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Dignics 09c vs hurricane 3
- Thread starter TableTennisDaily
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I don't think it's necessarily rude or dismissive... as you talk to people across the skill spectrum you notice there are really big differences in the way they view and interpret things. Taking anonymous posts on the internet at face value is too difficult due to all the inherent biases, language barriers, differences in ways of communicating...
There are a lot of hot topics that I see discussed here for which I also don't know any serious player that would think about those things... I can't think of a single high level player I know who would talk about how the outer or inner Limba versus Koto plies of his/her blade factors into his/her game...maybe inner or outer carbon construction at best...but I think some topics are more obvious than others in regards to how much difference they can make or how much they matter in playing the game.
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Oh I know it is not necessarily rude or dismissive. The problem is that people use it to argue that I am being elitist when the truth is that I started playing serious table tennis about 9 years ago and went from USATT 500-600 to USATT 2000-2100 in about 4 years and have been working on my technique and understanding of higher level table tennis/coaching ever since. So some of my behavior is really me thinking about some of the insights I used to have when I was 1400 or 1700 about how TT had to work. I actually tried to learn from brokenball's physics approach at one time - yes I was that naive.
I don't 100% agree with the plies statement though - top players are pretty aware of such things since they test and design blades/handles, many just don't do it forever or make it a big deal since they know the biggest factor is the training hours. But Freitas is very aware about what blade he is using vs the blade Apolonia is using and why he is not using a Timo Boll ALC instead etc. And of course some players just are so used to a blade that they won't change it unless you pry it out of their dying hands... and then there are people who hit with a few blades in their bag (all the same setup) until they find one they like then they stick with that one for the day.
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Yes, one's perception of the game definitely evolves as you move to new levels and get more experience and exposure to what works and doesn't.
Without picking at straws too much, I am very aware that they can tell differences between blades...going into deep details between different wood types (i.e. a post I saw the other day from a recreational player talking about the Ayous inner core and how it will affect his game) and how they are better for this or that shot or suit this or that playstyle...not so much...never heard any such comments in my time. The level at which some people get into the weeds about some things, wood types and plies being just one example, is part of what you mention in the first part of your post... getting the wrong idea of what is and isn't essential to improvement.
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Agreed - higher level players usually know a few things about their equipment that leads them to believe it works for them. But that is not the same thing as their claiming to be experts about how equipment affects their game.
That said, this still exists:
https://butterflyonline.com/ask-the-experts-stefan-feth-no-193/
says
toooooo much choice!!
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toooooo much choice!!
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Hi,
the player may not have an explicit understanding of the physics, and sometimes the same goes for the coaches. They have learnt by being told what to do, this right, this is wrong, what you’re doing is good but change this slightly and it will be great etc. Really good coaches will have a good around knowledge and experience of playing table tennis, so they may have a little more knowledge of the physics as well.
watching other players and copying what they do is a great way to learn, and basically that’s what coaches do, they watch learn understand and transfer the knowledge on and use their own experience of having been coached themselves.
If they can improve something then they will.
The physics side of things is becoming more available, it can also help with injuries and how to avoid them, where the strain is placed throughout the body. I suppose the physics side of thing will become a specialist aspect of table tennis and other sports in the future, so a physical conditioning coach will be able and is able to provide specific physical exercise routines that are designed for table tennis and take in other exercise types.
for example ‘pilates’ which I have been told by my old instructor, was originally designed for boxers, to improve core strength and breathing. This has now crossed over to dance, football , general everyday exercise for non sporty people as well. It’s now a varied rather than originally specific sport exercise. You take the best bits of everything and combine.
the player may not have an explicit understanding of the physics, and sometimes the same goes for the coaches. They have learnt by being told what to do, this right, this is wrong, what you’re doing is good but change this slightly and it will be great etc. Really good coaches will have a good around knowledge and experience of playing table tennis, so they may have a little more knowledge of the physics as well.
watching other players and copying what they do is a great way to learn, and basically that’s what coaches do, they watch learn understand and transfer the knowledge on and use their own experience of having been coached themselves.
If they can improve something then they will.
The physics side of things is becoming more available, it can also help with injuries and how to avoid them, where the strain is placed throughout the body. I suppose the physics side of thing will become a specialist aspect of table tennis and other sports in the future, so a physical conditioning coach will be able and is able to provide specific physical exercise routines that are designed for table tennis and take in other exercise types.
for example ‘pilates’ which I have been told by my old instructor, was originally designed for boxers, to improve core strength and breathing. This has now crossed over to dance, football , general everyday exercise for non sporty people as well. It’s now a varied rather than originally specific sport exercise. You take the best bits of everything and combine.
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What you are calling physics may or may not be the physics you learn in school. You are likely calling a lot of things physics that have little to do with a formal study of the subject.
What Brokenball means is the kind of physics that engineers use not elements of physical fitness or physiotherapy.
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toooooo much choice!!
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agreed, jumped across subjects!
What I was getting at, is that ‘physics’ applies to everything, and can be applied to other aspects as well.
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toooooo much choice!!
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Its called body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning and other sciences involving human anatomy but not clsssrom physics where you should do the impulse of this and then argue about burning rubber is the only thing that can produce power. Things like those, you get what i mean.
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Spin and more spin.
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Hey, I actually really am enjoying the back and forth between Zyu and NextLevel. One thing that is really nice about it is that, as I read it, it seems like the conversation is building, like one point allows the next to go a step further. And, with some give and take I feel like they covered a lot of ground.
I want to talk about physics and equations and mathematical formulas for determining how much of the magnus effect a certain player's loop will have on the ball......
So, for a lot of people, it is true, learning a sport like TT by doing, watching, replicating, FEELING, and repeating motor movements is how most of the real learning in TT happen.
But if a player like brokenball has used the massive amount of physics and engineering training he has to help him understand what he is doing with his racket and how he is imparting spin on the ball, MORE POWER TO HIM.
I think the problem comes when someone tries to insist: "because this works for me, it has to be the same for everybody." Now I have seen recent footage of brokenball and I will say he has improved a lot from 4-6 years ago. He still has a ways to go. But for a guy in his 60s he has really done a good job improving.
So I am not going to knock him for that. And if he has physics equations that will help me understand from a different perspective, some of what I am doing when I contact the ball tangentially, let the ball sink into the sponge so that the topsheet grabs the ball and is stretched and distorted by the ball sinking into the sponge tangentially while the topsheet is grabbing.....and that feeling that happens when the topsheet grabs the ball and distorts.....I am all for extra info. Even how, when the stretched topsheet rebounds creating what sometimes gets called mechanical spin, equations for the speed of the rebound of the topsheet and how that adds extra spin to the ball and effects the spin to speed ration (some of why higher level players get so much more spin than not-as-higher level payers).....Well I don't think I can be hurt by that information.
However, while information like that may help one person and do nothing for another, and while that would not be the standard way one would learn to loop and increase the amount of spin on the ball.....It could be helpful to some to learn that stuff. Studies show imaging (imagining visual imagery of what you are trying to achieve) can really help athletic performance. So, I definitely image, in my head, while I am looping (sometimes) stuff--like what I described above about the ball sinking in, the topsheet grabbing, the topsheet distorting and then rebounding--and I am confident it helps me add more spin to the ball and control the depth of my contact better.
But everyone learns differently so, insisting that one way is the way everyone has to learn is what could get problematic. Obviously something is working for brokenball. Obviously not everyone relates to what works for brokenball. It is also obvious that sometimes someone says the same thing as brokenball in language that is not exactly precise in terms of physics and even reality (often people think in images and metaphors) and we have seen how brokenball likes to bust myths and show people how they are WRONG, so he can get animated when people use words he doesn't appreciate.
A nice example is the word control and how it is used in regards to table tennis equipment: most of us know what is meant when someone says, this blade (or rubber) has good "control". We know the rubber does not have control. We know the rubber does not control anything. We know the control comes from the skill of our hand, arm, stroke mechanics, touch, feel, and neural pathways.....oh, wait, I went into biomechanics and put you to sleep didn't I.....We know we are who exert control over the ball with the racket. And that what is referred to by the word "control" in that context is that:
--for a certain of shot, for a certain level player, a particular rubber makes it easier to control the ball.
So, one rubber may make it easier for one specific player to push, the same rubber may make it easier for that same player to loop. While a higher level player may have way more control responding to spin with a rubber that is much more grippy and spin sensitive because that player uses how he touches the ball, the speed of the racket and the tangential contact to impart spin on the ball and for that player, the spin is what gives control.
And clearly, LP, which are easy to do certain things with, and so, could be said to be easy to control for certain shots, but they would make it be pretty close to impossible to exert control over the ball with LP if you were trying to counterloop vs heavy topspin with them.
Anyway, the reason I bring up the term "control" is, we all have some understanding of what a person means when they use the term no matter how weird and imprecise the term is. But that word "control", I think it is like nails scraping on a chalk board for brokenball because he can't go with the metaphor because the term is technically incorrect.
What am I saying here? Who cares about getting too bound in all the terms.
I bet brokenball would be fun to have on a goon squad adventure. As long as Der_Echte was there to make sure he got enough chicken and beer in the hustle.
I want to talk about physics and equations and mathematical formulas for determining how much of the magnus effect a certain player's loop will have on the ball......
So, for a lot of people, it is true, learning a sport like TT by doing, watching, replicating, FEELING, and repeating motor movements is how most of the real learning in TT happen.
But if a player like brokenball has used the massive amount of physics and engineering training he has to help him understand what he is doing with his racket and how he is imparting spin on the ball, MORE POWER TO HIM.
I think the problem comes when someone tries to insist: "because this works for me, it has to be the same for everybody." Now I have seen recent footage of brokenball and I will say he has improved a lot from 4-6 years ago. He still has a ways to go. But for a guy in his 60s he has really done a good job improving.
So I am not going to knock him for that. And if he has physics equations that will help me understand from a different perspective, some of what I am doing when I contact the ball tangentially, let the ball sink into the sponge so that the topsheet grabs the ball and is stretched and distorted by the ball sinking into the sponge tangentially while the topsheet is grabbing.....and that feeling that happens when the topsheet grabs the ball and distorts.....I am all for extra info. Even how, when the stretched topsheet rebounds creating what sometimes gets called mechanical spin, equations for the speed of the rebound of the topsheet and how that adds extra spin to the ball and effects the spin to speed ration (some of why higher level players get so much more spin than not-as-higher level payers).....Well I don't think I can be hurt by that information.
However, while information like that may help one person and do nothing for another, and while that would not be the standard way one would learn to loop and increase the amount of spin on the ball.....It could be helpful to some to learn that stuff. Studies show imaging (imagining visual imagery of what you are trying to achieve) can really help athletic performance. So, I definitely image, in my head, while I am looping (sometimes) stuff--like what I described above about the ball sinking in, the topsheet grabbing, the topsheet distorting and then rebounding--and I am confident it helps me add more spin to the ball and control the depth of my contact better.
But everyone learns differently so, insisting that one way is the way everyone has to learn is what could get problematic. Obviously something is working for brokenball. Obviously not everyone relates to what works for brokenball. It is also obvious that sometimes someone says the same thing as brokenball in language that is not exactly precise in terms of physics and even reality (often people think in images and metaphors) and we have seen how brokenball likes to bust myths and show people how they are WRONG, so he can get animated when people use words he doesn't appreciate.
A nice example is the word control and how it is used in regards to table tennis equipment: most of us know what is meant when someone says, this blade (or rubber) has good "control". We know the rubber does not have control. We know the rubber does not control anything. We know the control comes from the skill of our hand, arm, stroke mechanics, touch, feel, and neural pathways.....oh, wait, I went into biomechanics and put you to sleep didn't I.....We know we are who exert control over the ball with the racket. And that what is referred to by the word "control" in that context is that:
--for a certain of shot, for a certain level player, a particular rubber makes it easier to control the ball.
So, one rubber may make it easier for one specific player to push, the same rubber may make it easier for that same player to loop. While a higher level player may have way more control responding to spin with a rubber that is much more grippy and spin sensitive because that player uses how he touches the ball, the speed of the racket and the tangential contact to impart spin on the ball and for that player, the spin is what gives control.
And clearly, LP, which are easy to do certain things with, and so, could be said to be easy to control for certain shots, but they would make it be pretty close to impossible to exert control over the ball with LP if you were trying to counterloop vs heavy topspin with them.
Anyway, the reason I bring up the term "control" is, we all have some understanding of what a person means when they use the term no matter how weird and imprecise the term is. But that word "control", I think it is like nails scraping on a chalk board for brokenball because he can't go with the metaphor because the term is technically incorrect.
What am I saying here? Who cares about getting too bound in all the terms.
I bet brokenball would be fun to have on a goon squad adventure. As long as Der_Echte was there to make sure he got enough chicken and beer in the hustle.
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says
Spin and more spin.
says
Spin and more spin.
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E = mc[SUP]2
[/SUP]F[SUB]c[/SUB] = ma[SUB]c[/SUB] = mv[SUP]2[/SUP] /r
a[SUB]c[/SUB]= v[SUP]2[/SUP] /r
x = x [SUB]0[/SUB] + v [SUB]0[/SUB] t + 1/2at[SUP]2
[/SUP]V[SUB]ƒ[/SUB] = V[SUB]o[/SUB] + at
I = F Δt = ΔM
M = mv
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Obviously everyone can learn to play without using physics. The question is would knowing the physics of TT make learning go a little faster. I say it would. It isn't necessary to get into formulas for most of it. However, there have been some debates that continue and are not resolved yet. There is too much opinion on this forum which is understandable because most people don't want to put the time into really evaluating a rubber, ball or blade like Pathfinderpro did years ago. I could do it. I have the money and resources but I don't have the time.
The Omron robot could use an AI program like Alpha Go or Lela Chess 0. This is similar to the way humans learn.
It is faster to teach the Omron robot by using physics because it would take hundreds of thousands of balls to for the AI to learn to play TT by trial and error whereas the physics is well known and be programmed in. Alpha Go and Lela Chess 0 can learn by playing against themselves and they can play so many games in a few hours whereas it would take the Omron robot weeks or months to learn playing real balls. My point is that physics/math can guide get you to the final goal faster.
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Don't misquote me. I said that knowing physics will help you train faster and more intelligently. It still takes physical ability and practice.
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Q: How do you keep the flow of Chicken and Beer continually flowing?
A: See Below.
- Win by only a tiny margin from behind without looking like you are taking the initiative
- Be Nice
- Speak their language and be gracious
- Enjoy the Chicken and Beer - share together
- Bring some beer to the club as pre match peace offering... the more German the beer the better
A: See Below.
- Win by only a tiny margin from behind without looking like you are taking the initiative
- Be Nice
- Speak their language and be gracious
- Enjoy the Chicken and Beer - share together
- Bring some beer to the club as pre match peace offering... the more German the beer the better
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Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
"Player experience" is a computer science term, most often mentioned in game design. It's about maximizing the experience the player goes through when they play a game.
I'm borrowing the concept here to emphasize the importance of starting from the player's perspective when we talk about equipment and technique.
Below is what happens when you start from a purely physics standpoint, kinematics to be precise. All you need to do is follow the formula to play like Franziska and Niwa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO8Gb8LHkeg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogeTLjES9vY
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Hi
In first i want to thank you for your interest...
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Hi
In first i want to thank you for your interest...
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You were the one claiming before that just because you know physics you can be a good coach. I remember that absurd statement you have years ago.
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