Is Harimoto's screams disrespectful to the opponent?

SamTheMan · Nov 20, 2020

zyu81 said:
I suggest you start with some Lin Gaoyuan videos from earlier this decade. Factor in that this time period is around when Harimoto was a young boy and starting off his TT career and one could conclude that it is actually Lin Gaoyuan that influenced young and innocent Harimoto and created the monster we have today. Lin Gaoyuan hate threads, commence!

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ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> I’m actually watching the Lin Gaoyuan game right now. But I didn’t know he screamed that much already back then… Then maybe it’s Lin Gaoyuan and not Harimoto to blame…

NextLevel · Nov 20, 2020

zeio said:
That's how you define sexist? Weak, that is.

With all due respect, you're not just disconnected, but also disillusioned. I've provided ample information on why I think Ishikawa should retire from the technical perspective. I've done the same thing for Hirano1, 2. Need I mention Hayata?

Yet, you, among others, are simply against Harimoto's behavior in the arena that should be considered part of the game. That's weak per LGL.

Have you done anything worth mentioning to be a moderator on Mytt?

I have.

Okay? So you mean that other players don't have bad technique too?

In any case, my point is not that you can't criticize Ishikawa. My point is that acting as if someone criticizing a celebrity needs a special permission is just weird. And that if you can't see the double standard, it is your prerogative. I mean, no one ever asked what you had done that makes you qualified to criticize Ishikawa etc.

I would have thought that without knowing what people actually do in everyday life, or not even having posted or met half the mytt members I have, or maybe even encouraged a top coach to post on various forums, some modesty about what people do or don't do should be in order. But if you ever wanted to be a moderator at mytt, just speak to Alex Li. I was asked to volunteer and agreed to do so. I felt it was worth giving a bit back in service time despite being too busy to do so realistically.

In any case, carry on...

zyu81 · Nov 20, 2020

SamTheMan said:
 I’m actually watching the Lin Gaoyuan game right now. But I didn’t know he screamed that much already back then… Then maybe it’s Lin Gaoyuan and not Harimoto to blame…

He has calmed down now as I expect that Harimoto will eventually. The pressure that Lin faced as a junior was something not a lot of people here can understand. Prove yourself deserving of the NT or you are done, and your life's work through your teenage years has gone to waste. Harimoto faces probably even more pressure.

quanghuysk · Nov 20, 2020

argh, there should have a "King Of Cho" tournament. My bet is still on Hari

SamTheMan · Nov 20, 2020

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ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/> <w

ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Lol. By screaming back, Jang Woojin defeats both Harimoto and Lin Gaoyuan. Then when he scores 10-6 in 7[SUP]th[/SUP] set he silently celebrates with his fist in the air. Even after 11-6 and game won, he celebrates silently.

zyu81 · Nov 20, 2020

SamTheMan said:
 Lol. By screaming back, Jang Woojin defeats both Harimoto and Lin Gaoyuan. Then when he scores 10-6 in 7[SUP]th[/SUP] set he silently celebrates with his fist in the air. Even after 11-6 and game won, he celebrates silently.

It is actually more rare to see people celebrate on the final point, unless it were the championship point or something of the likes.

passifid · Nov 20, 2020

So upsidedown:
Proposes rules:
Cho is fine. Limit point celebration to two words.
Limit number of Cho to 4 per set ideally. 3 allowable plus when you win a set of course.
Limit volume to a defined level, make a reasonable level for middle of game and allow loudee at the end of a set or game. I don't know decibel well enough to give my opinion.
Allow end of set celebration to be basically a self congratulations but louder and more than two words but unsure of how many to allow as different languages may need flexibility. But not allowed to involve other people.
End of game celebrate away withing reason bearing in mind other games bieng played (allowing a natural progression with loudest at finals!) Involve your team etc.
Celebrations should not be derogatory or profane in nature or be directed at the opponant or referee

Punishment:
Each set can incurr an infraction. But only one. Infractions last TWO tours
First infraction: warning.
Second: fine (unsure of amount)
Third: withhold of prize moneies (maybe half or all unsure feel all is harsh)
Fourth: inability to participate in next tour of the same grade (platinum etc)

If in next tour after a five infraction tour you gain three infractions then banned from next tour without fourth.

The key idea is that 90+% of people shouldn't need to think about the rules but instead it should only capture those who overuse them. I think using these rules everyone other than maybe 5 regular players would find this difficult. Gaoyuan harimoto and szocz come to mind.

Also that they should run a silent mock 8-10 tours to see how many cards would be issued and adjust everything from amount of chos to volume as needed to avoid overzealous issueing as I dont know what the limits really should be.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 20, 2020

passifid said:
So upsidedown:
Proposes rules:
Cho is fine. Limit point celebration to two words.
Limit number of Cho to 4 per set ideally. 3 allowable plus when you win a set of course.
Limit volume to a defined level, make a reasonable level for middle of game and allow loudee at the end of a set or game. I don't know decibel well enough to give my opinion.
Allow end of set celebration to be basically a self congratulations but louder and more than two words but unsure of how many to allow as different languages may need flexibility. But not allowed to involve other people.
End of game celebrate away withing reason bearing in mind other games bieng played (allowing a natural progression with loudest at finals!) Involve your team etc.
Celebrations should not be derogatory or profane in nature or be directed at the opponant or referee

Punishment:
Each set can incurr an infraction. But only one. Infractions last TWO tours
First infraction: warning.
Second: fine (unsure of amount)
Third: withhold of prize moneies (maybe half or all unsure feel all is harsh)
Fourth: inability to participate in next tour of the same grade (platinum etc)

If in next tour after a five infraction tour you gain three infractions then banned from next tour without fourth.

The key idea is that 90+% of people shouldn't need to think about the rules but instead it should only capture those who overuse them. I think using these rules everyone other than maybe 5 regular players would find this difficult. Gaoyuan harimoto and szocz come to mind.

Also that they should run a silent mock 8-10 tours to see how many cards would be issued and adjust everything from amount of chos to volume as needed to avoid overzealous issueing as I dont know what the limits really should be.

Thanks for the detailed answer.

I guess, one more question:

Doesn't an umpire have a discretionary right to call a player if he is making noise or doing something unsportsmanlike to impede or distract an opponent?

I have seen a player called for stomping feet in the middle of a point while on defense and while the opponent was about to strike the ball. So, would an umpire's discretionary right to warn and call a player for the kind of stuff Harimoto does, already be present?

passifid · Nov 20, 2020

Yes they definitely do.
I also think we should separate the issues as the foot stamping is worse imo. It's Interrupting and disrupting play and should be treated with contempt. Celebrations are not as mad as mid point distraction and for me should be curbed without changing the results of the match as for me it's sportsmanship and not outright cheating like the stamping. As such leniency should be allowed in regards to not making a player loose a final because they were too excited.

unfortunately TT umpires rarely call anything even obviously against the rules without interpretation for example serves. So I don't trust them to bother interpreting anything other than mid point outright cheating most of the time

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 20, 2020

passifid said:
Yes they definitely do.
I also think we should separate the issues as the foot stamping is worse imo. It's Interrupting and disrupting play and should be treated with contempt. Celebrations are not as mad as mid point distraction and for me should be curbed without changing the results of the match as for me it's sportsmanship and not outright cheating like the stamping. As such leniency should be allowed in regards to not making a player loose a final because they were too excited.

unfortunately TT umpires rarely call anything even obviously against the rules without interpretation for example serves. So I don't trust them to bother interpreting anything other than mid point outright cheating most of the time

Is it possible that, the umpires, having the discretionary right to caution, warn or card a player for celebrations don't because they don't see it as a problem?

zyu81 · Nov 20, 2020

passifid said:
So upsidedown:
Proposes rules:
Cho is fine. Limit point celebration to two words.
Limit number of Cho to 4 per set ideally. 3 allowable plus when you win a set of course.
Limit volume to a defined level, make a reasonable level for middle of game and allow loudee at the end of a set or game. I don't know decibel well enough to give my opinion.
Allow end of set celebration to be basically a self congratulations but louder and more than two words but unsure of how many to allow as different languages may need flexibility. But not allowed to involve other people.
End of game celebrate away withing reason bearing in mind other games bieng played (allowing a natural progression with loudest at finals!) Involve your team etc.
Celebrations should not be derogatory or profane in nature or be directed at the opponant or referee

Punishment:
Each set can incurr an infraction. But only one. Infractions last TWO tours
First infraction: warning.
Second: fine (unsure of amount)
Third: withhold of prize moneies (maybe half or all unsure feel all is harsh)
Fourth: inability to participate in next tour of the same grade (platinum etc)

If in next tour after a five infraction tour you gain three infractions then banned from next tour without fourth.

The key idea is that 90+% of people shouldn't need to think about the rules but instead it should only capture those who overuse them. I think using these rules everyone other than maybe 5 regular players would find this difficult. Gaoyuan harimoto and szocz come to mind.

Also that they should run a silent mock 8-10 tours to see how many cards would be issued and adjust everything from amount of chos to volume as needed to avoid overzealous issueing as I dont know what the limits really should be.

4 per set, what happens if you have more than 4 truly excellent points, or the set goes deep into deuce? Out of luck, better shut up?

Two words, and the enforcing umpire is expected to be familiar with celebratory words in any language so that he can keep an accurate count?

Self congratulations? Within reason? Who is judging that and how? How will any of this be seriously enforced if we can't even get consistent enforcement on clear cut rules such as service toss?

SamTheMan · Nov 20, 2020

zyu81 said:
I suggest you start with some Lin Gaoyuan videos from earlier this decade. Factor in that this time period is around when Harimoto was a young boy and starting off his TT career and one could conclude that it is actually Lin Gaoyuan that influenced young and innocent Harimoto and created the monster we have today. Lin Gaoyuan hate threads, commence!

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ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> I just watched the most of the 2011 finals between Lin Gaoyuan and Koki Niwa. Yes, Lin Gaoyuan was a shouter already back then. But Harimoto screams louder, longer and more often compared to that. But I agree that Harimoto is not the only player to blame and that it might be that Lin Gaoyuan influenced Harimoto.

zeio · Nov 20, 2020

NextLevel said:
Okay? So you mean that other players don't have bad technique too?

In any case, my point is not that you can't criticize Ishikawa. My point is that acting as if someone criticizing a celebrity needs a special permission is just weird. And that if you can't see the double standard, it is your prerogative. I mean, no one ever asked what you had done that makes you qualified to criticize Ishikawa etc.

I would have thought that without knowing what people actually do in everyday life, or not even having posted or met half the mytt members I have, or maybe even encouraged a top coach to post on various forums, some modesty about what people do or don't do should be in order. But if you ever wanted to be a moderator at mytt, just speak to Alex Li. I was asked to volunteer and agreed to do so. I felt it was worth giving a bit back in service time despite being too busy to do so realistically.

In any case, carry on...

Have I ruled myself out when I wrote the following?

zeio said:
Yet here we are judging him with our paltry life experience? What have we done for table tennis, other than the constant nagging? Hidden serves, service toss, foot stomping, DHS for playing dealer, Butterfly for playing organ broker, ESN for playing Illuminati, and last but not least, shitty streaming/edits that you're watching for free?

Have you competed in your junior years? Not in some leagues, but real competitions where you meet people you've never met. I have. Do you know what it feels to be a junior player, the pressure to go up against a senior player like a head taller than you? I was scared like shit when I first competed. Put yourself in Harimoto's shoes. Try to be strong.

Look, I don't want to do this here. yogi and Alex have approached me. I had to turn it down for personal reasons. But more importantly, I saw mickd and you were already on board there. From what little I've observed, I see you've taken a more balanced approach in discussion now over there. mickd has done a decent job as well. That's good enough. Having me won't add much to the forum. Even more, I'll have to cut down my idol bashing if I join. Gotta move on to those Tieba posts.

NextLevel · Nov 20, 2020

SamTheMan said:
 I just watched the most of the 2011 finals between Lin Gaoyuan and Koki Niwa. Yes, Lin Gaoyuan was a shouter already back then. But Harimoto screams louder, longer and more often compared to that. But I agree that Harimoto is not the only player to blame and that it might be that Lin Gaoyuan influenced Harimoto.

Nah, this isn't about lineage.

This was Harimoto at one time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqLrdv67sdE

Many of the supporters of Harimoto don't want to look at how his behavior evolved and how it has changed.

passifid · Nov 20, 2020

Believe it or not Rome wasn't built in a day. Proposal is okay for amendment.

Carl
Hidden serves were not a problem until suddenly they were. Spinning the ball with your fingers to serve wasn't an issue until it was.

And actually yes if there are more than 4 points (per player) that are fantastic maybe they have a very exciting style. Or maybe we should ban it to 4 where we try to outline over the top and unlimited minor celebration. Just add it to the proposal.

Also for languages I never hear more than just three that are used loudly. Usually it's just Chinese though. You'd only really need to be familiar with one or two. Or maybe your prefer a time limit?

My other proposals would be ball boys and multiple balls like t2 that was so watchable even in long form because of that and would mitigate some Cho frustration because of it not just cutting to Cho again and again.

zyu81 · Nov 20, 2020

NextLevel said:
Nah, this isn't about lineage.

This was Harimoto at one time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqLrdv67sdE

Many of the supporters of Harimoto don't want to look at how his behavior evolved and how it has changed.

My reference to lineage wasn't meant to be taken seriously but is more of a reference to the people on this thread acting like Harimoto is going to inspire a future generation to act this way. If that is safe to assume, then why isn't it safe to assume that Lin may have influenced Harimoto? Either both are possible or neither are.

That match you linked was also Harimoto when he was 11 years old and probably one of his first international tournaments. And he isn't exactly quiet in that video either though certainly not doing what he does today. If the changes in his behavior were not brought on by the expected behavioral changes in a young adolescent, then what? Based on his behavior in that video I don't really see anything that makes me think his behavior today wasn't a natural progression from what we see in 11-year-old him.

zyu81 · Nov 20, 2020

passifid said:
Believe it or not Rome wasn't built in a day. Proposal is okay for amendment.

Carl
Hidden serves were not a problem until suddenly they were. Spinning the ball with your fingers to serve wasn't an issue until it was.

And actually yes if there are more than 4 points (per player) that are fantastic maybe they have a very exciting style. Or maybe we should ban it to 4 where we try to outline over the top and unlimited minor celebration. Just add it to the proposal.

Also for languages I never hear more than just three that are used loudly. Usually it's just Chinese though. You'd only really need to be familiar with one or two. Or maybe your prefer a time limit?

My other proposals would be ball boys and multiple balls like t2 that was so watchable even in long form because of that and would mitigate some Cho frustration because of it not just cutting to Cho again and again.

I can say with 100% confidence that any proposed rules to levy financial and participation restrictions on players for celebrating, would be immediately struck down by both the players and any parties who have a say in the matter. I will bet my life on that.

We're looking at a yellow card and point deductions for repeated infractions, at the most. Even that is unlikely. And a hard cap on celebrations per game? No way. At most, there would be a directive for umpires to start enforcing things more, at which point you get into an extreme grey area which will lead to even more controversy.

NextLevel · Nov 20, 2020

zeio said:
Have I ruled myself out when I wrote the following?

Ah okay. So you consider

our paltry life experience short for discussing Harimoto. I guess I missed that when you stated that

our paltry life experience applies when you criticize Harimoto, but doesn't apply when you criticize other players. Thanks for making it clear.

Have you competed in your junior years? Not in some leagues, but real competitions where you meet people you've never met. I have. Do you know what it feels to be a junior player, the pressure to go up against a senior player like a head taller than you? I was scared like shit when I first competed. Put yourself in Harimoto's shoes. Try to be strong.

Look, I don't want to do this here. yogi and Alex have approached me. I had to turn it down for personal reasons. But more importantly, I saw mickd and you were already on board there. From what little I've observed, I see you've taken a more balanced approach in discussion now over there. mickd has done a decent job as well. That's good enough. Having me won't add much to the forum. Even more, I'll have to cut down my idol bashing if I join. Gotta move on to those Tieba posts.

One of the rules of leadership/celebrity is that is it is exceptional and there is a very thin line between humanizing and excusing its limitations. Like I have said before, what Harimoto does is not just celebration. You can look at how it evolved over time. And there is a difference between saying that pros are able to handle it and that pros are not affected by it.

I will leave the moderator stuff alone because it is pointless. Anyone can serve if they want to serve and are deemed able and I am still confused by how it came into this discussion.

Hysteresis · Nov 20, 2020

NextLevel said:
Nah, this isn't about lineage.

This was Harimoto at one time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqLrdv67sdE

Many of the supporters of Harimoto don't want to look at how his behavior evolved and how it has changed.

Holy crap, he used to be so much less obnoxious, this is downright watchable, even if he were to turn up the volume several notches.

Now i'm wondering what the hell happened to his chos.

NextLevel · Nov 20, 2020

zyu81 said:
My reference to lineage wasn't meant to be taken seriously but is more of a reference to the people on this thread acting like Harimoto is going to inspire a future generation to act this way. If that is safe to assume, then why isn't it safe to assume that Lin may have influenced Harimoto? Either both are possible or neither are.

That match you linked was also Harimoto when he was 11 years old and probably one of his first international tournaments. And he isn't exactly quiet in that video either though certainly not doing what he does today. If the changes in his behavior were not brought on by the expected behavioral changes in a young adolescent, then what? Based on his behavior in that video I don't really see anything that makes me think his behavior today wasn't a natural progression from what we see in 11-year-old him.

Do you remember when Harimoto used to grunt during his opponent's serve preparation? Was that a natural progression as well?

Is Harimoto's screams disrespectful to the opponent?

Is Harimoto's screaming disrespectful to the sport and to his opponents?

Yes

No

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