Dignics 09c vs hurricane 3

says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
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Yes. And for practical purposes, a ball with lesser spin versus a ball with more spin that is moving at the same velocity, although they are technically the same speed, to an actual player, the ball with more spin is going to be "faster" due to the increased pressure the receiving player is put under, less time they have to adjust and make a viable return, the way the ball will kick forward, etc, this stuff all goes into perceived speed by the opponent receiving your shots. It's not simply the velocity.

Yep. This is very important. Speed alone will not overpower. Spin alone can overpower. So, if what NL says about spin potential on lower power with H3, then that is a big deal.

And the combination of speed and spin is what makes a shot REALLY powerful. Which is also why some lower level players can be fooled and think: "My shot is faster, it has more power, I hit harder;" while they cannot see how much more spin a higher level player's ball has on it while still being pretty fast.

When you see a shot that is pretty fast, and it also arcs down towards the table because the spin overpowers the speed changing the trajectory, you know that is a shot with a lot of power and if you don't touch it right when returning it will feel like a ton of bricks and explode off your racket.
 
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I used H3 on my forehand for about 3 years solid,and to me to get the speed out of H3 is not how hard you hit but how fast and glaze the ball instead of flat hitting. Any way that was my experience .

Agreed! That's why you don't need to hit hard. You need to brush with high acceleration and with just right contact. Raw power is not enough. Technique, touch and finesse is what is required to get benefits from H3. Without those it is empty annoying brick as some might be calling those.
 
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Agreed! That's why you don't need to hit hard. You need to brush with high acceleration and with just right contact. Raw power is not enough. Technique, touch and finesse is what is required to get benefits from H3. Without those it is empty annoying brick as some might be calling those.

I would gently and poitely disagree. All good shots need to brush with acceleration. But if you are not hitting through the sponge of H3, you are not unleashing the power of this rubber. Many of these H3 players boost the rubber to keep the sponge soft, so that it is easier to hit through it. Any forward motion will give you the sponge impact while you loop. This forward motion, this impact will decide how powerful and how fast your loop will be. The accelerated brush from elbow and wrist will then decide the amount of spin. Ideal stroke will be around 70% impact/contact, 30% accelerated brushing. With ABS ball, some would do 80/20%. If you re looping near the table from an incoming underspin, you would likely be 10/90% to 30/70%., which means more upward motion. Also note that the power should be coming from your legs to hip rotation and then to your paddle, never about arm swing.
 
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I would gently and poitely disagree. All good shots need to brush with acceleration. But if you are not hitting through the sponge of H3, you are not unleashing the power of this rubber. Many of these H3 players boost the rubber to keep the sponge soft, so that it is easier to hit through it. Any forward motion will give you the sponge impact while you loop. This forward motion, this impact will decide how powerful and how fast your loop will be. The accelerated brush from elbow and wrist will then decide the amount of spin. Ideal stroke will be around 70% impact/contact, 30% accelerated brushing. With ABS ball, some would do 80/20%. If you re looping near the table from an incoming underspin, you would likely be 10/90% to 30/70%., which means more upward motion.

I didn't say you don't need to engage sponge. I said that you need to have just right contact. Not too thin, not too thick. I don't want to say what that contact is, because I can feel if do it right, but I don't know what the sponge is doing at that time. What I consider brush is stroke that has bat trajectory tangential to the ball. You can swing forward and don't strike through the ball is more like secant contact.

Also note that the power should be coming from your legs to hip rotation and then to your paddle, never about arm swing.

Couldn't agree more, I don't think I've ever said otherwise.

Probably the truth is somewhere in between. I dunno. That's what I was taught and what works for me. Also maybe I just understand what I feel wrong. When I think I've had proper contact, I feel ball dragging over the top sheet and I can observe speedy ball with flat trajectory, dipping strongly near the end line. I can also hear loud click if I was going for power.
 
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I would gently and poitely disagree. All good shots need to brush with acceleration. But if you are not hitting through the sponge of H3, you are not unleashing the power of this rubber. Many of these H3 players boost the rubber to keep the sponge soft, so that it is easier to hit through it. Any forward motion will give you the sponge impact while you loop. This forward motion, this impact will decide how powerful and how fast your loop will be. The accelerated brush from elbow and wrist will then decide the amount of spin. Ideal stroke will be around 70% impact/contact, 30% accelerated brushing. With ABS ball, some would do 80/20%. If you re looping near the table from an incoming underspin, you would likely be 10/90% to 30/70%., which means more upward motion. Also note that the power should be coming from your legs to hip rotation and then to your paddle, never about arm swing.

A higher level player told me that it really isn't about softness but about sponge compression - the boosters put bubbles in the sponge so it is easier to compress and generate spin. But the compressibility argument also applies to softer sponges as well.
 
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Hi,

1 thing to remember is that the D09C sponge is around 3 to 5 degrees harder than the H3 sponge!!! And 7 degrees harder than the H3 (37deg) that the lady was using in the D09C H3 blue sponge and H3 37 degree review.
H3 generally available in 39/40/41 degree sponges
D09C is 44 degree sponge hardness.
So when the H3 is boosted the sponge becomes ‘softer’ by how much I don’t know. So there could be a fairly large difference between the 2 rubbers s far as sponge hardness is concerned.
Another difference is probably density of the sponges, what the air to sponge ratio is, bubble size etc
is H3 sponge denser? Smaller bubble size? I think it probably is, that’s why it’s harder to engage the sponge and release the Gears H3 has.
Believe me, there is a noticeable difference in the spring effect of the D09C compared to the H3, the 1st time I had both rubbers on a blade together, for a short BH push the ball flew about 2ft further with D09C than H3, I was only pushing the ball 3 ft with the H3 twiddled to the D09C and ‘pop’ the ball just jumped forward an extra 2ft or so!!!
this reaction is what gives the impression of speed.
in a review I did earlier, I stated that D09C and Spin Art were faster than H3 with Aibiss slowest. I still stand by this, but what I would say is that the FASTER your stroke is, with good brushing then the difference in speed between the 2 rubbers becomes less different and this is where GEARS come into play, H3 has more, so I believe that possibly it becomes faster, especially when the ball is heavily spun. I can’t swing fast enough so therefore can’t reach the higher gears. That’s why I say H3 is slower.
Also remember that for years Players using H3 and T05 would twiddle when playing smashes, because the T05 was just simply faster. D09C may be similar, but as of yet have any CNT players used H3 D09C combo? It would be interesting to see what they do!
 
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I didn't say you don't need to engage sponge. I said that you need to have just right contact. Not too thin, not too thick. I don't want to say what that contact is, because I can feel if do it right, but I don't know what the sponge is doing at that time. What I consider brush is stroke that has bat trajectory tangential to the ball. You can swing forward and don't strike through the ball is more like secant contact.



Couldn't agree more, I don't think I've ever said otherwise.

Probably the truth is somewhere in between. I dunno. That's what I was taught and what works for me. Also maybe I just understand what I feel wrong. When I think I've had proper contact, I feel ball dragging over the top sheet and I can observe speedy ball with flat trajectory, dipping strongly near the end line. I can also hear loud click if I was going for power.

The irony is H3 sponge is not easy to engage if you don't hit hard enough. So, it really depends on how boosted is that H3 sponge. Everyone has a different stroke. We can agree to disagree :), If you look at players above 2500 level, you will see how hard they hit when they loop.
 
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A higher level player told me that it really isn't about softness but about sponge compression - the boosters put bubbles in the sponge so it is easier to compress and generate spin. But the compressibility argument also applies to softer sponges as well.

The bubble theory is beyond my level. But I can say for certain is boosting soften H3 rubber so it is easier to use and you can obtain more spin because there is a longer dwell time. Then again, booster is different from speed glue. I can easily block a 1900 player with boosted H3 national but it is extremely difficult to block a speed glued H3 commercial. I am a good blocker too.
 
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I would gently and poitely disagree. All good shots need to brush with acceleration. But if you are not hitting through the sponge of H3, you are not unleashing the power of this rubber. Many of these H3 players boost the rubber to keep the sponge soft, so that it is easier to hit through it. Any forward motion will give you the sponge impact while you loop. This forward motion, this impact will decide how powerful and how fast your loop will be. The accelerated brush from elbow and wrist will then decide the amount of spin. Ideal stroke will be around 70% impact/contact, 30% accelerated brushing. With ABS ball, some would do 80/20%. If you re looping near the table from an incoming underspin, you would likely be 10/90% to 30/70%., which means more upward motion. Also note that the power should be coming from your legs to hip rotation and then to your paddle, never about arm swing.

I agree that the power comes from your legs, hip rotation, but the power is then transferred through and by your arm as well, and the arm swing is actually a big factor.
a straighter arm (not fully extended) makes a longer arc.
if you swing your arm with the arm straight, what moves fastest? Shoulder, elbow or hand? It’s your hand because it’s travelled further in the same amount of time.
thats why the European ‘FOLDED’ chicken wing topspin drive/loop is generally less efficient than the Chinese ‘EXTENDED’ chicken wing topspin drive/loop.
 
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I agree that the power comes from your legs, hip rotation, but the power is then transferred through and by your arm as well, and the arm swing is actually a big factor.
a straighter arm (not fully extended) makes a longer arc.
if you swing your arm with the arm straight, what moves fastest? Shoulder, elbow or hand? It’s your hand because it’s travelled further in the same amount of time.
thats why the European ‘FOLDED’ chicken wing topspin drive/loop is generally less efficient than the Chinese ‘EXTENDED’ chicken wing topspin drive/loop.

You are probably way more advance than my level. I can only share what works for me. Arm... you will always use arm in any stroke but I would try to use it during the brushing part and less on the contact portion of the movement. This is what works for me but will probably be different from yours. Anything works as long the ball land on the table and you are able to keep repeating it with great efficiency :). Kim Take Soo once said that there's no such thing as correct form. Everyone is different. Just make sure the ball lands consistently and with power ;-)
 
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I agree that the power comes from your legs, hip rotation, but the power is then transferred through and by your arm as well, and the arm swing is actually a big factor.
a straighter arm (not fully extended) makes a longer arc.
if you swing your arm with the arm straight, what moves fastest? Shoulder, elbow or hand? It’s your hand because it’s travelled further in the same amount of time.
thats why the European ‘FOLDED’ chicken wing topspin drive/loop is generally less efficient than the Chinese ‘EXTENDED’ chicken wing topspin drive/loop.

I have a feeling this conversation is going a bit too into the weeds for me to understand...but what do you mean by looping with a straight arm? How do you snap the forearm and wrist if you are looping with a straight arm?
 
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I have a feeling this conversation is going a bit too into the weeds for me to understand...but what do you mean by looping with a straight arm? How do you snap the forearm and wrist if you are looping with a straight arm?

Based on my personal experience, if you are using tensor rubber or esn rubber, it will be more effective and efficient to not have the arm straight. This is because the sponge is springy enough for you to generate power with a chicken wing arm...haha. But if you use a Hurricane rubber, an extended arm is better as it will help you to engage the sponge more with a lot more force. So, to me it is incorrect to say that the European style is less efficient. They are simply using a different type of rubber. Lastly, Jpen playing style also benefit from extended arm loop as it create monstrous driving loop.
 
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I think he means looping with the arm not so tucked in, a bit more like Xu Xin sometimes does. Arm at full length at some point in the swing or as with Xu Xin often fully extended all the way through the shot.

Does anybody loop with their elbow completely untucked?
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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I think he means looping with the arm not so tucked in, a bit more like Xu Xin sometimes does. Arm at full length at some point in the swing or as with Xu Xin often fully extended all the way through the shot.

I am not sure, but it might be good for us to let IB66 tell us what SHE means. :)
 
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Based on my personal experience, if you are using tensor rubber or esn rubber, it will be more effective and efficient to not have the arm straight. This is because the sponge is springy enough for you to generate power with a chicken wing arm...haha. But if you use a Hurricane rubber, an extended arm is better as it will help you to engage the sponge more with a lot more force. So, to me it is incorrect to say that the European style is less efficient. They are simply using a different type of rubber. Lastly, Jpen playing style also benefit from extended arm loop as it create monstrous driving loop.

Hmm. I will need IB66 to explain. Like you, this discussion may be getting too far past my level. :cool:

Is it referring to how far someone brings their hand or backswing back? I guess that would give a "straighter" arm if you are backswinging more. But that is a function of how much time the player has to prepare for a shot. More time = more backswing. That's not a fundamental function of two intrinsically different loops. Unless I'm understanding wrong :(

If IB66 is referring to how much the elbow is tucked...Ma Long tucks his elbow quite close to his body. Does he have a less efficient European loop?

 
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Hmm. I will need IB66 to explain. Like you, this discussion may be getting too far past my level. :cool:

Is it referring to how far someone brings their hand or backswing back? I guess that would give a "straighter" arm if you are backswinging more. But that is a function of how much time the player has to prepare for a shot. More time = more backswing. That's not a fundamental function of two intrinsically different loops. Unless I'm understanding wrong :(

If IB66 is referring to how much the elbow is tucked...Ma Long tucks his elbow quite close to his body. Does he have a less efficient European loop?


You can compare the video you post with what Timo Boll does. Both are correct as long as you engage the sponge :)
 
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You can compare the video you post with what Timo Boll does. Both are correct as long as you engage the sponge :)

To be clear, I don't believe that any one loop is more efficient or less than another at the pro level. Nor do I think geographic tendencies are the differentiator of efficiency. :) Sure, Timo tends to bring his hand/backswing back much less. But I am just trying to make sure that that is what people are talking about, first. I'm trying to clarify where the "straight arm" is coming from, because everyone bends their arm to some degree except for if you are playing a big counter loop way off the table or something.
 
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To be clear, I don't believe that any one loop is more efficient or less than another at the pro level. Nor do I think geographic tendencies are the differentiator of efficiency. :) Sure, Timo tends to bring his hand/backswing back much less. But I am just trying to make sure that that is what people are talking about, first.

Yes, that is what people are talking about.
 
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I have a feeling this conversation is going a bit too into the weeds...but what do you mean by looping with a straight arm? How do you snap the forearm and wrist if you are looping with a straight arm?
Straighter arm, not totally straight or rigid, for want of a better term a flattened out / elongated M shape. So right vertical line is your body, the ‘v’ is shoulder to elbow to wrist and the left vertical line is hand and blade pointing downwards (45ish degrees) and can then be snapped up.
both styles have the similar ‘ M shape’ but the Chinese style is stretched out (but not stretching to full reach) whereas the euro style is more compact.
the arm being slightly straighter also allows the force / power built up during the hip , chest and shoulder turn to be transferred through the arm slightly easier, a more direct path, shallower bends to navigate.
also during the swing they try to relax their arm muscles as much as possible, then when the wrist is snapped it helps to tense the arm muscles, the power is again transferred more efficiently, like a sort of shock wave through the muscles into the blade. Relaxed muscles will absorb the ‘shock wave’. A hammer isn’t made of jelly !!!! A fraction after contact the muscles are relaxed again.
hope this helps !!!!
 
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