A rubber between MX-P and EL-S

MOG said:

I believe this Der Echte is why I play better with 1.9mm O5fx on my fh. My flat hits are much better and my serves and my pushes.
It is harder to block very hard flat shots back and it is a bit harder to create spin, especially against no spin.
But overall it is better I think.

On FX-S, do you think I would get enough arc out of it on an Ultimate 2 or Force Pro thinnish 7 ply blade.
When I tried it briefly before I felt like it flattened out too much, more than 05fx does.
I love the way 05fx can do little arcy topspins in a way other rubbers can't, not that we actually play this shot more than about once a week.
Hate the butterfly prices though!!

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I use FX-S in 2.1 with OFF minus to middle OFF class wood blades... I can spin or pound it... I usually only hit when I get a dead ball return on serve that comes in a little high. My offensive shots are mostly heavy slow loop, fast loop, power loop, block, defensive topspin, or counter loop. Not much hitting going on with me very often.

I can say personally, I get enough OOMPH outta FX-S... It also gives me the confidence to hit through attacks (with a counter topspin) I think if I use it long enough and develop more consistent timing, that I could again be very well using a middle firm OFF dynamic rubber on FH like MX-K.

I'd rather wait too for mxp booster wearing off.

Michael Kitt said:

The shot itself is not that difficult, it's about consistency... not something to argue about. I'm just saying I can say without question that unboosted H3 cannot top out as fast as T05 and some others. This isn't meant to be about me.

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I guess the main thing is, when you say you have more power than a top pro who is a woman, but you are not willing to post footage of yourself showing it, it does make one wonder whether you have any credibility. To make a statement like that, you should be ready to post the footage.

I am not sure H3 unboosted can have the top end speed of T05 for me either. But someone with good technique may be able to get that out of it. However, isn't H3 designed to be boosted? So, it would make sense that, boosted, you can get more top end power out of it. With the harder sponge, you need to have a deeper impact and a more powerful impact to get top speed out of the sponge. But you also have to have really good technique and the precision to get deep impact without bottoming out. I am pretty confident there are people who can get more out of H3 than me who are, and who are not top pros.

Boosting is said to increase the speed up to 10-15% I believe, which is decent but not that overwhelmingly different. Spin increase is meant to be by about the same amount. Break in time for H3 Nat is longer than any rubber I've used, it's not actually important to boost it but it is important to at least break it in.

I think that a lot of amateurs can hit very hard with H3 as a one off during a rally if the ball happens to be at the right place and they’re in position. Hitting the next ball in the rally with the same quality is close to impossible unless you’re a pro as the speed (and spin) will be like a bazooka.

I’ve only hit the ball a couple of times with RidTheKid’s newly boosted setup (W968 + H3 BS Nat) and it’s extremely different to when it’s not boosted but the speed comes from the full body rotation and not the rubber. He’s able to produce the same type of speed with the same rubber when the booster is gone (it just takes more effort and placement becomes even more important).

My 0.02SEK.

Perhaps you could look into the Ventus series, particularly Super Ventus and Ventus Speed. Ventus Spin feels solid on the FH when paired with Swat(medium stiff 7-ply), despite being 40±3.

virtuososiu said:

Hi Der_Echte

I am intrigued by the FX-S on your forehand. Would you say it does not bottm out like other softer rubbers when hitting? Cause the thing I dislike about rubbers softer thn 45 is that they bottom out when I hit into it with force, losing control.

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Maybe a different perspective (I play short pips), but there is nothing wrong with bottoming out. In fact, you should always bottom out on flat hits, or else you are not swinging hard enough. I feel puny if I don't bottom out.

virtuososiu said:

Hi Der_Echte

I am intrigued by the FX-S on your forehand. Would you say it does not bottm out like other softer rubbers when hitting? Cause the thing I dislike about rubbers softer thn 45 is that they bottom out when I hit into it with force, losing control.

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I do not really flat hit much to know for that shot given the baldes I use it on...

I do feel any softer rubber I use on FH bottom out to a degree on a really powerful counter loop or on my own fast loop. I have zero issues with FX-S doing that. I make a pretty devestating shot with FX-S when opponent gives me the time to take a big whack at the ball.

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Oh boy

Michael Kitt said:

I hit harder than that. I literally put all of my energy into forehand topspin drives, and when tested I had a big upward follow through, while she sort of had a downward follow through, and is also a girl so less capable of harder hitting.

On backhand you can probably forget about matching the speed of many ESN rubbers, that's why they prefer it on forehand.

H3 can be really fast, but I think not top out as fast as T05, 07 Hyper, and some other hard non-chinese rubbers. H3 just offers more control in short game than most fast rubbers.

That said, I don't boost so... results may vary lol

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No, you don't. If you did, in any way that could ever replicate itself in a game, you wouldn't be making some of the comments and asking some of the questions I have seen you post.

Have you ever seen girls of these level play, not just on YouTube, but actually in person? Have you been on the table with them? I can answer yes to both of those questions. Many of them have plenty of power.

As to your question, you not boosting is probably why you had those findings. If you did, your opinion would likely change. But that is if I'm making assumptions about how you play the game.

Michael Kitt said:

The shot itself is not that difficult, it's about consistency... not something to argue about. I'm just saying I can say without question that unboosted H3 cannot top out as fast as T05 and some others. This isn't meant to be about me.

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Ok. Just read the rest of the posts. Lol. What shots were you testing, in what situations, that you based your conclusions upon? Considering some players from the Chinese women's national team were complaining about how much quality and power Hayata had, it's quite a bold claim. I think the first paragraph of martinandersson's post sums this up well. What shots, against what shots, you tested for is relevant information to know when making these equipment assessments.

I'll also go back to my point and ask if you have ever seen players of Hayata's level in person. Not just YouTube. I am not exaggerating when I say that video slows things down by half of how it is in real life.

Again, pro level speed isn't what's meant to be impressive, at least to me. What's impressive is their level of consistency, when going for hard shots very often and landing at a good percentage.

I only tested in practice when being fed easy shots to my forehand. In doing so, using proper technique I could not equal the level is speed with h3 using the same stroke as with T05. I hit probably the hardest in my club of over 100 people, certainly harder than the girls, but either way, it only takes 1 good stroke vs 1 good stroke to compare max speed production.

If I played that girl, who I've never even heard of, she's no Ding Ning, she would crush me, but not because she hits so unbelievably hard...

If I said that I could punch harder than Amanda Nunes, the top ranked female fighter in the world, that must make me crazy too. There is a limit to how hard they can hit. The technique of hitting a ball with full speed while incorporating brush is not that hard a concept. Anyone can do it once in a blue moon with a little training. When a guy finally lands it, it's going to be more lethal.

This is simple logic...

Michael Kitt said:

Again, pro level speed isn't what's meant to be impressive, at least to me. What's impressive is their level of consistency, when going for hard shots very often and landing at a good percentage.

I only tested in practice when being fed easy shots to my forehand. In doing so, using proper technique I could not equal the level is speed with h3 using the same stroke as with T05. I hit probably the hardest in my club, certainly harder than the girls, but either way, it only takes 1 good stroke vs 1 good stroke to compare max speed production.

If I played that girl, who I've never even heard of, she's no Ding Ning, she would crush me, but not because she hits so unbelievably hard...

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Yes, their level of consistency is very impressive as well. But to say that you hit harder than her means there are two possibilities: you actually do, and are an amazing player who is probably highly qualified to comment on these things, or, you are sorely mistaken and likely spreading misinformation.

Being fed easy shots doesn't give a very complete picture of a rubbers capabilities. Different rubbers will perform differently with lots of speed and spin incoming, likewise, the lack thereof will also affect rubbers differently. Due to it's sponge, H3 is less likely to top out than T05 when a strong incoming ball is coming in. Especially when boosted.

She's no Ding Ning? Nobody is. But she is a top player in the world who has beaten players of Ding Ning's level on multiple occasions, and has one of, if not, the highest winrates against the Chinese National Team of any other player in the world. You are right, she wouldn't need to hit hard to beat you because the point would be over before an opportunity even arose. But if it somehow did, she would absolutely have you running after the ball to the barriers. You say she wouldn't, so I ask again, have you ever seen or been on the table with these players live? I have. If you haven't, I wonder how you can make this claim, which is really hurting your credibility before you've even really gotten started...

Michael Kitt said:

Again, pro level speed isn't what's meant to be impressive, at least to me. What's impressive is their level of consistency, when going for hard shots very often and landing at a good percentage.

I only tested in practice when being fed easy shots to my forehand. In doing so, using proper technique I could not equal the level is speed with h3 using the same stroke as with T05. I hit probably the hardest in my club of over 100 people, certainly harder than the girls, but either way, it only takes 1 good stroke vs 1 good stroke to compare max speed production.

If I played that girl, who I've never even heard of, she's no Ding Ning, she would crush me, but not because she hits so unbelievably hard...

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One of the things that seems funny to me here, and I will leave out some of the bigger stuff....is that, it seems you are under the impression that you would use the same technique for T05 and H3. The two rubbers, to get the max out of each, you would need completely different kinds of contact. Which is also why it is not so easy for a lot of players to make the switch a rubber like T05 to a rubber like H3.

zyu81 said:

Different rubbers will perform differently with lots of speed and spin incoming, likewise, the lack thereof will also affect rubbers differently. Due to it's sponge, H3 is less likely to top out than T05 when a strong incoming ball is coming in. Especially when boosted.

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This is really a great point.

Switching from h3 to T05 takes very little adjustment. For drives you can generally use the same stroke and T05 will accept it.

Switching from T05 to H3, the H3 might not accept your stroke previously used for T05.

Michael Kitt said:

If I said that I could punch harder than Amanda Nunes, the top ranked female fighter in the world, that must make me crazy too. There is a limit to how hard they can hit. The technique of hitting a ball with full speed while incorporating brush is not that hard a concept. Anyone can do it once in a blue moon with a little training. When a guy finally lands it, it's going to be more lethal.

This is simple logic...

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I am no MMA expert but I believe that looping a ball is much more abstract, and has lots more variables involved when it comes to the strength of the human and the strength of the ball that that human can loop. There are plenty of extremely physically strong top players who, despite being highly trained and a high level, do not loop purely as hard as a scrawny fellow.

So if you think this stuff is really simple logic, I will ask again if you have ever actually been on the table, or at the least seen in person, people who are able to do the things that you are speaking about. I believe that if you have, you would not think that the strongest person off the table will necessary have a stronger loop than a weaker counterpart, given that they both "incorporate" brush. Or that it is "not a hard concept".