Dignics 09c vs hurricane 3

zyu81 said:

I think Boll is the most extreme and obvious example. I'd still say forearm snap is a fundamental part of the loop for most Europeans and Chinese even if Boll doesn't do a ton of it in general. He definitely could be leaving something on the table but it works for him.

Bringing the backswing and hand back "straight arm" definitely has a time and place and it is optimal certain times, no doubt. But I think that perpetuating the idea that it is the only right way gives people the idea they need to do it on every shot to be playing optimally, and that is definitely not the case. There are a lot of situations where you want a shorter backswing. But I could still be missing the point of the discussion since I haven't thought too much into this until now.

Click to expand...

I don't think most players bring their backswing back straight arm, even the top Chinese players. Like I said it is a topic that I would like to discuss but it has a lot of nuance and being a lower level player, I am only saying what I see and may miss a lot of nuance. And I will state a lot of things that make people sound stupid even though I know no one is and I am probably not giving enough credit.

The main feature that I see as important is upper arm/elbow control. You need a tight backswing to avoid the upper arm drifting by itself relative to the body rotation.

What the Europeans seemed to notice is that if you backswing along the path of the swing, it is hard to retain tight control of the backswing if your arm is too straight. Often your upper arm will end up going behind your body when you need to hit a really powerful shot. To restrain this, they encourage bent arm strokes to make you line up with the ball. While Kreanga has a straighter arm than most Europeans, he backswings in a similar fashion.

When I look at the Chinese their solution when they want to fix this is to backswing very close to the body with a straight or bent arm to keep the elbow tight. Then they can adapt the size of the stroke on the forward swing as they choose to suit their body usage, footwork and leverage.

This is what I see on their practice loops as everyone wants to hit straight balls in practice as they want to hit multiple shots and not tax their practice partners too much. In matches it can be different.

Okay, since I have entered the Hornets nest, tell me why I am wrong.

NextLevel said:

I don't think most players bring their backswing back straight arm, even the top Chinese players. Like I said it is a topic that I would like to discuss but it has a lot of nuance and being a lower level player, I am only saying what I see and may miss a lot of nuance. And I will state a lot of things that make people sound stupid even though I know no one is and I am probably not giving enough credit.

The main feature that I see as important is upper arm/elbow control. You need a tight backswing to avoid the upper arm drifting by itself relative to the body rotation.

What the Europeans seemed to notice is that if you backswing along the path of the swing, it is hard to retain tight control of the backswing if your arm is too straight. Often your upper arm will end up going behind your body when you need to hit a really powerful shot. To restrain this, they encourage bent arm strokes to make you line up with the ball. While Kreanga has a straighter arm than most Europeans, he backswings in a similar fashion.

When I look at the Chinese their solution when they want to fix this is to backswing very close to the body with a straight or bent arm to keep the elbow tight. Then they can adapt the size of the stroke on the forward swing as they choose to suit their body usage, footwork and leverage.

This is what I see on their practice loops as everyone wants to hit straight balls in practice as they want to hit multiple shots and not tax their practice partners too much. In matches it can be different.

Okay, since I have entered the Hornets nest, tell me why I am wrong.

Click to expand...

I don't think any of what you said is wrong, nor was I trying to imply that in my earlier posts if you got that impression. I guess the part you highlighted is what I've been trying to convey as a good rule of thumb that anyone can take and adapt for themselves. Maybe I am interpreting backswing in a different way than others. But when I say backswing, I think the general idea is to bring the arm back, without taking the elbow too far away from the body, and extending the forearm back as far as you are comfortable with or as the situation dictates. Whether that results in the arm being fully extended or only partially (due to the degree of how far back you pull the forearm to extend the elbow towards 180 degrees) can vary shot to shot, person to person, etc. I don't know if my blabber is making sense here...

This stuff is easier to explain in person than over text...

zyu81 said:

I know that trying to learn how to play a sport by breaking down the physics or science of it, is not the way to go.

Click to expand...

Physical ability is definitely most important. People are adaptable and will eventually find the right way given enough time. However, there is way too much bad information on these forums. Knowing the physics of TT will help you know what to achieve faster rather than a slow long learning process.

There is a video of Dan playing an Omron robot. Do you think that robot learned to play by trial and error?
I think the robot can read or estimate spin now. If so, the only limitation the robot has is mechanical.

Boll would've achieved more with his right hand.

NextLevel said:

I don't agree, but the discussion is nuanced. Obviously, Timo Boll is one of the best players in the world, so it is all relative. But I do think that most Europeans are limited in the technical options they can bring to a ball when they need to put it away. Usually, the Koreans and Chinese don't have this problem.

Click to expand...

Well, I really opened a can of worms !!!

These days, as with all sports, running gaits, swing paths, kicking actions, are heavily analysed by coaches and scientists so that the ‘best’ way to achieve the end result is formulated, A lot of the time it’s small gains, if you can make 5 small gains in your technique, especially when playing at the highest level, this can result in winning more matches. This also includes the ‘mental’ side of things not just the physical. ( & there are mental techniques that can be used)

I’m the type of person that likes / needs to know why we do things in certain ways, so if a coach asks me to turn less, or drop my right shoulder, I’ll try to do as asked but will want an explanation of why and what’s the benefit of doing so !!!!! Sometimes I think my coach is probably thinking ‘just do it and you’ll see’ !!!!! But you don’t really ‘learn’.

the starting position with the bat being almost behind, has at least 1 small gain, it loads the weight onto the back foot slightly better, and I mean slightly !!!

As for finishing off points, I’m with you on that NextLevel, but I definitely think the Europeans are learning and adapting accordingly and pretty quickly!!!!

IB66 said:

Well, I really opened a can of worms !!!

These days, as with all sports, running gaits, swing paths, kicking actions, are heavily analysed by coaches and scientists so that the ‘best’ way to achieve the end result is formulated, A lot of the time it’s small gains, if you can make 5 small gains in your technique, especially when playing at the highest level, this can result in winning more matches. This also includes the ‘mental’ side of things not just the physical. ( & there are mental techniques that can be used)

I’m the type of person that likes / needs to know why we do things in certain ways, so if a coach asks me to turn less, or drop my right shoulder, I’ll try to do as asked but will want an explanation of why and what’s the benefit of doing so !!!!! Sometimes I think my coach is probably thinking ‘just do it and you’ll see’ !!!!! But you don’t really ‘learn’.

the starting position with the bat being almost behind, has at least 1 small gain, it loads the weight onto the back foot slightly better, and I mean slightly !!!

As for finishing off points, I’m with you on that NextLevel, but I definitely think the Europeans are learning and adapting accordingly and pretty quickly!!!!

Click to expand...

It's a good can of worms to open. At the least, it's more interesting than discussing equipment changes all the time.

I will say, the running gaits/swing paths/etc. which you mention, that is true, but it is also nuanced as well. Those are analyses that are typically done on already elite athletes who are looking for the tiniest extra edge or to prevent injury. So while breaking down these small biomechanics can help, it shouldn't be thought of as the end-all-be-all of improvement... at least for most of us here.

zeio said:

Boll would've achieved more with his right hand.

Click to expand...

Is it straighter ????? !!!!!!!!

brokenball said:

Physical ability is definitely most important. People are adaptable and will eventually find the right way given enough time. However, there is way too much bad information on these forums. Knowing the physics of TT will help you know what to achieve faster rather than a slow long learning process.

There is a video of Dan playing an Omron robot. Do you think that robot learned to play by trial and error?
I think the robot can read or estimate spin now. If so, the only limitation the robot has is mechanical.

Click to expand...

You are giving too much credit to your arguement and no, active learning of physics
is not needed but body mechanics and anatomy are better to learn to be a good player.

brokenball said:

Physical ability is definitely most important. People are adaptable and will eventually find the right way given enough time. However, there is way too much bad information on these forums. Knowing the physics of TT will help you know what to achieve faster rather than a slow long learning process.

There is a video of Dan playing an Omron robot. Do you think that robot learned to play by trial and error?
I think the robot can read or estimate spin now. If so, the only limitation the robot has is mechanical.

Click to expand...

Yes. Time to brush up your Japanese.

https://www.omron.co.jp/technology/omrontechnics/2019/20190510-asai.html

ロボットが卓球を行うためには、高速高精度なピン球のセンシング技術やラケットの動作計画技術、高精度なコントロール技術が要求されるため、ロボティクスの研究題材として古くから研究されている3）。特に近年では、高精度な返球をするための、ラケットの動作計画技術が盛んに研究されている。回転したピン球を返球するため、回転速度の影響を考慮した空力モデルや衝突モデルを用いたモデルベースのアプローチ4,5）や、ラケットの動作とピン球の軌跡の因果関係に着目した学習ベースのアプローチ6）などが提案されている。さらに、人のような柔軟なラケットの動作を実現するため、人によるダイレクトティーチングで生成された動作を強化学習することで返球精度を高めるアプローチ7）や、トルクの最適性を制約条件に組み込んだ最適制御問題のアプローチ8）などが提案されている。

Click to expand...

As for "too much bad information on these forums," you don't get it Pete, that doesn't matter.

And one of the things I've always found is that...you've got to start with the player experience and work backwards to the technique/physics. You can't start with the technique/physics and try to figure out where you're gonna try to hit it...

Aside from the ones i mentioned, physical conditioning, study of techniques and situation practice are bettwr to learn than physics. By the way, pnachtawey, have you developed a college level player that has a decent competitive level that has actively been taught the physicsand reached higher levels of play from development to competition?

zeio said:

Yes. Time to brush up your Japanese.

https://www.omron.co.jp/technology/omrontechnics/2019/20190510-asai.html


As for "too much bad information on these forums," you don't get it Pete, that doesn't matter.

And one of the things I've always found is that...you've got to start with the player experience and work backwards to the technique/physics. You can't start with the technique/physics and try to figure out where you're gonna try to hit it...

Click to expand...

Brushing up on my Japanese is one thing, degree level mathematics as well !!!!!

zyu81 said:

Click to expand...

He will not believe and will still argue that physocs is better. Though when confronted about actual applications of his ideas he will not be able to produce one. He always thinks that physics is the answer and it is fair to say he is a science driven guy and no problem with it but if he claims to do it in the name of science, surely he has concrete data or experience to do it otherwise, what is science if it is not backed up by facts and by facts i mean things that have aleady been applied and achieved.

zeio said:

Yes. Time to brush up your Japanese.

https://www.omron.co.jp/technology/omrontechnics/2019/20190510-asai.html


As for "too much bad information on these forums," you don't get it Pete, that doesn't matter.

And one of the things I've always found is that...you've got to start with the player experience and work backwards to the technique/physics. You can't start with the technique/physics and try to figure out where you're gonna try to hit it...

Click to expand...

not sure I get what you mean by ‘player experience’ ? A player could have been playing for 20yrs with unorthodox technique, doesn’t mean they are inexperienced. Or do you mean asking questions like how long have you been playing ? Have you been coached before ? Etc

yogi_bear said:

He will not believe and will still argue that physocs is better. Though when confronted about actual applications of his ideas he will not be able to produce one. He always thinks that physics is the answer and it is fair to say he is a science driven guy and no problem with it but if he claims to do it in the name of science, surely he has concrete data or experience to do it otherwise, what is science if it is not backed up by facts and by facts i mean things that have aleady been applied and achieved.

Click to expand...

There is just too much that goes into table tennis - being able to break down what is happening on a simple level isn't going to do much in the way of turning that into playing results. Prodigy kids who get started early don't know a thing about physics, yet they can understand the game... there are also too many variables that go into everything, in the end, the human element is going to dominate the outcomes more than whatever should be happening from a physics or scientific standpoint.

zyu81 said:

There is just too much that goes into table tennis - being able to break down what is happening on a simple level isn't going to do much in the way of turning that into playing results. Prodigy kids who get started early don't know a thing about physics, yet they can understand the game... there are also too many variables that go into everything, in the end, the human element is going to dominate the outcomes more than whatever should be happening from a physics or scientific standpoint.

Click to expand...

I agree on this and to add, countries like japan, china and germany all have advanced types of coaching and they do not teach physics to their players since pnachtawey thinks it is a better idea? Is he implying that the above teams have not thought of this or it is simply that these teams know from the start that his idea is really not needed?

yogi_bear said:

I agree on this and to add, countries like japan, china and germany all have advanced types of coaching and they do not teach physics to their players since pnachtawey thinks it is a better idea? Is he implying that the above teams have not thought of this or it is simply that these teams know from the start that his idea is really not needed?

Click to expand...

Who is that? I think you mean brokenball.

Hey, you guys should know that brokenball is extremely well respected in his field. [emoji2]


Sent from my NSA SpyPhone from Sector 13D-SR13Z74 Sub Level 29X Fort Meade, Maryland

zyu81 said:

I don't think any of what you said is wrong, nor was I trying to imply that in my earlier posts if you got that impression. I guess the part you highlighted is what I've been trying to convey as a good rule of thumb that anyone can take and adapt for themselves. Maybe I am interpreting backswing in a different way than others. But when I say backswing, I think the general idea is to bring the arm back, without taking the elbow too far away from the body, and extending the forearm back as far as you are comfortable with or as the situation dictates. Whether that results in the arm being fully extended or only partially (due to the degree of how far back you pull the forearm to extend the elbow towards 180 degrees) can vary shot to shot, person to person, etc. I don't know if my blabber is making sense here...

This stuff is easier to explain in person than over text...

Click to expand...

I don't know if it is so much about better for a player than about being unable to change habits formed as a child that got you to a high level. Other than that we likely agree. The thing is that the Chinese approach to me leads to the ability to deliver a wider range of shots than the top European players like Boll and Dima or even Freitas etc. typically do. Whether that is better for the player I don't know but if I was coaching a child, I would try to coach the Chinese approach actively. Fan Zhendong and Ma Long have proven to me that it doesn't compromise your backhand.

zyu81 said:

There is just too much that goes into table tennis - being able to break down what is happening on a simple level isn't going to do much in the way of turning that into playing results. Prodigy kids who get started early don't know a thing about physics, yet they can understand the game... there are also too many variables that go into everything, in the end, the human element is going to dominate the outcomes more than whatever should be happening from a physics or scientific standpoint.

Click to expand...

Yes and this is why I usually like to know the level of the player I am talking to when discussing these issues. It can sound rude or dismissive, but it can be important to get a rough idea of what one is up against when discussing an issue. I don't know any serious player who thinks an explicit understanding of the physics of table tennis improved their strokes. Usually taking such understanding seriously is a trait of an adult learner who tried to learn the sport by adopting theories and language. Most kids got good by copying other kids or adults who are good players. This is probably as one of my friends likes to put it the biggest advantage China has over the rest of the world when it comes to TT development.