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  1. GrayGhost is offline
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    #201
    I don't think D09c and H3 can even be compared. D09c isn't tacky at all and is basically an ultra grippy euro rubber. I used D09c on my FH for about 2 weeks before switching back to H3. I put D09c on my BH and really enjoy the speed and control.

  2. brokenball is offline
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    #202
    Quote Originally Posted by GrayGhost
    I don't think D09c and H3 can even be compared.
    I agree but mostly due to the price difference.

    D09c isn't tacky at all and is basically an ultra grippy euro rubber.
    Tacky rubbers have an advantage when brushing the ball because the ball will grip a little better. However, when I play with new balls with my Rakza 7, which is not tacky, I see no evidence that the ball is sliding on the rubber,

    I used D09c on my FH for about 2 weeks before switching back to H3.
    It doesn't surprise me at all since most of us can hit harder with the FH and don't need the extra speed ( high COR ) on the H.
    The Chinese figured that out years ago. My 3rd coach from Tianjin used H3 National on the FH and T05 on the BH.

    I put D09c on my BH and really enjoy the speed and control.
    Cringe.
    Equipment doesn't have control. The player does. However, some equipment is easier to control.
    Sometime I will explain in detail as an engineer sees it which is reality if anybody cares. The TT manufacturers lie. The control should be the inverse of the spin and speed coefficient of restitutions.










  3. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #203
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Cringe.
    Equipment doesn't have control. The player does. However, some equipment is easier to control.
    Sometime I will explain in detail as an engineer sees it which is reality if anybody cares. The TT manufacturers lie. The control should be the inverse of the spin and speed coefficient of restitutions.
    I say, go ahead and explain. You could do it in a thread you start if you didn't want to derail this thread. I would be interested in reading it, especially if it is not part of a campaign to argue with someone and is just the information well explained.
    -
    But I also say that you are getting hung up on a figure of speech rather than someone thinking the rubber is exerting any control. You may also note that the rubber does not have spin either, but it may allow you to impart spin on the ball.
    -
    Probably, the statement you are reacting to meant something like: "On my BH D09c makes it easy for me to hit fast, spinny shots and even though the shot has a lot of spin and speed I can nevertheless, easily place the ball where I want putting extra pressure on my opponent with placement without sacrificing spin or speed."
    -
    But that is just a lot of words to use when you can get across what, will be interpreted by most as pretty much the same meaning with: "I really enjoy the spin, speed and control."

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 06-22-2021 at 02:14 PM.
    Setup 1: Blade by Nate: Vortex Spin Machine, FH Evolution MX-K, BH Evolution FX-P
    Setup 2: OSP Virtuoso Plus, FH Rasanter R 48, BH Rasanter R 48
    Spin is Everything

  4. brokenball is offline
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    #204
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    I say, go ahead and explain. You could do it in a thread you start if you didn't want to derail this thread.
    I would start a new topic and add a hash tag #control

    But I also say that you are getting hung up on a figure of speech rather than someone thinking the rubber is exerting any control.
    It is a misleading figure of speech. I just want to make sure that forum members do not think the equipment will make them better.

    You may also note that the rubber does not have spin either, but it may allow you to impart spin on the ball.
    spin and speed should be thought of as tangential and normal coefficients of restitution. If I desired, I could compute these number. Then we would have real data for spin and speed. However, it is up to the player to control the spin and speed.

    Probably, the statement you are reacting to meant something like: "On my BH D09c makes it easy for me to hit fast, spinny shots and even though the shot has a lot of spin and speed I can nevertheless, easily place the ball where I want putting extra pressure on my opponent with placement without sacrificing spin or speed."
    This doesn't bother me. It is an opinion. Dan is a very good player and can hit fast spinny shots with many different rubbers as shown in his many videos. So what makes D09 better?
    I agree with Dan's assessment that D09 is faster and it is easier to hit the ball fast. That could be important in a long tournament and especially if playing back from the table.
    What I saw was that H3 commerical is relatively dead and I thought that Dan gave H3 commercial a too high rating for spin. H3 does have a high spin to speed ratio because it is so slow..

    But that is just a lot of words to use when you can get across what, will be interpreted by most as pretty much the same meaning with: "I really enjoy the spin, speed and control."
    It is the control part that bothers me. Put D09 on a new player's paddle and see if they do better with that over and old Mark V. They will be able to hit the ball faster when they have a line of sight flat hit but after that the extra speed will result in balls going off the table and the extra spin will resulting in many more unforced errors.

  5. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #205
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I would start a new topic and add a hash tag #control


    It is a misleading figure of speech. I just want to make sure that forum members do not think the equipment will make them better.


    spin and speed should be thought of as tangential and normal coefficients of restitution. If I desired, I could compute these number. Then we would have real data for spin and speed. However, it is up to the player to control the spin and speed.


    This doesn't bother me. It is an opinion. Dan is a very good player and can hit fast spinny shots with many different rubbers as shown in his many videos. So what makes D09 better?
    I agree with Dan's assessment that D09 is faster and it is easier to hit the ball fast. That could be important in a long tournament and especially if playing back from the table.
    What I saw was that H3 commerical is relatively dead and I thought that Dan gave H3 commercial a too high rating for spin. H3 does have a high spin to speed ratio because it is so slow..


    It is the control part that bothers me. Put D09 on a new player's paddle and see if they do better with that over and old Mark V. They will be able to hit the ball faster when they have a line of sight flat hit but after that the extra speed will result in balls going off the table and the extra spin will resulting in many more unforced errors.
    Definitely start a new thread. I am looking forward to it. It will be really useful information.
    -
    You know I agree with you on the rest. It is okay to explain how the term "control" is often used as a shortcut that, when you really look at it, is misleading, and misleading in sooooooo many ways.
    -
    For instance: even if we grant that what is meant is that a rubber is easy to control rather than that it has control, you still need to ask the question: EASIER TO CONTROL in WHAT INSTANCES.
    -
    Long pips make it very easy to return certain high spin serves. So, it makes it easy for you to control those serves. But if you tried to COUNTERLOOP with Long Pips--if you were trying to produce heavy heavy topspin in response to a heavy heavy topspin shot coming at you while using long pips--you would realize that a rubber that is easy to control in one instance is very hard to exert control over in another circumstance.
    -
    So, the question of what a rubber allows you easy control over is also important to enunciate when talking about "control". And all of these things require the skill of the person holding the racket and his facility in using the equipment in his/her hand.
    -
    So, yes, control is not a very accurate or precise term. That being said, it is easy to express this without it being directed at any one person. And, when it is used in a way that the meaning seems clear enough, I just ignore the issue.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 06-22-2021 at 03:52 PM.
    Setup 1: Blade by Nate: Vortex Spin Machine, FH Evolution MX-K, BH Evolution FX-P
    Setup 2: OSP Virtuoso Plus, FH Rasanter R 48, BH Rasanter R 48
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  6. GrayGhost is offline
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    #206
    Well that escalated quickly! By control I guess I should say the combination of the ultra grippy top sheet and speed that's not quite as fast as tenergy/dignics 05 makes it easier for me to swing harder and still land on the table.

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  7. Der_Echte is offline
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    #207
    BB and Carl are asking the right questions and considerations.

    Control of what?

    Define control (Ease to perform a kind of shot)

    Is control using a certain rubber/blade a broad spectrum thing, or specific to some shots?

    What are some categories of ruber that make it easy (control) to do THIS, or THAT or the NEW THING

    What equipment makes it easier or difficult close to bounce impact with which impact?

    What KIND of control would benefit WHAT KIND OF PLAYER?

    Would a rubber easy to control this or that make a player's game better in general right now? Later without coaching? With coaching?

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