CNT's Mock Olympics

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ML is coming back to fitness and form, but still he only just got past WCQ. Apparently both ML and XX will be 31 by the time of next Olympics (July 21), so it's hard to believe that China won't make some use of the dynamic younger players, WCQ, LJK and LGY.
 
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So good to see a healthy and fit ML on action again. He played very well both his doubles and singles match today.
The dictator still dictates :D
 
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Very nice seeing all these top athletes in actions, shame it's over. Might not have this opportunity for a while to see this.

Hopefully if things are safe ITTF can organise some hubs remotely somewhere and have competition resume. Work out point system and play out few competions over a period of a month or two. If that can happen before end of year would be a success to what has been a horrible year.
 
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Miyazaki: Am I a joke to you?
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If Harimoto were to play 2 singles, that means they give up the doubles.
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Japan is in a dilemma here. Lefty is beneficial, but lefties are detrimental.
 
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[size=+1]In the deaden world, the sport is dead too[/size]
Luckily, Sputnik-V vaccine is underway. Russia to re-open all sport activities by the end of 2020.

/Be happy/
 
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strange line up for team 2. There is no reason for Lin to play 2 singles matches. he is the weak player of the team. He has no chances against fan or ma

Looks like a typical CNT propaganda move to boost the ego of the main team... on a more serious note, this will defy explanation if LGY loses to FZD as well...

I have a guess as to a possible reason for playing LGY for 2 singles that doesn't involve Team 2 tanking the team match. Haha.
Note that in ABC v XYZ, the lineups are as follows:
  • 1st Match B/C vs Y/Z (Doubles)
  • 2nd Match A vs X (1st Singles)
  • 3rd Match C vs Z (2nd Singles)
  • 4th Match A vs Y (3rd Singles)
  • 5th Match B vs X (4th Singles)
1. Since Team 2 got the XYZ combination, the player who plays 2 singles will play the 2nd and the 5th match as compared to the ABC combination where the player who plays 2 singles will play the 2nd and 4th match. If Team 2 truly believes that LGY is their weakest link as compared to LJK and WCQ, then it makes sense to "hide" LGY by letting him play two singles in the X position since he will only have to play his 2nd singles match if the team match goes to the decider. This allows WCQ and LJK to play in the first 3 of 4 matches of the team tie. I think if Team 2 got the ABC Combination, there's a good chance LGY would have played doubles as the B position since he would only have to play the last match if the team tie goes to the decider.

2. Team 2 can pretty much predict Team 1's lineup. XX/ML usually play doubles and FZD plays 2 singles. ML almost always plays the 3rd match as the C/Z player because you generally want him playing singles ahead of XX. Therefore, if Team 2 can make an educated guess as to Team 1's likely lineup, they can adjust their lineup so that their players can best match up to Team 1's lineup. Let's assume Team 2 predicts Team 1's lineup as follows:
  • 1st Match- ML/XX vs Y/Z
  • 2nd Match- FZD vs X
  • 3rd Match- ML vs Z
  • 4th Match- FZD vs Y
  • 5th Match- XX vs X
What would be the best lineup considering matchups and H2H records?
LGY has a poor record vs ML. In 4 ITTF matches, he lost them all to ML including 4-0 losses in their last 3 encounters. However, LGY has a 50% win rate against XX in ITTF matches and a 30% win rate against FZD in ITTF matches, including winning 2 of the last 3 matches against FZD. While he's still an underdog against all of them, stats show LGY has his chances against XX and FZD but is outmatched by ML, so playing him as the X player makes sense.

WCQ, on the other hand, actually has losing records against both FZD (1W 4L) and XX (0W 2L) and a winning record against ML (2W 1L). While he's definitely more than capable of playing 2 singles given his recent form, past results do show that among the 3 players on Team 2, he's probably the most comfortable playing against ML. This makes the Z position ideal for him. Had he been the X position and played 2 singles, he would have no chance to play ML and would end up playing FZD and XX, both of whom he has losing records against. Being the Z player also ensures that no matter what, he will play 2 matches in the team tie (1st and 3rd matches), so if Team 2 views him as their best player, they would at least be sure to get 2 matches out of him.

LJK, being a right-hander, is pretty much sure to play doubles in a team with 2 other lefties. The only choice to be made is if he plays the Y or Z position. If Y, he plays FZD and if Z, he plays ML. LJK has come close but hasn't beaten ML yet. On the other hand, while LJK has a losing record against FZD, he has beaten Fan in 3 of their last 4 encounters. Therefore, the Y position fits LJK.

Obviously, the strategy didn't work and team 2 still lost, but maybe Team 1 is just that much better. In hindsight, it's easy to see that ML was nearly unstoppable yesterday, so maybe it might have been better to "sacrifice" LGY against ML in the 3rd match since neither LJK nor WCQ could probably have beaten ML yesterday given ML's amazing form. In hindsight, maybe Team 2 might have done better with WCQ playing 2 singles. However, all things considered, I think Team 2's lineup yesterday had merits and was definitely a valid strategy against the Team 1 favorites.
 
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I have a guess as to a possible reason for playing LGY for 2 singles that doesn't involve Team 2 tanking the team match. Haha.
Note that in ABC v XYZ, the lineups are as follows:
  • 1st Match B/C vs Y/Z (Doubles)
  • 2nd Match A vs X (1st Singles)
  • 3rd Match C vs Z (2nd Singles)
  • 4th Match A vs Y (3rd Singles)
  • 5th Match B vs X (4th Singles)
1. Since Team 2 got the XYZ combination, the player who plays 2 singles will play the 2nd and the 5th match as compared to the ABC combination where the player who plays 2 singles will play the 2nd and 4th match. If Team 2 truly believes that LGY is their weakest link as compared to LJK and WCQ, then it makes sense to "hide" LGY by letting him play two singles in the X position since he will only have to play his 2nd singles match if the team match goes to the decider. This allows WCQ and LJK to play in the first 3 of 4 matches of the team tie. I think if Team 2 got the ABC Combination, there's a good chance LGY would have played doubles as the B position since he would only have to play the last match if the team tie goes to the decider.

2. Team 2 can pretty much predict Team 1's lineup. XX/ML usually play doubles and FZD plays 2 singles. ML almost always plays the 3rd match as the C/Z player because you generally want him playing singles ahead of XX. Therefore, if Team 2 can make an educated guess as to Team 1's likely lineup, they can adjust their lineup so that their players can best match up to Team 1's lineup. Let's assume Team 2 predicts Team 1's lineup as follows:
  • 1st Match- ML/XX vs Y/Z
  • 2nd Match- FZD vs X
  • 3rd Match- ML vs Z
  • 4th Match- FZD vs Y
  • 5th Match- XX vs X
What would be the best lineup considering matchups and H2H records?
LGY has a poor record vs ML. In 4 ITTF matches, he lost them all to ML including 4-0 losses in their last 3 encounters. However, LGY has a 50% win rate against XX in ITTF matches and a 30% win rate against FZD in ITTF matches, including winning 2 of the last 3 matches against FZD. While he's still an underdog against all of them, stats show LGY has his chances against XX and FZD but is outmatched by ML, so playing him as the X player makes sense.

WCQ, on the other hand, actually has losing records against both FZD (1W 4L) and XX (0W 2L) and a winning record against ML (2W 1L). While he's definitely more than capable of playing 2 singles given his recent form, past results do show that among the 3 players on Team 2, he's probably the most comfortable playing against ML. This makes the Z position ideal for him. Had he been the X position and played 2 singles, he would have no chance to play ML and would end up playing FZD and XX, both of whom he has losing records against. Being the Z player also ensures that no matter what, he will play 2 matches in the team tie (1st and 3rd matches), so if Team 2 views him as their best player, they would at least be sure to get 2 matches out of him.

LJK, being a right-hander, is pretty much sure to play doubles in a team with 2 other lefties. The only choice to be made is if he plays the Y or Z position. If Y, he plays FZD and if Z, he plays ML. LJK has come close but hasn't beaten ML yet. On the other hand, while LJK has a losing record against FZD, he has beaten Fan in 3 of their last 4 encounters. Therefore, the Y position fits LJK.

Obviously, the strategy didn't work and team 2 still lost, but maybe Team 1 is just that much better. In hindsight, it's easy to see that ML was nearly unstoppable yesterday, so maybe it might have been better to "sacrifice" LGY against ML in the 3rd match since neither LJK nor WCQ could probably have beaten ML yesterday given ML's amazing form. In hindsight, maybe Team 2 might have done better with WCQ playing 2 singles. However, all things considered, I think Team 2's lineup yesterday had merits and was definitely a valid strategy against the Team 1 favorites.

Thanks for the detailed analysis. I understood the strategy when I saw the full pairings. The problem is that you need to get your best player in singles in early (Liang) and I guess his being the only righty in the team made him hard to fit into the dual match slot. But delaying him until the 4th pairing means you needed an advantage in one of the top 3 pairings. Maybe given how well Ma Long was playing, Liang would have made no difference but Liang needed to play his singles match early no matter what one feels about LGY. But I agree that the alternative pairing was logical but only if you really believe that was the best doubles team. Never build a pairing that leaves your best player never playing his singles match.

Basically I am saying that Liang should have played Ma no matter what they felt his chances were. Maybe there was an issue not publicly known.
 
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Miyazaki: Am I a joke to you?
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If Harimoto were to play 2 singles, that means they give up the doubles.
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Japan is in a dilemma here. Lefty is beneficial, but lefties are detrimental.

Wells, Harimoto has not really proven himself capable of scoring two points in team tournaments against non-Chinese opponents so I'm sure they can afford to make him play doubles (granted he's not great in that either) and make the line-up more 'flexible'.

Team World Cup 2018: Harimoto 2-3 Lee Sangsu (SKorea), Harimoto 0-3 Wong Chun Ting (HK)
WTTTC 2018: Harimoto 2-3 Jeong Youngsik (SKorea)
Team World Cup 2019: Harimoto 2-3 Liam Pitchford (Eng)
Asian Championships 2019: Harimoto 0-3 Gnanasekaran Sathiyan (Ind)

Losing the doubles will already be disappointing (even if it was expected) but throwing the doubles by pairing two lefties is potentially demoralising. Considering doubles is the first match, being trampled on (referencing Hong Kong Open 2019 in which Mizutani/Niwa could not even get past the first preliminary round) at the start will likely leave a bitter taste in their mouths and shake their confidence in the subsequent matches. Not to mention the extreme stress placed on Harimoto to win two singles who again isn't known for his resilience.

Let's face it, the Japanese men's team is in a precarious position, so they can't be choosy and needs to win every match they can. Plan B will start with ML/XX humiliating the hell out of Mizutani/Niwa, considering Mizutani has not been training with his teammates. Plan A is the only viable option in my opinion.
 
Wells, Harimoto has not really proven himself capable of scoring two points in team tournaments against non-Chinese opponents so I'm sure they can afford to make him play doubles (granted he's not great in that either) and make the line-up more 'flexible'.

Team World Cup 2018: Harimoto 2-3 Lee Sangsu (SKorea), Harimoto 0-3 Wong Chun Ting (HK)
WTTTC 2018: Harimoto 2-3 Jeong Youngsik (SKorea)
Team World Cup 2019: Harimoto 2-3 Liam Pitchford (Eng)
Asian Championships 2019: Harimoto 0-3 Gnanasekaran Sathiyan (Ind)

Losing the doubles will already be disappointing (even if it was expected) but throwing the doubles by pairing two lefties is potentially demoralising. Considering doubles is the first match, being trampled on (referencing Hong Kong Open 2019 in which Mizutani/Niwa could not even get past the first preliminary round) at the start will likely leave a bitter taste in their mouths and shake their confidence in the subsequent matches. Not to mention the extreme stress placed on Harimoto to win two singles who again isn't known for his resilience.

Let's face it, the Japanese men's team is in a precarious position, so they can't be choosy and needs to win every match they can. Plan B will start with ML/XX humiliating the hell out of Mizutani/Niwa, considering Mizutani has not been training with his teammates. Plan A is the only viable option in my opinion.

Honestly, I can't see any reallistic way for the Japanese men's team to scrounge together 3 wins other than winning doubles and 2 wins from Harimoto.

The problem is that I don't really see Koki Niwa or Jun Mizutani beating any of the 3 Chinese Players in a singles match. Maybe the only outside chance is Koki Niwa against XX, just because it is such a weird matchup playstyle wise.

So even though Harimoto might not really be seen as dependable to take away 2 wins, they pretty much have to bank on it, since he's the only realistic chance of any wins in the singles games.

The problem is that the levels between the 2 teams is so far apart, that Japan doesn't have an option of trying to create favourable matchups, there are no favourable matchups combinations for them.

It's really about creating the most variance, where doubles is inherently unpredictable, and Harimoto stands the best chance of creating upsets. In this case, the undependability of Harimoto is almost an asset, because if the predictable happens, they will lose.
 
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Honestly, I can't see any reallistic way for the Japanese men's team to scrounge together 3 wins other than winning doubles and 2 wins from Harimoto.

The problem is that I don't really see Koki Niwa or Jun Mizutani beating any of the 3 Chinese Players in a singles match. Maybe the only outside chance is Koki Niwa against XX, just because it is such a weird matchup playstyle wise.

So even though Harimoto might not really be seen as dependable to take away 2 wins, they pretty much have to bank on it, since he's the only realistic chance of any wins in the singles games.

The problem is that the levels between the 2 teams is so far apart, that Japan doesn't have an option of trying to create favourable matchups, there are no favourable matchups combinations for them.

It's really about creating the most variance, where doubles is inherently unpredictable, and Harimoto stands the best chance of creating upsets. In this case, the undependability of Harimoto is almost an asset, because if the predictable happens, they will lose.

To be a bit imaginative, Lord Mizutani has a chance as well. It is a tiny chance but he has a victory over Xu Xin and can play at the relevant level.
 
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I think all teams against China in a team event have say 10%-slim chance, so my opinion go with what you think is best, you have nothing to lose and honestly not expected to win 3 games.

Jun Mizutani for team Japan at Rio in a way a success getting Silver, took 1 game away CNT.

If I was coach it put Niwa/Mizutani in doubles and back myself with Harimoto against FZD. Again nothing to lose and showing faith in Tomokazu who is future of the team, however if decide play him in doubles that's also fine.
 
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I think all teams against China in a team event have say 10%-slim chance, so my opinion go with what you think is best, you have nothing to lose and honestly not expected to win 3 games.

Jun Mizutani for team Japan at Rio in a way a success getting Silver, took 1 game away CNT.

If I was coach it put Niwa/Mizutani in doubles and back myself with Harimoto against FZD. Again nothing to lose and showing faith in Tomokazu who is future of the team, however if decide play him in doubles that's also fine.

I think the greater concern is if they can survive to even meet China with the proposed format of going into every stage with only four matches that they have any chances of winning. Call me pessimistic but Mizutani/Niwa seems like a recipe for disaster not because they are both lefties but mainly that neither has killer shots so their pairing still retains their individual weakness. Again, I have serious reservations about potentially starting every stage with a loss. That said, if they do manage to reach the finals after surmounting all the difficulties along the way, it could do wonders to their resilience.
 
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To be a bit imaginative, Lord Mizutani has a chance as well. It is a tiny chance but he has a victory over Xu Xin and can play at the relevant level.

Which earns him a stare down from Ma Long.

2_640_420.jpg
 
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I think the greater concern is if they can survive to even meet China with the proposed format of going into every stage with only four matches that they have any chances of winning. Call me pessimistic but Mizutani/Niwa seems like a recipe for disaster not because they are both lefties but mainly that neither has killer shots so their pairing still retains their individual weakness. Again, I have serious reservations about potentially starting every stage with a loss. That said, if they do manage to reach the finals after surmounting all the difficulties along the way, it could do wonders to their resilience.

I agree, I said it before.... Ladies CNT #1, Japan #2 then comes a big gap as Hirano & Kasumi I think reliable singles players and Mima pretty solid

Men's however different story. German, Korean teams along with Japan not alot seperating these 3 teams and key rubber eg doubles can be influencing game in outcome of that team tie.

Even Chinese Taipei team with lineup that can unsettle Harimoto might cause trouble. I rate Chinese Taipei doubles team higher and CCY recent record against Harimoto is quite good, Harimoto has struggled in singles against CCY, Def a team that can definately find 3 wins against Japan
 
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Based on their interviews, it seems like even the Japan Team's Olympic players have different ideas on the best strategy with regard to the team lineup.

In an interview, Mizutani seemed to suggest the key to winning matches in the team event is to have Harimoto win both his singles matches and for either him or Niwa to win a singles match. He said:

"In the past, Japan couldn't beat other countries, let alone China, but in the last six years or so, Japan has been practicing with the goal of always winning China. In fact, I feel that the distance from China has been shortened, as I have beaten Chinese players in the Olympics, and recently Tomokazu Harimoto (Kinoshita Group), who ranked 4th in the world ranking, won over Chinese players. As for the Tokyo Olympics, I think it's possible that Harimoto will win a gold medal in his singles. In the team event, (author's note: 1 doubles, 4 singles, 3 battles in advance, 3 teams in each team) there are also several teams that are strong outside of China. If you win, it is assumed that Harimoto will get 2 singles. I think either Niwa(Svenson) or myself takes the singles."

Source: https://2020.yahoo.co.jp/column/detail/202007160005-spnavi?page=2

Harimoto, on the hand, believes winning doubles is important:

Regarding the team event, Harimoto stated with conviction: “The chance of winning the gold medal is higher than in the singles event. I hope the three players can join forces together, along with the head coach and the reserve player, to fight through to the very end. If we can win the first doubles match, our opponents will feel immense pressure, which will give us an advantage in the ensuing singles matches. The key lies in how much pressure we can put on our opponents at the start. If we succeed with this strategy, we will have a good chance of earning the gold medal.

Source: https://tokyo2020.org/en/news/harim...ccontent-tokyo2020_spredfast_na&sf236115813=1

Based on the interviews, it seems Mizutani is more confident in Harimoto's singles abilities than Harimoto himself haha. In my opinion, it's too early to determine what the suitable lineup for the Japanese Men's team right now. A lot can happen in a year. Will Harimoto rapidly develop to the point that he's reliable in singles? Maybe Niwa and Mizutani can make their doubles pairing work and all they need is practice. Or maybe, Harimoto improves his footwork and forehand to a point that he's better at doubles. A lot will also depend on how their rival teams in Korea, Taiwan and Germany progress since their Japan's lineup will likely be determined to best matchup to their rivals' usual lineups.
 
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