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  1. WiWa is offline
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    #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Abakus
    I didn't mean it's against the rule, that's why I said "somehow". You can still respect someone without shaking hands, but because this "shaking hands-ritual" became a sign of respect (for me at least), it comes rude to me. So, as long as someone doesn't really show his disrespect (e.g. by using swearwords), everything is alright in my point of view.
    I understand. But as said, handshaking maybe doesn't have the value to them that it has to us. Would Asians think Boll is rude if he doesn't give a diplomacy point? I think it is a bit of a grey area. Because we are all so used to handshaking, it upsets us if somebody doesn't do it. But like Carl explained, the robotic handshake isn't really a sign of respect either, especially the way the CNT members usually do this. And they don't do the 'lame no-look handshake' out of disrespect. They do the same to their coaches after a match, and teammates after a team match. It is all just not as excessive as Europeans tend to do, but that doesn't make them worse than others in terms of being respectful.

    So in the end the discussion is more about breaking a habit of handshaking than showing disrespect by not giving a handshake, since handshaking doesn't really show respect in much occasions anyway.

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    #42
    Quote Originally Posted by WiWa
    I understand. But as said, handshaking maybe doesn't have the value to them that it has to us. Would Asians think Boll is rude if he doesn't give a diplomacy point? I think it is a bit of a grey area. Because we are all so used to handshaking, it upsets us if somebody doesn't do it. But like Carl explained, the robotic handshake isn't really a sign of respect either, especially the way the CNT members usually do this. And they don't do the 'lame no-look handshake' out of disrespect. They do the same to their coaches after a match, and teammates after a team match. It is all just not as excessive as Europeans tend to do, but that doesn't make them worse than others in terms of being respectful.

    So in the end the discussion is more about breaking a habit of handshaking than showing disrespect by not giving a handshake, since handshaking doesn't really show respect in much occasions anyway.
    Well said. Great post Wiwa.
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    #43
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybelafonte
    Well said sir!
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Horowitz
    Well said. Great post Wiwa.
    Thanks guys

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    #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Horowitz
    Hey, Anders, I respect your opinion and I know that there are so many people on this forum who agree with you that a handshake after a match is important. I just don't see that it is. I think it is a formality that is too rigid. I personally feel that the person who won the match probably does not care either way because he won. I have never felt like I did not want to shake the hand of someone who I just won a match from. And, in my opinion, if you have to shake hands after a match no matter what, it does not mean anything; it is just a formality. So, I feel, rather than having it be some compulsory act that then loses its meaning, the person who lost should actually be the one who decides whether to do it, and then, you would see some handshakes that really meant something.

    There are times when I have lost a match where I didn't feel like there is a need or a point in giving the other person a handshake. And it might not have anything to do with the opponent. There are times when I don't want to shake the other person's hand and it definitely has to do with the opponent or something he did in the match. And there are times where I want to shake the other person's hand because they played great and I want to let them know I feel that way. In only one of those circumstances, the last one, would the handshake actually have real meaning.

    So why should it be compulsory.

    But every so often you see someone who is so upset that they lose touch with where they are and what they are doing. Not to be sexist or anything but I see this happen with women more often than with men. I think this is may be because for women it is more socially acceptable for them to be in touch with their feelings and express those kinds of emotions. I think, for men, often crying or being upset is really looked down upon and as a result most men, when they are feeling any other negative emotion, it ends up expressing itself as anger instead of the actual underlying emotion. That is often what happens when you try to suppress a heavy, negative emotion: it comes out as anger. But every so often you see someone, or have to deal with someone, who is so upset that they are not grounded and not in touch with where they are.

    If that is what is going on inside someone, I don't think they need to shake my hand after a match. I am sorry but I think the hand shake thing is way out of proportion to so many TT fans. After a basketball game, some of the guys from one team and the other shake each other's hands. Not always. Sometimes they just head to the locker rooms. After a baseball game it is rare that the two teams greet each other at all. After an American football game, sometimes the head coaches shake each other's hands, not always; sometimes some of the players greet some of the guys on the other team who they know and like, not always.

    Why should it be mandatory in Table Tennis. I really don't get the idea of repeating what sometimes comes out as a hollow gesture. I think a handshake should happen when it is felt by both players, and therefore conveys actual affection and acknowledgement of an achievement from the defeated player to the victor. I actually, personally think that it shows less respect to shake someone's hand when you don't mean it, than to choose not to shake the other person's hand.
    Carl, as a friend and a fellow forumer, I respect your posts. But I simply just can't agree with you on this issue. And I am NOT saying this as a TT-Fan as you intended, but as a player. I play national and regional tournaments at least 2 times per month, and I practise hard every day both on my physical skills and on my TT-skills. I understand Zhang Jike that he might have been mentally in another world. But he still has to show Ma Long some respect by shaking hands with him. Or at least show the world that he has respect for Ma Long, it is a sign of good sportsmanship.

    I get what your saying, and it isn't nonsense, I think your'e a smart person. But I can't agree with you and I am sorry for that. The handshake is important to show personal mental strength and to show the other player the respect of the game. You don't have to say anything to him, just shake his hand and thats it.

    That is my opinion, and I hope you get what I mean. Even if you don't agree
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    #45
    Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster
    Everything said and done, I believe when somebody is so passionate about the game he or she can cross the line in a moment of fury ( which I believe to be true , ZJK was madly angry with himself because he was completely outplayed ) . I believe everybody at some point in time has been guilty of this.
    Especially, in case of persons who grow up into professionals , they have so less time and focus outside the sports it becomes the be all and end all. Take the case of Federer, he was bratty when he was growing into the legend he is now.
    Its more important to see if ZJK learns from this and makes sure he does not repeat this. But come on, we have seen much worse behavior from other people.
    Well said mate; he's young and he will regret it no doubt, the trouble is he has a history of doing this. Hopefully he will grow up and start acting like a man. If these two players keep trying hard they will take this game stratospheric. All praise to China and bring on the Olympics!

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    #46
    What a DISRESPECT!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Anders
    Carl, as a friend and a fellow forumer, I respect your posts. But I simply just can't agree with you on this issue. And I am NOT saying this as a TT-Fan as you intended, but as a player. I play national and regional tournaments at least 2 times per month, and I practise hard every day both on my physical skills and on my TT-skills. I understand Zhang Jike that he might have been mentally in another world. But he still has to show Ma Long some respect by shaking hands with him. Or at least show the world that he has respect for Ma Long, it is a sign of good sportsmanship.

    I get what your saying, and it isn't nonsense, I think your'e a smart person. But I can't agree with you and I am sorry for that. The handshake is important to show personal mental strength and to show the other player the respect of the game. You don't have to say anything to him, just shake his hand and thats it.

    That is my opinion, and I hope you get what I mean. Even if you don't agree
    Fair enough. I can respect how you feel and we can feel differently. You are one of the people on the forum whose opinions I value and appreciate and I am confident that, in your participation in the sport, you have your reasons for this opinion.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 03-03-2012 at 01:46 AM.
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    #48
    ths is the bitter sirde of Zhang....

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    #49
    Well, for some reasons shakehanding is already like a ritual and no heart. I think it is better not to shakehands than shakehands with angry heart behind

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    #50
    I agree with the people saying "You guys are making a big deal out of this."

    It's true. This issue is something really small actually.
    Oh yeah, he was seriously affected with that loss he forgot to shake hands. He clarified that already, he even apologized to Ma Long publicly now but of course it has a different take on the fans.. Anyway, we all know they're all very close to each other like brothers so it doesn't really make a lot of difference to them, they're gonna be all good afterwards, no hard feelings, but to the people and the critics, there will be. Too bad on Zhang but honestly, go inside the athlete's head, i mean, to them, it doesn't really matter what people might say. They're just focused on the game and the training. People, this is the sports world. Yeah, so it doesn't really make a lot of difference. Liu Guoliang might be saying something like "Who cares about who shakes or doesn't shake hands, go back to training, all of you!"
    Last edited by TableOhTennis; 03-03-2012 at 06:31 AM.
    I totally missed this! Okay, let me explain first! Haha! I was in Singapore for vacation and then school started last June so I was really, really busy and I haven't got time for this. I'm so sorry! Okay, I promise to update at least once a week , okay?

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    #51
    Good point ToT, I don't think Ma Long himself will feel offended at all. He knows that ZJK is a friend of his, and that he can act weird sometimes

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  12. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #52
    And I don't think Zhang Jike was showing disrespect as some of you seem to feel. I think he was not paying attention to anything around him after the match. In that interview he had no problems saying how well Ma Long was playing. He had no problem giving Ma Long respect after the match in a different context.

    I do think it is strange when people think that a custom they think shows respect is something that everyone else has to feel shows respect. To some people shaking hands after a match seems to be a sign of showing respect. To me, I see it as something that is often a hollow ritual. I don't see it as always showing respect. I feel like I have seen some disrespectful handshakes. I would rather the players show respect for each other in what ever way they do, without me having to impose my ritual for showing respect on everyone else.

    Ma Long did appear to expect a handshake. But he did not seem truly fussed about the situation.

    In some cultures a common greeting and sign of respect is to bow to each other on meeting or departing. In some cultures giving this fake kiss on each cheek where you don't actually touch the person with your lips is a common greeting and parting. If I somehow thought that this was a sign of respect and wanted everyone to kiss on each cheek after every match because I thought it was a sign of respect, and someone else did not do it and thought it was stupid, dorky and creepy and that kissing on the cheek did not show respect, and therefore didn't do it, I do think it would be a bit strange for people to be up in arms because a player did not show his opponent the proper respect by kissing him on the cheek the way they thought the player should.

    Cultural values are not universal and to try and impose them as though they are is a little much in my opinion.

    And again, in this instance, I don't think Zhang Jike was fully present at the end of that match. So I don't think he skipped the silly kiss on the cheek (the handshake) because he was trying to be disrespectful to Ma Long. If that was the case, it might not be cool. But I don't think it was the case. And if it was the case I don't think he would have been as comfortable showing respect to Ma Long after the match by saying how well he played.

    So if the issue is showing respect, Zhang Jike did that in his own way at some point after the match was over. And he did explain why the handshake never happened at the end of the match.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 03-03-2012 at 11:58 AM.
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    #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Anders
    Carl, as a friend and a fellow forumer, I respect your posts. But I simply just can't agree with you on this issue. And I am NOT saying this as a TT-Fan as you intended, but as a player. I play national and regional tournaments at least 2 times per month, and I practise hard every day both on my physical skills and on my TT-skills. I understand Zhang Jike that he might have been mentally in another world. But he still has to show Ma Long some respect by shaking hands with him. Or at least show the world that he has respect for Ma Long, it is a sign of good sportsmanship.

    I get what your saying, and it isn't nonsense, I think your'e a smart person. But I can't agree with you and I am sorry for that. The handshake is important to show personal mental strength and to show the other player the respect of the game. You don't have to say anything to him, just shake his hand and thats it.

    That is my opinion, and I hope you get what I mean. Even if you don't agree
    I'm with Anders. Even if handshaking didn't mean that much, NOT handshaking is poor and disrespectful.
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    #54
    He has apologised ,good talking point and publicity ......lots.... lets move on....

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    #55
    Personally is it bad sportsmanship? Yes absolutely. Is it reason to pass judgment on a high class player? No. We don't know what's going on in the guy's mind what may be distracting him or even how much this will affect his chances of going to the Olympics. Let's be honest. If you just won the World Championships and World Cup and you just needed the Olympics to secure your place in history, you'd have a lot going through your mind. He's got a lot of pressure on him to do well even more than Ma Long because Ma Long has a ways to go before he's getting his Grand Slam. Zhang Ji Ke has a ton of weight on his shoulders and he may see his dream slip through his fingers. Most of the players who've won their Grand Slams did it young in their careers. He'll be pushing 26-27 at his next Olympics chance if he's not able to play this year. So no I won't be passing judgment on the guy.

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    #56
    Could not agree with you more on this one Richard. We all know, getting all worked up is the only way Zhang Jike knows to bring out the best in himself, and he got caught up in the moment . And as Carl said , its bad when you are losing 12-10 , 11-9 , 11-9 ... etc . And he did apologise publicly , how many times have you seen pro players do that? Did Serena Williams apologise unconditionally for the Line Judge incident or MCnroe for his countless antics for that matter ?
    I am not supporting the behavior , but I think overall you need to understand that he was in a super high pressure situation , and losing to the same guy in the finals over and over again brings out the worst in people .. remember Federer cry in Australian Open ? Not every man can do that and get away with it. I bet we would have started trashing him if he broke down in tears; also imagine the psychological boost Ma Long would have got in that case.
    So over all , I personally think, yes he did wrong and apologized and that should be the end of it , unless he keeps repeating this. I have seen Peter Korbel behave far worse with the umpires ( irrespective of whether he had a point or not ) and not apologize for it, and I am sure there have been other incidents which are worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. RicharD
    Personally is it bad sportsmanship? Yes absolutely. Is it reason to pass judgment on a high class player? No. We don't know what's going on in the guy's mind what may be distracting him or even how much this will affect his chances of going to the Olympics. Let's be honest. If you just won the World Championships and World Cup and you just needed the Olympics to secure your place in history, you'd have a lot going through your mind. He's got a lot of pressure on him to do well even more than Ma Long because Ma Long has a ways to go before he's getting his Grand Slam. Zhang Ji Ke has a ton of weight on his shoulders and he may see his dream slip through his fingers. Most of the players who've won their Grand Slams did it young in their careers. He'll be pushing 26-27 at his next Olympics chance if he's not able to play this year. So no I won't be passing judgment on the guy.
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  17. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #57
    Quote Originally Posted by PingPongPom
    I'm with Anders. Even if handshaking didn't mean that much, NOT handshaking is poor and disrespectful.
    You know what, Matt, I really respect both Anders and you so I am going to concede that you have a real point. I don't play at that level but I know it has been turned into a real tradition so I know I would follow the tradition and do the prescribed thing.

    I just really don't know ZJK was fully cognizant of what was going on. He did not shake anyone's hand. Not the judges. They do that too.

    He was up 9-8 in the first and lost 11-9; he was up 10-8 in the second and lost 12-10; in the third @ deuce he dealt an easy serve and then misread Ma Long's serve at 11-10 and put it into the net. I am betting he thought he should have been able to pull out one of those games. Then in the 4th he was down 4-2 and he backed Ma Long up and had him on defense and blew the point. From then on it is not the same ZJK. He does not appear to be fully on the court.

    Now with someone who is fully sane I still might say, "so what." But you have to admit, ZJK is not fully sane. I am not sure what that entails but I am willing to cut him some slack. I personally don't think he meant to disrespect anyone and I think his apology after and his complementing Ma Long on how well he is playing make me think something internal was going on for him that most of us might not be able to understand.

    Now I have seen ZJK do some things that were not all that cool. I just am not sure he was all there at the end of this match. Therefore, I am willing to cut him some slack. But I get that at that level of play it has been established as what you should do at the end of a match.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 03-04-2012 at 07:54 PM.
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    #58
    I saw the entire match live on the telly, and I was really shocked. Pre occupied assessing his match or doing it on purpose, or just too annoyed with himself, a player must always shake the hands of his opponents. ZJK will not be great without his great opponents, and same goes to Ma Long, and to all of us too. Rugby players shake hands after kicking, hitting, punching etc etc their opponents.

    I have never seen such acts from a top pro. I thought ZJK would walk over to Ma Long's corner to shake his hands, but he never did. Imagine Federer just walking over to his seat after losing a match.
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    #59
    I must say that i agree with both you Anders and you Carl.

    I can see that ZJK must have been dissapointed after loosing this match because he really had his chances. And the handshake probably doesn't mean as much to them as it does to us. So i don't think that Ma Long was offended by it. But i do think that ZJK on purpose didn't do it. When we look as his history we have seen him done some wierd things, and this is probably one of them. I could never imagine myself not shaking hands after a match, because as you say Carl it is a ritual.

    That ZJK have been apologizing later is probably, something he has been told to do. These superstars must have some guys who helps them to confront the press, and give them a good image. So i guess that it would have been best if ZJK had shaken Ma Longs hand, maybe not because it means a lot to Ma Long or ZJK but it means something for everybody and especially the younger ones (me) watching the sport on the television. Because many of the childrens will sit and watch their favorite player, and they will see that the top players shows some respect to the opponent and to the game.
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    #60
    At this year's Swedish open, when Fang Bo won against Tang Peng, they didn't shake hands either.
    No big deal. They both just avoided each other, went to all umpires to shake hands and that's all
    And no big topic about it.. no big deal .. lol ..

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