H3 can be really fast, but I think not top out as fast as T05, 07 Hyper, and some other hard non-chinese rubbers. H3 just offers more control in short game than most fast rubbers.

That said, I don't boost so... results may vary lol

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Can we see some footage of this? I really would appreciate that.

Table tennis is so much about precision and technique. Someone much stronger than this with less developed technique may recruit more muscle effort and still not transfer as much power into the ball. So....wasted effort does not count in terms of power transferred to the ball in a TT stroke.

Also, not sure of your analysis, that followthrough looks pretty good. And the most important part, how she pops into the ball with her whole body, that looks like excellent timing on use of legs, weight transfer, core rotation, upper arm, lower arm, wrist, all popping into the ball together. That is good timing on contact. And her weight transfer is nothing short of amazing. In some of those shots, the amount her hips can be seen moving forward towards the table as she loads the weight from left leg to right leg is rare and how much that transfers power into the ball should not be underestimated. Even in the shot where she is caught off balance with her feet parallel to each other, she still manages to get her hips to move forward as she turns her waste. Really great use of the whole body transferring power into the ball. Pound for pound that is as good as anyone.

So, I would love to see the power of those stokes you have. I think we could all learn something from such good technique.

UpSideDownCarl said:

Can we see some footage of this? I really would appreciate that.

Table tennis is so much about precision and technique. Someone much stronger than this with less developed technique may recruit more muscle effort and still not transfer as much power into the ball. So....wasted effort does not count in terms of power transferred to the ball in a TT stroke.

Also, not sure of your analysis, that followthrough looks pretty good. And the most important part, how she pops into the ball with her whole body, that looks like excellent timing on use of legs, weight transfer, core rotation, upper arm, lower arm, wrist, all popping into the ball together. That is good timing on contact. And her weight transfer is nothing short of amazing. In some of those shots, the amount her hips can be seen moving forward towards the table as she loads the weight from left leg to right leg is rare and how much that transfers power into the ball should not be underestimated. Even in the shot where she is caught off balance with her feet parallel to each other, she still manages to get her hips to move forward as she turns her waste. Really great use of the whole body transferring power into the ball. Pound for pound that is as good as anyone.

So, I would love to see the power of those stokes you have. I think we could all learn something from such good technique.

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totally agree, amazing weight transfer. Her right leg also bends downward at the knee because the weight has been transferred forward and around with her hips, she’s also very low, so her centre of gravity is low.
using the ground as well, when you ‘push’ into the floor, you load your leg muscles and can then explode forward.
When you follow the ball path it’s starts going forward with an upwards arc, then 2/3rds into the flight the topspin really kicks in and the ball is pulled down onto the table, so for a really aggressive hard hit shot there’s still safety there.

IB66 said:

totally agree, amazing weight transfer. Her right leg also bends downward at the knee because the weight has been transferred forward and around with her hips, she’s also very low, so her centre of gravity is low.
using the ground as well, when you ‘push’ into the floor, you load your leg muscles and can then explode forward.
When you follow the ball path it’s starts going forward with an upwards arc, then 2/3rds into the flight the topspin really kicks in and the ball is pulled down onto the table, so for a really aggressive hard hit shot there’s still safety there.

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Yep. 100%. Hard to get people to understand that in their body like that.

I'm like the king of extreme shots hitting at just ok consistency. Actually a coach told me today my shot is really pretty but to take some oomph off of it to raise consistency. Though actually some lazy shots I miss because of not putting in that extra oomph. I gotta find a happy medium.

The stroke is the easy part, consistency is harder, from just playing constantly.

No video though, sorry.

Michael Kitt said:

I'm like the king of extreme shots hitting at just ok consistency. Actually a coach told me today my shot is really pretty but to take some oomph off of it to raise consistency. Though actually some lazy shots I miss because of not putting in that extra oomph. I gotta find a happy medium.

The stroke is the easy part, consistency is harder, from just playing constantly.

No video though, sorry.

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I do love people who say they have more power than a top pro, even if a female pro, and then, won't share their technique so people can see.

I am going to assume it is because the technique is so good you don't want anyone to model your style rather than that it is not as powerful as Hayata's.

The shot itself is not that difficult, it's about consistency... not something to argue about. I'm just saying I can say without question that unboosted H3 cannot top out as fast as T05 and some others. This isn't meant to be about me.