Dignics 09c vs hurricane 3

NextLevel said:

Yes, that is what people are talking about.

Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying. A longer backswing should theoretically create a more powerful loop/higher racket speed at ball contact, but there are several tradeoffs to looping that way as well. Recovery time, room for error...so "more efficient" is debatable IMO. It's more situational...I suppose one could even argue a shorter backswing is more efficient...

IB66 said:

Straighter arm, not totally straight or rigid, for want of a better term a flattened out / elongated M shape. So right vertical line is your body, the ‘v’ is shoulder to elbow to wrist and the left vertical line is hand and blade pointing downwards (45ish degrees) and can then be snapped up.
both styles have the similar ‘ M shape’ but the Chinese style is stretched out (but not stretching to full reach) whereas the euro style is more compact.
the arm being slightly straighter also allows the force / power built up during the hip , chest and shoulder turn to be transferred through the arm slightly easier, a more direct path, shallower bends to navigate.
also during the swing they try to relax their arm muscles as much as possible, then when the wrist is snapped it helps to tense the arm muscles, the power is again transferred more efficiently, like a sort of shock wave through the muscles into the blade. Relaxed muscles will absorb the ‘shock wave’. A hammer isn’t made of jelly !!!! A fraction after contact the muscles are relaxed again.
hope this helps !!!!

Click to expand...

Got it, I think I've got the terminology figured out now. I've made a few other posts. Relaxing the arm, building up power from the hip/chest/shoulder and transferring that into the ball are core fundamentals of all types of loops though.

zyu81 said:

Got it, I think I've got the terminology figured out now. I've made a few other posts. Relaxing the arm, building up power from the hip/chest/shoulder and transferring that into the ball are core fundamentals of all types of loops though.

Click to expand...

things are changing, constantly. There definitely was a difference in looping styles between the Far East and Western countries, the lines are now becoming far more blurred especially as westerners can now visit countries like China far more easily than years ago and can train with the Chinese, Korean, Japanese etc players, and take on board the best bits of everyone’s thoughts, philosophies and styles and adapt accordingly.

regarding Ma Long and Timo Boll I feel Ma Longs forehand loop drive is more efficient at producing power, speed of stroke, spin, weight transfer etc, of course Timo Boll is not hitting the ball un-efficiently, all top players have to have great strokes and Timo Bolls is also excellent. Ma long has also had to adapt his game and playing style as his career has progressed, in certain situations he has become more compact as well

the thread had moved onto the speed of the rubbers, whether H3 or D09C was fastest. H3 is a Chinese rubber, in order to release the power and spin capabilities of these rubbers and achieve the highest of its gears you really do need an excellently efficient stroke and be prepared to put in maximum effort, the type of very tacky rubbers used in China has meant, out of necessity, they have had to develop a slightly different technique especially on the forehand side where more power is generally available.
On the backhand side tensor rubbers have been used as the rubber helps produce speed and spin, although some players may be moving back to Chinese rubbers on the backhand side, things change and evolve all the time.

I think the point that the extension of the arm having to do with how much of a backswing the player has time for and that, a player, trained with tacky rubbers like H3 and given extensive hours of training from an early age may tend to do this more frequently and start with the bigger swing a little closer to the table. But when the players are far enough back and taking full looping strokes, the bigger backswing and the fuller arm extension happens to most players.

BTW: MOG, that video of Xu Xin made my day. That guy is just a magician and an artist with the racket.

Waldner despite not being Chinese uses almost a straight arm when swinging and not the type of swing like Timo"s. I think Kreanga does this too.

yogi_bear said:

Waldner despite not being Chinese uses almost a straight arm when swinging and not the type of swing like Timo"s. I think Kreanga does this too.

Click to expand...

I guess training in China is one of the contributing factor

You guys most now that there is no impulse that can be generated by a rubber that can't be generated by another rubber. I will leave it to you to figure out what an impulse is. Basically, different rubbers can generate the same ball trajectory with different strokes.

matzreenzi said:

I guess training in China is one of the contributing factor

Click to expand...

Maybe, but if you look at non-chinese players today, a lot of them do not have "chicken wing arm stroke" of timo boll.

yogi_bear said:

Maybe, but if you look at non-chinese players today, a lot of them do not have "chicken wing arm stroke" of timo boll.

Click to expand...

And then I feel like people take Chinese as Ma Long. What about Liang Jingkun, Zhang Jike and Wang Chuqin. And talk about European, what about Hugo? (Well, he’s literally not European but here is where he trains)

Tango K said:

And then I feel like people take Chinese as Ma Long. What about Liang Jingkun, Zhang Jike and Wang Chuqin. And talk about European, what about Hugo? (Well, he’s literally not European but here is where he trains)

Click to expand...

I usually see them doing chicken wing arm when doing drills but the moment matches are made, the extended arms dominate their strokes especially with ma long and zjk.

It has to do with the distance from the table. In the matches we watch they are very often pushed back from the table and that is when they can do a full stroke.

Ma long does full swings on opening loops vs underspin.

I’m lost in between the chicken and ostrich wings. But watch this one
https://youtu.be/tzHs-7GA4k4

It’s got all, opening, close, far, counter, spin, power loops. In/out positions...

My explanation is that Liang Jingkun (sponsored by Yasaka) is using Rakza Z with sponge recoloured to Blue

(Btw you can just tune it to minute 8.59 and watch the best point. It’s ridiculous!)

brokenball said:

You guys most now that there is no impulse that can be generated by a rubber that can't be generated by another rubber. I will leave it to you to figure out what an impulse is. Basically, different rubbers can generate the same ball trajectory with different strokes.

Click to expand...

I know that trying to learn how to play a sport by breaking down the physics or science of it, is not the way to go.

zyu81 said:

Thanks for clarifying. A longer backswing should theoretically create a more powerful loop/higher racket speed at ball contact, but there are several tradeoffs to looping that way as well. Recovery time, room for error...so "more efficient" is debatable IMO. It's more situational...I suppose one could even argue a shorter backswing is more efficient...

Click to expand...

I don't agree, but the discussion is nuanced. Obviously, Timo Boll is one of the best players in the world, so it is all relative. But I do think that most Europeans are limited in the technical options they can bring to a ball when they need to put it away. Usually, the Koreans and Chinese don't have this problem.

NextLevel said:

I don't agree, but the discussion is nuanced. Obviously, Timo Boll is one of the best players in the world, so it is all relative. But I do think that most Europeans are limited in the technical options they can bring to a ball when they need to put it away. Usually, the Koreans and Chinese don't have this problem.

Click to expand...

Which part do you disagree with? Thinking it over again, depending on how fast you reach maximum bat speed, a longer backswing might not necessarily matter more actually. A lot of putting a ball away has to do with how much you go forward, where you take the ball, etc... I also mean those tradeoffs mentioned are more applicable to regular amateur players, not pro players.

Then again, I do agree that this discussion as a whole in terms of improvement is nearly useless, and will do little to help an amateur player actually improve...just a little bit of theoretical discussion.

zyu81 said:

I know that trying to learn how to play a sport by breaking down the physics or science of it, is not the way to go.

Click to expand...

Maybe not, overall, but it does help many players and coaches to better understand what's happening. Besides, TT is known for the significant amount of Nerds that are fans. A bit like F1 motorsport.

zyu81 said:

Which part do you disagree with? Thinking it over again, depending on how fast you reach maximum bat speed, a longer backswing might not necessarily matter more actually. A lot of putting a ball away has to do with how much you go forward, where you take the ball, etc... I also mean those tradeoffs mentioned are more applicable to regular amateur players, not pro players.

Then again, I do agree that this discussion as a whole in terms of improvement is nearly useless, and will do little to help an amateur player actually improve...just a little bit of theoretical discussion.

Click to expand...

It is easy to talk about in the abstract but if we put Fan Zhendong and Timo Boll side by side on video looping to a block, we can get a better idea of what it means. Nigerians also do straight arm loops with intense forearm snap and of course my biase leads me to believe it is ultimately a more powerful forehand and not that different from the European technique if you don't engage the upper arm too much. I think that as great and fantastic Timo Boll is, he likely is leaving quite a bit on the table with his technique. And I don't think the tradeoff is quite what people think it is. People just assume it is.

I think that in general, the main reason this discussion can help an amateur player is that getting more efficient technique is always relative to yourself. It can give you insight into how to improve your technique under various conditions.

That said, your best forehand is your best forehand no matter how you swing it.

Also, all players use the chicken wing style when the ball is fast into or near their body

NextLevel said:

It is easy to talk about in the abstract but if we put Fan Zhendong and Timo Boll side by side on video looping to a block, we can get a better idea of what it means. Nigerians also do straight arm loops with intense forearm snap and of course my biase leads me to believe it is ultimately a more powerful forehand and not that different from the European technique if you don't engage the upper arm too much. I think that as great and fantastic Timo Boll is, he likely is leaving quite a bit on the table with his technique. And I don't think the tradeoff is quite what people think it is. People just assume it is.

I think that in general, the main reason this discussion can help an amateur player is that getting more efficient technique is always relative to yourself. It can give you insight into how to improve your technique under various conditions.

That said, your best forehand is your best forehand no matter how you swing it.

Click to expand...

I think Boll is the most extreme and obvious example. I'd still say forearm snap is a fundamental part of the loop for most Europeans and Chinese even if Boll doesn't do a ton of it in general. He definitely could be leaving something on the table but it works for him.

Bringing the backswing and hand back "straight arm" definitely has a time and place and it is optimal certain times, no doubt. But I think that perpetuating the idea that it is the only right way gives people the idea they need to do it on every shot to be playing optimally, and that is definitely not the case. There are a lot of situations where you want a shorter backswing. But I could still be missing the point of the discussion since I haven't thought too much into this until now.