Dignics 09c vs hurricane 3

I think I've had enough of your guesses, Lasta. Hopefully the sub-discussion between Yogi and I can be of interest and maybe add some facts to your theories.

yogi_bear said:

it all comes down to the contract yes but reality comes in wherein companies also do not want their players decrease in performance just because they switched to a different equipment. HUgo Calderano for once was not forced by Xiom to switch everything to Xiom though he is using an all Xiom blade and rubbers now.

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They are forced to switch - sometimes, players switch handles so they can use blades they like while keeping their sponsorship requirements intact. Any exceptions are in the contract - it isn't about your playing level. Many players go to a different sponsor and use equipment they may not love because the sponsorship dollars they get are more. Butterfly doesn't need more than Timo and Harimoto to sell rubbers. Most players below that are unlikely to get deals as good as those guys. So someone who may like to use Tenergy but gets paid more by Xiom wil have to use Xiom if he wants the money. While ESN has closed the gap, there are still different opinions about what all this means.

NextLevel said:

They are forced to switch - sometimes, players switch handles so they can use blades they like while keeping their sponsorship requirements intact. Any exceptions are in the contract - it isn't about your playing level. Many players go to a different sponsor and use equipment they may not love because the sponsorship dollars they get are more. Butterfly doesn't need more than Timo and Harimoto to sell rubbers. Most players below that are unlikely to get deals as good as those guys. So someone who may like to use Tenergy but gets paid more by Xiom wil have to use Xiom if he wants the money. While ESN has closed the gap, there are still different opinions about what all this means.

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switching your handle to your brand is not entirely correct in saying that it is a different equipment. Also, your player ranking does affect what you can ask in a contract. your assumption that all are forced is not entirely correct.

MOG said:

Can I just ask how do you guys know all this stuff about professionals and contracts?

Do any of you know any current professional players?
Are there any current professional players on the forum who could enlighten us?

Is it possible that some professionals can switch equipment without worrying too much and maybe others are very sensitive.

I read somewhere that when a pro tries a new blade they have about 10 of the same blade try them all and pick the 3 they like best!

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i am still in contact with companies and have insider info. other things speak for themselves.

MOG said:

Can I just ask how do you guys know all this stuff about professionals and contracts?

Do any of you know any current professional players?
Are there any current professional players on the forum who could enlighten us?

Is it possible that some professionals can switch equipment without worrying too much and maybe others are very sensitive.

I read somewhere that when a pro tries a new blade they have about 10 of the same blade try them all and pick the 3 they like best!

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Yes, I know quite a few current professional and sponsored players, and many former/retired professional or sponsored players. I also know several people working in the world of international table tennis, either on the equipment company or administrative side.

I know that Yogi works closely with many equipment companies.

Oftentimes an equipment manager for certain teams will do some vetting process on blades, but it is not really an exact science I don't believe. Players do try out blades and see which one they like, but it is not as exaggerated as trying out 10 and picking 3 or anything like that, and doesn't happen every time.

MOG said:

Can I just ask how do you guys know all this stuff about professionals and contracts?

Do any of you know any current professional players?
Are there any current professional players on the forum who could enlighten us?

Is it possible that some professionals can switch equipment without worrying too much and maybe others are very sensitive.

I read somewhere that when a pro tries a new blade they have about 10 of the same blade try them all and pick the 3 they like best!

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in Hugo's case if I did not forget he had like 30 to 50 blade samples i think before picking his HAL blade.

yogi_bear said:

switching your handle to your brand is not entirely correct in saying that it is a different equipment. Also, your player ranking does affect what you can ask in a contract. your assumption that all are forced is not entirely correct.

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I know two players, and I have seen their blades, who are top pros and use Butterfly blades where the handles were changed to match their sponsor's brand.

Yes, a player with a higher ranking can negotiate more things. But that doesn't mean that the player is not forced to use the equipment of the sponsor. And it is not about being a top player, it is about what is in the contract. Some players ask for clauses to let them use equipment that they play best with but some companies refuse. Tibhar is especially notorious for refusing to let players use equipment from other brands.

MOG said:

Can I just ask how do you guys know all this stuff about professionals and contracts?

Do any of you know any current professional players?
Are there any current professional players on the forum who could enlighten us?

Is it possible that some professionals can switch equipment without worrying too much and maybe others are very sensitive.

I read somewhere that when a pro tries a new blade they have about 10 of the same blade try them all and pick the 3 they like best!

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Yes, I know people. And they are not going to discuss as a fun topic issues that affect the livelihoods of themselves and other people.

NextLevel said:

I know two players, and I have seen their blades, who are top pros and use Butterfly blades where the handles were changed to match their sponsor's brand.

Yes, a player with a higher ranking can negotiate more things. But that doesn't mean that the player is not forced to use the equipment of the sponsor. And it is not about being a top player, it is about what is in the contract. Some players ask for clauses to let them use equipment that they play best with but some companies refuse. Tibhar is especially notorious for refusing to let players use equipment from other brands.

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Yogi is focused on discussing flagship players who are going to be the center of attention for marketing and have blades named after them, etc. This is a very small proportion of all sponsored players. And even still, in many of these examples, they are still forced to use their equipment. I doubt that Xiom was going to let Hugo use whatever he wants for years on end, no matter how flexible they were at the early stages of the transition period.

I can't believe this is having to be discussed ad nauseam because someone who admittedly doesn't know how equipment sponsorships work started spewing off theories about what pro players do when it comes to changing equipment or meeting sponsor demands.

NextLevel said:

I know two players, and I have seen their blades, who are top pros and use Butterfly blades where the handles were changed to match their sponsor's brand.

Yes, a player with a higher ranking can negotiate more things. But that doesn't mean that the player is not forced to use the equipment of the sponsor. And it is not about being a top player, it is about what is in the contract. Some players ask for clauses to let them use equipment that they play best with but some companies refuse. Tibhar is especially notorious for refusing to let players use equipment from other brands.

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we have different perspectives here but at the end of the day there are players that are forced and some players that are forced. although, to say that they are all forced to change equipment is very incorrect. even if you cite an example of player having a butterfly blade with a different handle. I will take make FZD's infinity blade before with a viscaria blade. even if you changed the handle to infinity the fact remains it is still a different blade from the brand he represents. yes you will go back again to your argument that it depends on the contract but it does not remove the fact that top players have a much more leg room or choices.

zyu81 said:

Yogi is focused on discussing flagship players who are going to be the center of attention for marketing and have blades named after them, etc. This is a very small proportion of all sponsored players. And even still, in many of these examples, they are still forced to use their equipment. I doubt that Xiom was going to let Hugo use whatever he wants for years on end, no matter how flexible they were at the early stages of the transition period.

I can't believe this is having to be discussed ad nauseam because someone who admittedly doesn't know how equipment sponsorships work started spewing off theories about what pro players do when it comes to changing equipment or meeting sponsor demands.

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As far as I know, Hugo is too valuable for Xiom and has not forced him according to a friend of mine in Xiom. I cannot say this is true for other top players. (added)

yogi_bear said:

we have different perspectives here but at the end of the day there are players that are forced and some players that are forced. although, to say that they are all forced to change equipment is very incorrect. even if you cite an example of player having a butterfly blade with a different handle. I will take make FZD's infinity blade before with a viscaria blade. even if you changed the handle to infinity the fact remains it is still a different blade from the brand he represents. yes you will go back again to your argument that it depends on the contract but it does not remove the fact that top players have a much more leg room or choices.

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And top players/flagship names are a tiny proportion of all sponsored players so it is not really worth focusing on just that small bit. What you are saying is not necessarily wrong, but if you look at this discussion in context of Lasta's original claims that sponsored players don't bother to try equipment from their own company, and that essentially all rubbers are created equal, I don't think you would be so passionately arguing what you are.

Lasta, this is about an attempt at improvement, see what happens if you find a mirror that lets you see your torso. If you have one that will let you see your legs as well, it will also help. Practice a few hundred FH counter strokes in front of the mirror. Just a small, basic stroke. Same with BH. Do that a few days in a row, just the FH stroke and the BH stroke separated. You could do 10 of one then 10 of the other over and over, but just the stroke.

Then try to do One FH and One BH with the footwork to switch, not moving side to side, but the imagined ball contact for BH and FH would be about 2-3 feet apart . Do maybe 300-500 a day for a few days. 300-500 could take 30 min.

Then, add a one step to the movement with FH and BH this would make it so the imagined ball contact would be about a foot farther apart. Do about 300-500 a day for about a week.

Then do the same with a step around step so that you would be taking the BH and the FH with the same ball contact spot. Again, do about 300-500 a day for about a week.

Then improvise and do any footwork drills you want with basic shadow strokes.

After you complete this experiment, tell us if you feel your strokes have more power and your contact feels cleaner just from doing shadow drills. Just from about 30 min a day of shadow stroke/footwork drills.

Here is an example of me mixing things up. Note I am just doing small compact strokes. I cannot tell you how much this helped me improve my upper body/lower body coordination for linking footwork with stroke production.


For ball feel self hitting really helps as well:

zyu81 said:

And top players/flagship names are a tiny proportion of all sponsored players so it is not really worth focusing on just that small bit. What you are saying is not necessarily wrong, but if you look at this discussion in context of Lasta's original claims that sponsored players don't bother to try equipment from their own company, and that essentially all rubbers are created equal, I don't think you would be so passionately arguing what you are.

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I did say "players MAY or MAY NOT try the brand they represent" for my reply to lasta and yes i used the top players as an example but i am not saying it is true to all as lower ranked players may not have what top players have. I am only saying this happens.

MOG said:

Carl do you not have any friends to practice with or do you live on top of a mountain alone??

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These are good things to do in CoVID times to stay safe and still progress.

Actually, with how things are in the US, the only person I have been playing with during CoVID is my sister.

She is getting better. I am in trouble.

I am also actually playing more during CoVID than I had since 2017 when my wife passed. Now I have a little extra time.

But 30 min of shadow drills a day can really add a lot of rating points to your game. This is one where I am practicing an imagined short push to the wide FH, the reset and then a few of the shot options after the reset:


These kinds of things, for sure, help when your body just knows what to do without you having to think. And this one relates to the footwork you asked about in a different thread: taking a short ball with the FH over the table and how you use your feet for that.

zeio said:

"Player experience" is a computer science term, most often mentioned in game design. It's about maximizing the experience the player goes through when they play a game.

I'm borrowing the concept here to emphasize the importance of starting from the player's perspective when we talk about equipment and technique.

Below is what happens when you start from a purely physics standpoint, kinematics to be precise. All you need to do is follow the formula to play like Franziska and Niwa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO8Gb8LHkeg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogeTLjES9vY

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Hi,

the ‘player experience’ is then gearing how you are going to train a person, so that they get the most out of the training,
so with video games, a controller with a vibration mode , gave an added dimension, then came the motion type controller etc the games have become more engaging and immersive for the player with additional Tech and inclusion of other players etc the games have given a far better ‘player experience’

the only other coaching / training I have had (other than table tennis) has been for golf, and the coaches use cameras, launch monitors and computers to show you what you are doing and show a comparison (using a split screen ) to another player who is doing what they want you to do. This is similar to what Carl is talking about regarding mirror practice and watching your own movements.


with the ‘physics’ clips/slides of Mr Niwa and Franziska showing various figures for spin, velocity etc, your right in that, I look at it and think how does this help me? But it was the same with the table of figures from the launch monitor data the 1st time I saw that!!!!
Once the coach had explained what some of the figures related to, I could then see improvement both in actual play out on the course and in the data records as I practiced and improved.

The coach also had a ‘pressure’ plate machine/instrument which he said he didn’t make enough use of!!
It recorded the additional pressure a person can impose through the ground. It was never explained properly to me, but I believe it has to do with using the ground and your body to your benefit, sort of loading yourself through the ground and exploding out of the ground, he did mention that players good at it, sort of weigh more for a fraction of a second, I could be wrong, I’m sure I’ll be corrected !!!!

Going back to the ‘player experience’ for learning table tennis, the inclusion of video footage of myself, and a bit of science as well as the physical side of training ( i mean actually playing strokes, movement exercises etc) would for me, result in a better ‘player experience’ everyone loves a bit of tech !!!!!!

it would be even better if there was a monitor that tracked your movement and bat angle speed etc etc and traced the ball, then you could check the data against that of Mr Niwa and Franziska and actually say ‘today, I actually served like Franziska and returned a serve like Niwa !!!!!’


i think the term ‘science’ would have been a much better word to have used !!!!

As far as different rubbers....I have enjoyed reading and wanted to stay away from that discussion, but....there are plenty of rubbers that do everything well enough for me to use them. But that does not mean there isn't enough difference to matter. It means I can get by with less.

However, my experience is that T05 is really more consistent and better at what it does than most of the attempts from other brands in the past to duplicate what T05 can do. Maybe these days there rubbers that compare favorably or are better. Like the Rasanter R48 I am using is pretty darn good.

I have not tried any of the Dignics rubbers. But I would not be surprised, if a lot of top pros are using them, that there is a real reason that some from our varied levels may not be able to feel, but that the top pros can feel and they know why they are choosing the rubbers they choose.

I still think, one of the most interesting things in this whole discussion is what NextLevel was describing about how, with H3 you can get so much spin on low impact shots compared to the Euro rubbers. That leaves a lot of food for thought if you ask me. It will be worth continuing to think about what that means.

UpSideDownCarl said:

As far as different rubbers....I have wanted to stay away from that discussion, but....there are plenty of rubbers that do everything well enough for me to use them. But that does not mean there isn't enough difference to matter. It means I can get by with less.

However, my experience is that T05 is really more consistent and better at what it does than most of the attempts from other brands in the past to duplicate what T05 can do. Maybe these days there rubbers that compare favorably or are better.

I have not tried any of the Dignics rubbers. But I would not be surprised, if a lot of top pros are using them, that there is a real reason that some our level may not be able to feel, but that the top pros can feel and they know why they are choosing the rubbers they choose.

I still think, one of the most interesting things in this whole discussion is what NextLevel was describing about how, with H3 you can get so much spin on low impact shots compared to the Euro rubbers. That leaves a lot of food for thought if you ask me.

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I actually meant on high impact (I could have made a mistake). On low impact shots, you feel as if you aren't spinning unless you put in a lot of effort. But when looping really hard, you feel as if you can loop anything once you are willing to put in the effort.

Just about EVERY KOEANN AMATEUR TT CLUB I have ever stepped into, and I stepped into a lot, I got around, had such a full length mirror for exactly this purpose.

Old School coaches, who run most of the clubs, are big-time into the importance of shadow strokes.

Some of the more "Radical" of the old school crowd will have you shadows stroking for MONTHS or even a year before they will coach you.

Next Korea president was one of these who had such an old school mentality coach.

NextLevel said:

I actually meant on high impact (I could have made a mistake). On low impact shots, you feel as if you aren't spinning unless you put in a lot of effort. But when looping really hard, you feel as if you can loop anything once you are willing to put in the effort.

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Oh. Okay. That makes more sense. I was thinking of the short game potential of touching soft and still getting massive spin. Darn. It turns out I won't be switching to Ma Long's extra hard FH H3 for my BH after all.

Yeah. I could see, players used to playing with H3, training with H3, knowing how to get that top end performance out of H3 being able to get more spin and pace from H3 at the top end while players used to using spring sponge may feel something different when comparing D09c to H3 [Do I need to say: BOOSTED ]