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  1. igorponger is offline
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    #1

    Wildish errors by players -- so vexing, so abundant.


    © ITTF Equipment Committee
    Rufford Harrison (USA) and Odd Gustavsen (Norway)

    THE CONTROL OF RACKET COVERINGS

    23/07/2002

    As everybody must know by now, there is concern about the lack of attractiveness of our sport. When most rallies last only two or three strokes, there is very little opportunity for the spectator to see what is happening, to understand the tactics employed by each player, even to know why a player lost a particular point. A possible reason for this situation is that the ball is so fast that virtually every return is a stroke in desperation; the player just has time to reach the ball, but very little time in which to think about making a good return. Even if he does get the ball back, his opponent will have exactly the same problem, so that the probability of the ball going of or of winning the point is probably higher than that it will be returned. This is not a good situation and it has resulted, of course, from the development of spinny, speedy racket coverings. The obvious solution is to control those racket coverings so as to reduce the speed and spin slightly, but not too much; we do not want to change the character of the sport entirely. <....>
    With that in mind, the ITTF Council (*)(**) at its last meeting instructed the Equipment Committee to develop control methods for limiting the properties of the racket coverings. But that is all that the Council said, and it is our job to determine how best to do it.
    * The ITTF Council Meeting aforementioned took place within the WC 1999, Eindhoven, Netherlands.
    ** All then Council proceedings still remain in force de jure.
    Last edited by igorponger; 11-01-2020 at 12:31 AM.

  2. Baal is offline
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    #2
    Now we have a much slower ball and rallies are even shorter

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    #3
    Edit: Oh wait, I didn't see that it was from 2002. So I deleted what I wrote.

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    Last edited by nymose; 11-01-2020 at 01:27 AM.

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    #4
    And then the ball got changed twice.. Tsk..

  5. zeio is offline
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    #5
    Here is the thing. The ITTF is run by these old-timers who had their careers cut short by "sponge". As such, they are relics left behind by modern table tennis. Because of that, they never know how to market the modern form of the sport after their careers.

    One big variable they get wrong is that table tennis is a participant sport, and a reaction sport at that. It's never a spectator sport. That's the reason I keep emphasizing about player experience. The constant push for longer rallies is an utter waste of time as I could just go watch badminton instead. Table tennis is unique among racket sports as it is more 3D. What makes it attracting is the spin that makes the ball break so much in the air and how players could scoop the ball back up from below the playing surface. You won't find that in other racket sports. Market that. Instead, we had a president who concluded flattening the sport is good simply because that's how tennis does it. Guess what? I could go watch tennis instead.

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    #6
    Change ball to two color would be interesting.

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    #7
    Ditto for slightly higher net.

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    #8
    Two colour balls. BAN all non wood only blades, sorry my beautiful inner ALC ... And remove the larc and approve: pips all non tenor types, mark v, sriver (not g series), hurricane 3, skyline 3, neottec hiromi, donic JP-03(others too fast) and other old gen rubbers.
    Much more fun would be had imo if we all used pre made sriver or mark v

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by vvk1
    Ditto for slightly higher net.
    I guess that would force players to have a less closed bat angle and to put a bit more spin on the ball. Players would probably have to use slightly slower equipment. So Yeah I guess that could be a pretty good idea actually.

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by passifid
    Two colour balls. BAN all non wood only blades, sorry my beautiful inner ALC ... And remove the larc and approve: pips all non tenor types, mark v, sriver (not g series), hurricane 3, skyline 3, neottec hiromi, donic JP-03(others too fast) and other old gen rubbers.
    Much more fun would be had imo if we all used pre made sriver or mark v
    Aarh yeah, I guess it could be fun for me just playing with BT777 and cj8000. And together with a slightly higher net that would make sense.

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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by nymose
    I guess that would force players to have a less closed bat angle and to put a bit more spin on the ball. Players would probably have to use slightly slower equipment. So Yeah I guess that could be a pretty good idea actually.

    Sendt fra min SM-A202F med Tapatalk
    And play somewhat further away from the table in order to create the arc. I like to spin the ball more than flat hit (and have a tendency to give up the table too soon) so, yeah, that would suit me fine :-)

  12. zeio is offline
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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    The constant push for longer rallies is an utter waste of time as I could just go watch badminton instead.
    Wondering just how much longer an average badminton rally lasts, yours truly looked up some numbers. Not disappointed. Double that of table tennis, and the MS rally is longer than the WS rally.

    Table Tennis

    Source:
    https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...l=1#post284963
    http://www.cnki.com.cn/Article/CJFDT...Y201902012.htm
    2-6 shots make up 75-83% of all rallies for Men's World Cup 2014-2018.





    Source: https://jcoachings.jp/jcoachings2012...0e80d394a3.pdf
    London 2012, from prelim to final
    All
    MS 4.4±0.9
    WS 5.6±2.6

    Attacker-Attacker
    MS 4.1±0.6
    WS 4.3±0.8

    Attacker-Defender
    MS 5.8±1.2
    WS 7.9±2.0

    Defender-Defender
    MS 6.5
    WS 17.6

    Badminton

    Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457257/
    Rio 2016, from group to elimination
    MS
    Variables related to match Group stage Eliminatory phase
    Longest rally (s) 43.11 ± 18.04 45.30 ± 10.24
    Longest rally (strokes) 39.20 ± 13.02 42.76 ± 9.04
    Average rally (s) 9.53 ± 2.58 10.23 ± 1.88
    Average rally (strokes) 7.95 ± 1.45 8.92 ± 1.57

    WS
    Longest rally (s) 36.52 ± 15.05 38.50 ± 7.37
    Longest rally (strokes) 28.64 ± 8.35 34.16 ± 9.22
    Average rally (s) 9.35 ± 2.61 10.50 ± 1.74
    Average rally (strokes) 6.64 ± 1.40 7.58 ± 1.28

    MD
    Longest rally (s) 42.30 ± 19.96 33.94 ± 10.20
    Longest rally (strokes) 43.29 ± 10.11 42.41 ± 12.38
    Average rally (s) 6.70 ± 2.16 7.23 ± 1.67
    Average rally (strokes) 7.02 ± 1.11 7.76 ± 1.78

    WD
    Longest rally (s) 54.33 ± 18.58 51.87 ± 13.77
    Longest rally (strokes) 58.41 ± 15.10 56.37 ± 13.98
    Average rally (s) 10.33 ± 2.23 10.37 ± 1.99
    Average rally (strokes) 9.91 ± 2.06 10.62 ± 1.70

    XD
    Longest rally (s) 32.66 ± 10.97 37.00 ± 6.96
    Longest rally (strokes) 36.83 ± 8.38 41.25 ± 6.96
    Average rally (s) 7.58 ± 1.79 7.87 ± 1.20
    Average rally (strokes) 7.04 ± 1.11 7.75 ± 1.34

    Tennis

    Source:
    https://www.braingametennis.com/dirt...-rally-length/
    https://www.mattspoint.com/blog/rall...ng-perspective
    MS only, but same trend for WS

    2015 Australian Open: Men's Rally Length
    0-4 Shots = 70%
    5-8 Shots = 20%
    9+ Shots = 10%

    2016: Roland Garros & US Open Rally Length
    Rally Length Roland Garros 2016 US Open 2016
    0-4 Shots 66.9% 68.0%
    5-8 Shots 21.2% 21.3%
    9+ Shots 11.9% 10.7%

    2017: Roland Garros & US Open Rally Length
    Rally Length Roland Garros 2017 US Open 2017
    0-4 Shots 70.7% 67.8%
    5-8 Shots 19.4% 21.1%
    9+ Shots 10.0% 11.0%

    2018: Roland Garros & US Open Rally Length
    Rally Length Roland Garros 2018 US Open 2018
    0-4 Shots 68.2% 68.2%
    5-8 Shots 21.5% 21.1%
    9+ Shots 10.3% 10.7%

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    Last edited by zeio; 11-01-2020 at 06:18 PM.
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    Wondering just how much longer an average badminton rally lasts, yours truly looked up some numbers. Not disappointed. Double that of table tennis, and the MS rally is longer than the WS rally.

    Table Tennis

    Source:
    https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...l=1#post284963
    http://www.cnki.com.cn/Article/CJFDT...Y201902012.htm
    2-6 shots make up 75-83% of all rallies for Men's World Cup 2014-2018.





    Source: https://jcoachings.jp/jcoachings2012...0e80d394a3.pdf
    London 2012, from prelim to final
    All
    MS 4.4±0.9
    WS 5.6±2.6

    Attacker-Attacker
    MS 4.1±0.6
    WS 4.3±0.8

    Attacker-Defender
    MS 5.8±1.2
    WS 7.9±2.0

    Defender-Defender
    MS 6.5
    WS 17.6

    Badminton

    Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457257/
    Rio 2016, from group to elimination
    MS
    Variables related to matchGroup stageEliminatory phase
    Longest rally (s)43.11 ± 18.0445.30 ± 10.24
    Longest rally (strokes)39.20 ± 13.0242.76 ± 9.04
    Average rally (s)9.53 ± 2.5810.23 ± 1.88
    Average rally (strokes)7.95 ± 1.458.92 ± 1.57

    WS
    Longest rally (s)36.52 ± 15.0538.50 ± 7.37
    Longest rally (strokes)28.64 ± 8.3534.16 ± 9.22
    Average rally (s)9.35 ± 2.6110.50 ± 1.74
    Average rally (strokes)6.64 ± 1.407.58 ± 1.28

    MD
    Longest rally (s)42.30 ± 19.9633.94 ± 10.20
    Longest rally (strokes)43.29 ± 10.1142.41 ± 12.38
    Average rally (s)6.70 ± 2.167.23 ± 1.67
    Average rally (strokes)7.02 ± 1.117.76 ± 1.78

    WD
    Longest rally (s)54.33 ± 18.5851.87 ± 13.77
    Longest rally (strokes)58.41 ± 15.1056.37 ± 13.98
    Average rally (s)10.33 ± 2.2310.37 ± 1.99
    Average rally (strokes)9.91 ± 2.0610.62 ± 1.70

    XD
    Longest rally (s)32.66 ± 10.9737.00 ± 6.96
    Longest rally (strokes)36.83 ± 8.3841.25 ± 6.96
    Average rally (s)7.58 ± 1.797.87 ± 1.20
    Average rally (strokes)7.04 ± 1.117.75 ± 1.34

    Tennis

    Source:
    https://www.braingametennis.com/dirt...-rally-length/
    https://www.mattspoint.com/blog/rall...ng-perspective
    MS only, but same trend for WS

    2015 Australian Open: Men's Rally Length
    0-4 Shots = 70%
    5-8 Shots = 20%
    9+ Shots = 10%

    2016: Roland Garros & US Open Rally Length
    Rally LengthRoland Garros 2016US Open 2016
    0-4 Shots66.9%68.0%
    5-8 Shots21.2%21.3%
    9+ Shots11.9%10.7%

    2017: Roland Garros & US Open Rally Length
    Rally LengthRoland Garros 2017US Open 2017
    0-4 Shots70.7%67.8%
    5-8 Shots19.4%21.1%
    9+ Shots10.0%11.0%

    2018: Roland Garros & US Open Rally Length
    Rally LengthRoland Garros 2018US Open 2018
    0-4 Shots68.2%68.2%
    5-8 Shots21.5%21.1%
    9+ Shots10.3%10.7%
    I do have a tendency to enjoy watching womens tabletennis matches more.

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    #14
    But in this situation: Why would anyone/so many get rid of the excitement at 10-10? More and more leagues and tournaments are implementing "first to 11 (or 7), win by one". 10-10 is for me the best thing in table tennis, and everyone are sitting on the edge of their seats. With "win by one" you reduce the exciting moments a lot..... Really, really strange in my opinion...

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    ... table tennis is a participant sport...
    Exactly. If you want more fans you need more players. Hard to appreciate what's happening if you don't play.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    Table tennis is unique among racket sports as it is more 3D. What makes it attracting is the spin that makes the ball break so much in the air and how players could scoop the ball back up from below the playing surface. You won't find that in other racket sports. Market that.
    Start by giving us better video angles. The standard high angle view flattens perspective too much. Advertisers will have to understand that their logos can't be in frame all the time if they want people to watch the show.

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    #16
    I have a couple of questions!!

    1) table tennis and ping pong.

    Is table tennis the F1 version, in other words technology biased, equipment performance biased, by this I mean maximising speed and spin?? In general terms maxing out !!!

    Is Ping Pong, lets say the F2 car version ??? Equipment is the same for the players, therefore it’s the players skill that make a difference???

    2) Which version is gaining momentum?? As far as being a spectator sport?? Ping Pong or Table Tennis??

    What I’m getting at, is that if you want a spectator sport in the sort of way that the ITTF are saying that’s needed, then it could be Ping Pong

    Would a compromise between the 2 be any different??

    A standard for the maximum properties a blade, sponge and top sheet can have, a beefed up version of ping pong / watered down version of current table tennis !!!

    Would the top players in table tennis be the top players at Ping Pong if that’s all that was available?? Probably.

    In the West, table tennis, (rightly or wrongly) has always been a minority sport, when the bats were no sponge pimple out, basically a minority sport regardless of the equipment in hand!!!

    At present the way table tennis can be viewed is either live at the venue, or on TV, TV has been around for years, so the question is, does TT make good viewing ???
    If it truly did make good viewing (for spectators in general) then buy now it would be on some sort of major channel on a weekly basis. Unfortunately TT isn’t.

    What we have to ask is as a player what do I want from the sport?? I think Zeio is correct, it’s a players sport.

    As a player do you want longer rallies?? Do you want loads of spin, faster / slower??
    I think the reason that speed of the ball has been seen to be very important to players is that it finishes the point off quicker.
    Is this a good thing?? From a players point of view is this really enjoyable??
    Or is it more enjoyable to play more strokes, work on the tactics, create an opening THEN blast it past your opponent. Rather than blast of have the ball blasted past you within 3,4 or 5 strokes???

    There is a choice Table Tennis or Ping Pong, I suppose the real question is IS ANOTHER VERSION NEEDED???

    less speed, adequate spin, higher net etc

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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by nymose
    I do have a tendency to enjoy watching womens tabletennis matches more.

    Sendt fra min SM-A202F med Tapatalk
    like TT, Badminton is not a ‘spectator‘ sport (in general) ie TT and Badminton fans are usually players rather than the general public.

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Evil
    Exactly. If you want more fans you need more players. Hard to appreciate what's happening if you don't play.


    Start by giving us better video angles. The standard high angle view flattens perspective too much. Advertisers will have to understand that their logos can't be in frame all the time if they want people to watch the show.
    That’s the issue for both Badminton and Table Tennis, the TV angles don’t do it justice, but I think that isn’t the issue, I don’t think there is currently a good angle to Film at !!

    There are slightly better angles but you probably need some sort of 3D viewing or virtual viewing. Possibly not ‘live’ viewing?? Delayed by however long it would take to edit into a really good ‘spectator’ format!!!

    i have seen different camera angles for TT and there’s definitely better options.

    I know that they have tried to film Badminton with various camera angles, and it would appear that those in charge know that the current version is best for badminton!!!??? Not sure if they do for TT

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by IB66
    like TT, Badminton is not a ‘spectator‘ sport (in general) ie TT and Badminton fans are usually players rather than the general public.
    Might be. As a player at least, I still have a tendency to enjoy watching womens tabletennis more than mens. Rallies has a tendency to be longer. There is a tendency to be more combination players than in mens matches. And that plays a part. But when the men occationally comes in to longer loop rallies with big powerful strokes, I'll find it significantly more enjoyable than most womens matches.

    When I play myself, I enjoy very short rallies if I'm the one winning the point, haha. But I do enjoy longer rallies no matter who wins the point. Sometimes it feels like I won the point, even though I didn't. But I guess I won something much more valuable. And I guess that's also the feeling that I get when I watch other players longer rallies.

    I've never really been into sports, so I rarely watch it. I've tried though, but I easily get bored. Like with team sports for instance. I get tired in my head watching it. But I think I may have ADD, so when there's a lot of Information going on at once, I get overhelmed (that kind of head is sadly not made for tt). Sports where there's a net in the middle of the playing field are usually easier for me to follow. Tennis can be a bit tedious because the ball and the players travels longer before contact. That ruins the dynamic tension for me a bit. And the matches are sooo long. And service is so incredibly difficult to execute even on pro level. Volley is probably the only team sport that I can enjoy watching.

    Golf, dart, snooker, billard, bowling, biking, racing (of any kind), swimming, running, boxing etc.etc. (probably just almost every sport) Are SO boring to watch for me, but they still makes the major channels all the time. I need that relatively quick dynamic back and foward tension between players. Football/Soccer has it somewhat, but the ball and the players are everywhere. I can't watch it for longer periods. I almost fall a sleep.

    Sorry for my slight ranting, but those are just my small and personal opinions

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by nymose
    Might be. As a player at least, I still have a tendency to enjoy watching womens tabletennis more than mens. Rallies has a tendency to be longer. There is a tendency to be more combination players than in mens matches. And that plays a part. But when the men occationally comes in to longer loop rallies with big powerful strokes, I'll find it significantly more enjoyable than most womens matches.

    When I play myself, I enjoy very short rallies if I'm the one winning the point, haha. But I do enjoy longer rallies no matter who wins the point. Sometimes it feels like I won the point, even though I didn't. But I guess I won something much more valuable. And I guess that's also the feeling that I get when I watch other players longer rallies.

    I've never really been into sports, so I rarely watch it. I've tried though, but I easily get bored. Like with team sports for instance. I get tired in my head watching it. But I think I may have ADD, so when there's a lot of Information going on at once, I get overhelmed (that kind of head is sadly not made for tt). Sports where there's a net in the middle of the playing field are usually easier for me to follow. Tennis can be a bit tedious because the ball and the players travels longer before contact. That ruins the dynamic tension for me a bit. And the matches are sooo long. And service is so incredibly difficult to execute even on pro level. Volley is probably the only team sport that I can enjoy watching.

    Golf, dart, snooker, billard, bowling, biking, racing (of any kind), swimming, running, boxing etc.etc. (probably just almost every sport) Are SO boring to watch for me, but they still makes the major channels all the time. I need that relatively quick dynamic back and foward tension between players. Football/Soccer has it somewhat, but the ball and the players are everywhere. I can't watch it for longer periods. I almost fall a sleep.

    Sorry for my slight ranting, but those are just my small and personal opinions

    Sendt fra min SM-A202F med Tapatalk
    As far as football / soccer is concerned why wait for a generally longer period of time for a ball to go in a net, when you can watch TT / Tennis (or in the case of badminton a shuttle) go into a net on a much more regular basis !!!

    I was brought up watching sport, if there was any form of sport on the TV when I was a kid, that channel was chosen ( huge choice of 3 channels) !!!

    it’s strange really, snooker became really popular overnight when colour tv became available, but what a slow sport!! Generally pretty boring, bowls to, Golf 4 - 5 hrs for a round, but all day event if you watch from 1st tee to last ball putted in, cricket, yawn!! Rugby, ok but !!! and so on.
    Darts, that’s got the spectator side of things really sorted out!! Everyone there watching is usually P####d !!! and can get away with almost anything!! And the actual matches are generally fast and exciting, with ‘characters’ participating!!!

    Maybe that’s what TT needs, fancy dress, loads of beer for the spectators and shorter 3 point games, but 1st to 11 sets!!

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