USA Table Tennis at it's finest

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Didn't really imagine this thread would become a whole US vs Belgium thing. Mike's ranking at 739 is ridiculous if you look at the level of many players ranked between 300-500 in the world. Based on those two's results, I would say they are better than Michael but definitely not worlds apart like you seem to be implying.

As for Fang Bo's insane counterloop, do you really think Fang Bo wouldn't do the same thing to Lauric Jean and Nuytinck? Lol. Useless evidence. Nobody said anything about him being able to match up to world class competition, and I don't see that happening from the Belgian side either.
 
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Well stated.

To phillpong: The prize money at the US Open is 'not bad' and the people of the host city are very welcoming and enthused about the players coming. I wasn't trying to throw down the gauntlet or anything, but well. :) There are some 12 years in the Milpitas CA level that would really enjoy the chance to play against great European players in the ITTF Junior Circuit so please consider coming. :) They are nice kids and they only have that one coach here to teach them anything. No threat at all, just really nice kids. Come play them! :)
 
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World rankings are pretty useless here because many US juniors simply don't get to play a lot of ITTF events. But let's at least mention the rankings of those players who all finished behind Michael at the Trials:
Fan Yiyong 352, Han Xiao 439, Mark Hazinski 454, Adam Hugh 509, Timothy Wang 571
So we're looking at a level around 300-400 in the world.

Timothy Wang actually played a while in Belgium or Holland, his results might provide some objective comparison. But he's still improving too, although he's a little older than Michael.

I'm not saying that Michael Landers is better than the top Belgian juniors (he's not), but the idea that table tennis in the US is lightyears below the current level in Belgium is ridiculous. If you were talking about Germany or France, ok - but Belgium, where TT is just as "marginal"? Besides, the current Belgian players are barely good enough to get by in the German second division...

As for the US Open, it's attended by quite a few top 100/150 players: Keinath, Kamal Achanta, Wang Zhen... no Belgian player except for Saive would have a chance to reach the semifinal.

And as for Fang Bo, well, he even beat Boll in the Superleague. Not a good benchmark in this context.
 
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Oh, I forgot: Michael's Philippine coach is Ernesto Ebuen, world ranked 474. At the 2008 US Open, he beat Dany Lo of France, who plays in the French first division. The Belgian #2 also plays in the French first division: Yannick Vostes. Unfortunately he has 1 win and 15 losses so far, and his team is in last place...
 
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Oh, I forgot: Michael's Philippine coach is Ernesto Ebuen, world ranked 474. At the 2008 US Open, he beat Dany Lo of France, who plays in the French first division. The Belgian #2 also plays in the French first division: Yannick Vostes. Unfortunately he has 1 win and 15 losses so far, and his team is in last place...

Your first post essentially restated mine, but this one is very interesting and puts it i perspective. Thanks for posting :)
 
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@ Alan - Michael hands down would not be able to win against players his own age and around his rating level if he did not have his service game. I've spoken with many players who play him and besides his service Michael has no strong points. Sure he rallies and likes to win that way, but his level of play and skill are below that of Han, Peter, Adam, Mark you name it. Even though he did exceptional at the Trials that had less to do with the fact that he is more skilled but rather than Ernesto is a fantastic coach. I spoke to them during the trials as I was directing the live feed and they were constantly discussing tactics and how to beat each player he was up against. Without Ernesto and his great service game Michael would be significantly lower in rating even as low as 2350-2400.
 
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I've heard the same about Ma Lin: without his service game he wouldn't be half as good as he is. Oh, and it's the same for Waldner. And for Liu Guoliang.

Seriously, what kind of "analysis" is that? Serving and receiving is a big part of table tennis. So is tactics. Sounds like sour grapes from certain players.
 
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I've heard the same about Ma Lin: without his service game he wouldn't be half as good as he is. Oh, and it's the same for Waldner. And for Liu Guoliang.

Seriously, what kind of "analysis" is that? Serving and receiving is a big part of table tennis. So is tactics. Sounds like sour grapes from certain players.

It is no analysis. The guy finished first. To try to figure out a way to say he's not as good as the players he finished ahead of is nonsense. Ernesto is a very fine coach and he's been working with Ernesto for several years. He has done a good job with him and he has a fine knowledge of the game. But it's not like he is out there playing it for him! I don't understand Richard's unwillingness to give Mr. Landers credit. Maybe after he has seen more matches he'll understand better. Michael is pretty well-liked, BTW, and it's dangerous and unfair to quote 'what other players say'. No one at that level wants to lose. You should not pass on something you overheard as a quote from the opponent, it will come back to haunt you!
 
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As of 2011 we had just over 8000 Domestic players and a little less than 3500 foreign players. So total in our tournaments we get about 11,500 players over the year in the USATT Sanctioned events.

I'm sorry, but is that a typo? Did you mean to say 'over the year(s)? There are nowhere near that many unique individuals playing sanctioned tournaments in the United States annually. 8000 is the total membership figure and only about 30% of them are tournament active. That membership number also includes Honorary and Lifetime members, some of whom have not lifted a paddle in years. Some of them are dead. Since no one notifies USATT of a death, a Lifetime member may stay on the membership rolls for years until its pointed out. Likewise, that number of 3500 Foreign or guest players is a total EVER playing here, going back about 20 years in the current ratings database. There are definitely NOT 3500 members of other associations playing tournaments every year in the US. You can check this with Joyce at HQ, she's the membership coordinator. Or ask Robert Blackwell at Killerspin. He did a very extensive analysis of US Tournament participation for the USOC a few years ago. His figures tracked it over several years time and presented it both to the Board of Directors and the High Performance Committee , if I recall correctly.
 
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The video was just an illustration. In my previous posts i didn't compare Landers to the CNT but to some young players from Belgium, i wanted to show that even these much higher ranked players are nothing on the international scene (international means all players, not only China, like Korea, Japan, Sweden , France, Germany ...

For example Jean Lauric when he was 13 years old he looked promising. He went to China to train hard ... Some people saw a new Jean-Michel Saive (Saive was ranked world number 1 during 15 months in the nineties) in him. Today nobody even thinks about him in this perspective.

In the first post of this thread, the poster states "It's USA table tennis at its finest and I think it shows that we have a much stronger future than people may think."

I think the poster was just way too optimistic here, and it illustrates how patriotism can blur a clear vision on the facts, which can be dangerous as history has learned us all.
 
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The video was just an illustration. In my previous posts i didn't compare Landers to the CNT but to some young players from Belgium, i wanted to show that even these much higher ranked players are nothing on the international scene (international means all players, not only China, like Korea, Japan, Sweden , France, Germany ...

For example Jean Lauric when he was 13 years old he looked promising. He went to China to train hard ... Some people saw a new Jean-Michel Saive (Saive was ranked world number 1 during 15 months in the nineties) in him. Today nobody even thinks about him in this perspective.

In the first post of this thread, the poster states "It's USA table tennis at its finest and I think it shows that we have a much stronger future than people may think."

I think the poster was just way too optimistic here, and it illustrates how patriotism can blur a clear vision on the facts, which can be dangerous as history has learned us all.

Well it depends. If the poster thinks that 'people' have extremely low expectations of USA in terms of table tennis, the statement could be correct, and I think it is. Also the WR comparison doesn't really apply. The Belgian youngsters have way more tournaments near here to attend, while Michael would have to travel overseas for every tournament, which is most likely too expensive. This is probably the main reason his WR is not as good as it should be. You can't really compare that without taking those factors into account.
It is true that optimism can blur the vision on facts, but a focus on facts can blur the vision on reality, which is just as 'dangerous'.
 
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The young man is Michael Landers. He will represent something in the future, he will represent the United States. He won his first Men's Singles title at 15. His coach is from the Phillipines, living in NYC. He's very hard-working and extremely bright with a good attitude. He began attending tournaments I helped stage when he was 9.

If you were to be honest, our sport is a second tier sport world-wide. That makes it no less exciting to play or to follow. :) As to the young man's future results in International competition, we'll have to wait and see, won't we. But he has already reached the National team level, and even in a 'backward continent' like North America, that does represent something. You can only beat the players they send out against you, you know. :)

Alan

I agree also, why have such a negative attitude towards someone who is passionate about a future in the sport. If everyone thought they would never make it to the top all sport would be redundant and social only. I'm impressed with Michael Landers and it's clear to see that table tennis in the USA is taking off really nicely, it's becoming more popular everywhere as both a social and competitive sport. I hope it continues that way and I hope Landers will represent the US at the Olympic Games, he has worked hard for it :)
 
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So funny to follow this useless discussion so far :D

If you consider the number of only ~10000 players or even less as Alan stated (which is nearly nothing for such a big country..) i think its quite a good level! Of course you can't compare it to world class level but that's just normal if you have so few players.
And it's really funny that all the complains come from someone from Belgium, i could start going on about their playing level now but i wont ;)
 
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So funny to follow this useless discussion so far :D

If you consider the number of only ~10000 players or even less as Alan stated (which is nearly nothing for such a big country..) i think its quite a good level! Of course you can't compare it to world class level but that's just normal if you have so few players.
And it's really funny that all the complains come from someone from Belgium, i could start going on about their playing level now but i wont ;)

Yeah, that wouldn't be fair as a German. We can't talk negative about your country's level :p
 
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I have fun watching Michael Landers play. He is a fun kid. A few weeks ago I was watching him play with a friend, at Spin, Mark Croitoroo. He is much better than his friend, but Mark is pretty good as well (2255 USATT rating). It was fun to see them playing, enjoying playing, goofing around and still, playing at a decently high level.

Yes, Landers has a future. Yes, US Table Tennis has a future. Will the US be competitive on the world level? I doubt it. Does that matter? Not really. If there are people like Michael out there who make it so that more people in the US are interested in playing and getting better, the sport will continue to grow.

I started playing about 2.5 years ago after not having played for about 20 years and when I was younger I only played recreationally. In the last 2.5 years of playing, I have seen the interest in Table Tennis increase in NYC where I live, exponentially. Most of the people I know only play recreationally. I think, even if the numbers Mr RicharD stated were accurate, they are sad, and I am confident that Alan W is pointing out something that is true which makes the numbers, in a country this size even more gloomy. But the number of people getting involved in the sport and wanting to improve their skills is going up. People like Michael Landers have had some impact on that fact.

It is too bad that there isn't more competition at the higher levels in this country so people like Adam Hugh and Michael Landers would have more competition to enable them to become even better. And with how much Michael has improved in the last 3 years, if he did play internationally and got a chance to play with and train with higher level players from Europe and Asia, you never can tell what might happen. He might not ever be able to break top 50, but it might be possible to get close to the top 100.

And no matter what happens Michael Landers has helped inspire people in the US to try and improve their skills and he has helped make the sport fun and more popular for many in this area.
 
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I have fun watching Michael Landers play. He is a fun kid. A few weeks ago I was watching him play with a friend, at Spin, Mark Croitoroo. He is much better than his friend, but Mark is pretty good as well (2255 USATT rating). It was fun to see them playing, enjoying playing, goofing around and still, playing at a decently high level.

Yes, Landers has a future. Yes, US Table Tennis has a future. Will the US be competitive on the world level? I doubt it. Does that matter? Not really. If there are people like Michael out there who make it so that more people in the US are interested in playing and getting better, the sport will continue to grow.

I started playing about 2.5 years ago after not having played for about 20 years and when I was younger I only played recreationally. In the last 2.5 years of playing, I have seen the interest in Table Tennis increase in NYC where I live, exponentially. Most of the people I know only play recreationally. I think, even if the numbers Mr RicharD stated were accurate, they are sad, and I am confident that Alan W is pointing out something that is true which makes the numbers, in a country this size even more gloomy. But the number of people getting involved in the sport and wanting to improve their skills is going up. People like Michael Landers have had some impact on that fact.

It is too bad that there isn't more competition at the higher levels in this country so people like Adam Hugh and Michael Landers would have more competition to enable them to become even better. And with how much Michael has improved in the last 3 years, if he did play internationally and got a chance to play with and train with higher level players from Europe and Asia, you never can tell what might happen. He might not ever be able to break top 50, but it might be possible to get close to the top 100.

And no matter what happens Michael Landers has helped inspire people in the US to try and improve their skills and he has helped make the sport fun and more popular for many in this area.

Great perspective, Carl, and true. Our pipeline to World and Olympic greatness has historically had a kink in it. It is definitely at age 18 when a promising player must decide to either attend college (and pretty much forget about ping pong) or leave the country and try to improve in Sweden or Germany or China and Taiwan or somewhere closer to the better players and coaches. There's still not enough top flight competition here to pull that off while staying in the USA. Skipping college is a risky strategy, the potential payoff is pretty low (financially) so off to school they go! It's not uncommon for US Players to see their International rankings crest at Michael's age. They are still National Team contenders for 10 or 15 years, but don't have much shot at denting World Top 50 once they've entered college.
 
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Actually I only talked to those players who beat Michael. They all agree that he is a solid 2400 player who has a 2700 service. And to compare Ma Lin to Michael is not a good example. I mean Ma Lin's forehand is still one of the best in the world. His short game and return of service are the best at least on the CNT if not the world. Michael is still young and is definitely getting better, but to say that his skill sets are all equal with say Peter Li or even Han Xiao is pretty ignorant to say. They are both stronger in the forehand and backhand, but when Michael played Han, Han was injured. When Michael played Fan, he made a great come back, but Fan had Match point several times and couldn't get over an argument with the ref in which he gave up the 6th and still lost match point in the 7th. Michael had close games through out the 5 toughest matches. He has more endurance definitely and he's a risk taker. 5 of his 11 matches against players who were around his level were to the 6th and 7th games and all were close. His will to win is very high almost as high as Adam Hugh.

And I want to be clear that I'm not taking away from Michael in any way nor mean to, but the fact is that the tournament was his day. His stamina, service, and will to win were higher than the others. If you look at the first day's matches all the top players were 3-1, so the competition level was definitely even. Michael finished 9-2 by the end of it and there was actually a 4 way tie at 8-3 for second place, of which Peter didn't make the cut due to 1 less game won. So to say that Michael is at a higher level than these players is inaccurate. No doubt that he was the one who pulled through, but he didn't do it on skill alone the majority of his wins were endurance and will based.

Ernesto was also a huge factor in this tournament. There was no coach there that was more prepared than he was. Every other coach was there to encourage there players, while Ernesto was showing Michael where weak points were and which shots he needed to use more as sometimes his BH or FH would be on a streak. I'm sure that a lot of you have said that Ernesto isn't playing the game for Michael, but in a sense that's exactly what he's doing. Ernesto is 2400 and Michael is now over 2600, but Michael will never beat Ernesto because Ernesto knows Michael's game inside and out. Ernesto essentially created Michael's game, so there is no one more qualified in giving him advice during a match. If you had to choose between a coach who would say: "You're doing great, you just need to find your shot. Give him a harder push and then you'll get the shot you need to instigate the attack," or "Okay you're doing great buddy, now I want you to start using your backhand against his wide forehand on service. I want you to serve on his forehand and then counter to his elbow, if he gets that back shoot it down the line and then worry about smashing if he can get that. His backhand is weaker when you push to his middle so always look for the backhand after he loops from the middle. Alright now you got this Michael come on." Obviously you'd choose Ernesto's advice because frankly he's just easier to listen to and has the best of both worlds. He is encouraging and informative because he pulls out a clipboard with every not about the opponent and even more notes about the current match.

Wow this is a novel again, but this'll be my ending comment as I happen to know more about Michael's game than average spectators. I was directing the live feed in which I heard all of Sean O'neil's comments and also talked with several of the high level players who've beaten Michael in the past.
 
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World rankings are pretty useless here because many US juniors simply don't get to play a lot of ITTF events. But let's at least mention the rankings of those players who all finished behind Michael at the Trials:
Fan Yiyong 352, Han Xiao 439, Mark Hazinski 454, Adam Hugh 509, Timothy Wang 571
So we're looking at a level around 300-400 in the world.

Timothy Wang actually played a while in Belgium or Holland, his results might provide some objective comparison. But he's still improving too, although he's a little older than Michael.

Timothy Wang played in Holland (not in Belgium) in the year 2010 and guess what, he played in the second division (not the first one called "Eredivisie") and the team failed to make it to the first league in Holland that year !
Please be carefull when you try to refer to play level. The ittf ranking of a player is in the long run maybe the best possible reference. Michael Landers : ittf 739.
No complaints just facts.

The Fang Bo youtube was just to "illustrate" , i even mentioned it in my post. If you want to believe i saw this as "evidence" or benchmark, i can not do anything against this.
But please read my posts with more attention and dont read more than the posts say.

@TTTT : Wanting to prove a coach is a good coach based on one result against one French player is imho totally rubbish !! LOL.
 
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The video was just an illustration. In my previous posts i didn't compare Landers to the CNT but to some young players from Belgium, i wanted to show that even these much higher ranked players are nothing on the international scene (international means all players, not only China, like Korea, Japan, Sweden , France, Germany ...

For example Jean Lauric when he was 13 years old he looked promising. He went to China to train hard ... Some people saw a new Jean-Michel Saive (Saive was ranked world number 1 during 15 months in the nineties) in him. Today nobody even thinks about him in this perspective.

In the first post of this thread, the poster states "It's USA table tennis at its finest and I think it shows that we have a much stronger future than people may think."

I think the poster was just way too optimistic here, and it illustrates how patriotism can blur a clear vision on the facts, which can be dangerous as history has learned us all.

This has nothing to do with patriotism or being friends with the guy, you just simply misinterpreted my post. People always write of USA TT as garbage, all I was saying is that this video might show that it is more promising than people may think. Nowhere did I say that USA TT was very promising and ready to take on world class competition. Nowhere.
 
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Lol I agree that's a poor interpretation of the words. 'Shows that USA table tennis has a stronger future than people think' is a pretty one message comment that people underplay what the US could be capable of and Landers shows promise. This has very little to do with patriotism and I don't think too optimistic at all. I completely agree, the video goes to show that the US has some talented players who might just surprise a few people, nobody specified how high they were going to go. Lily Zhang and Ariel Hsing are already showing that the US has a stronger future in tt than people may have originally expected, they are still both juniors and nearly in the world's top 100 women.

GOOD ON THE US I say, it's pleasing to see growth! :)
 
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