Is Harimoto's screams disrespectful to the opponent?

[bzing]

One of the only roaring that players do in table tennis that I actually enjoy is Ma Long. If any rules were actually imposed on the players to curb on them being vocal after winning the point, that would be ridiculous.

Imagine how much of an exhilaration and excitement would disappear from this match of Chinese National Championships 2017 Final between FZD & ML.

Particularly at the point when ML is up 5-3 in the 6th last game, when he scores another point he just roars like a dragon and it's what makes for so many people exciting to watch these matches.



Not only this would be not as exhilarating to watch if they ever imposed any rules, but imagine how much it would actually affect any of these top players game if they had to somehow restrain themselves from releasing that adrenaline which hugely impacts on the quality of their shots. And it's not possible to release the full adrenaline without being vocal.

The thing with Harimoto or Masataka in fact is that they just sound annoying when they do that, whereas Ma Long at least for me is quite enjoyable when he does his dragon roaring.

[zeio]

Let's take a look at another sport - springboard diving, where deliberate interference is part of the game.

In a recent episode of the web series "Golden Era" by Tencent, Gao Min went over her road to the gold medal in the final of 3m springboard diving at Seoul 1988.

According to Gao, on the 7th jump, an athlete from Soviet Union in the stand screamed right after she started her jump. Her coach made an objection right after that, but she remained 100% unaffected.

@14:46

---

Back to table tennis. An excerpt from a study describes the training for WTTC 2000 and Sydney 2000.
http://web.nanya.edu.tw/acof/acen/Wo...2%E8%A8%8E.pdf

2、訓練要有難度—“為人所不能”
　　平時訓練的“難度”應該相當於比賽的“難度”，所以訓練時的強度、對抗程度甚至訓練環境都要盡可能接近比賽。例如中國大陸為了備戰世界盃桌球團體賽及雪梨奧運會，選手王楠等人捨棄春節與家人團聚的機會，於「正定基地」進行封閉訓練；而賽前的模擬訓練，則列出各國對手的技術、戰術進行研究、加強運動員抗干擾能力（包括場地、噪音、兩天的晚間適應性比賽包含在場地吃飯、中間不休息）；而中國大陸男子排隊為準備卡達亞洲排球錦標賽，球員冒著攝氏近40度的氣溫苦練，在一天兩次的訓練下不准脫衣服練習（卜美彰，1997），以適應比賽的需要。
　　訓練環境與條件要有難度，室外項目有時應安排在刮風、下雨等惡劣環境下進行訓練，有時還刻意製造困難，在體力較差或是噪音干擾中進行訓練，如中國大陸國家桌球隊為增加難度的訓練環境，在爬山後進行比賽的訓練，長跑後進行比賽的訓練，有時在午睡時間打比賽，桌球在多球訓練到最後20分鐘中進行極限訓練等。“難”，要有個限度，這是比賽的需要，難的合理、難的可行，平時訓練難受，比賽才會成功。

2. Training must be difficult - "make possible the impossible for someone else"

The "difficulty" of usual training should be equivalent to the "difficulty" of the competition, so the intensity, the degree of confrontation and even the training environment should be as close to the competition as possible. For example, in order to prepare for the WTTC team competition and the Sydney Olympics, Chinese players such as Wang Nan gave up the opportunity to reunite with their families during the Spring Festival and conducted closed-door training at the "Zhengding Base". The simulation training before the competition listed the research on the skills and tactics of the opponents from various countries, and strengthened the player's anti-interference capabilities (including venues, noise, 2-day evening adaptation competition which includes eating in the venue, no rest in between)...

The training environment and conditions must be difficult. Outdoor events should sometimes be arranged in harsh environments such as windy and rain, and sometimes with deliberately-created difficulties, training when relatively fatigued or under noise interference. For example, in order to increase the difficulty of the training environment, the the Chinese table tennis team conducts competition training after mountain climbing, competition training after long-distance running, competition during the nap time sometimes, and extreme training during the last 20 minutes of multi-ball training. "Difficulty" must have a limit. This is the requirement of competition. Difficult yet reasonable, and difficult yet feasible. Only when the usual training is uncomfortable, will you be successful in competitions.

[bzing]

The question of the poll can be misconstrued and can bring two different outcomes.

It's like I have explained in the previous post about why it would be so bad for table tennis if some rules were actually imposed on curbing player's chooing and being vocal during the game.

If you titled the poll something along the lines: Do you find Harimoto's screaming annoying?

The majority of people would probably vote yes, probably including me. Even though I do enjoy watching Ma Long play and when he does his roaring, I don't think anyone enjoys Harimoto screams.

But if the poll was titled on the other hand: Do you think chooing should be impeded by imposing new rules?

I think anyone that realizes the consqequence of this would definitely vote no, because again watch the match between FZD vs ML and I think you'd understand how lacklustre it would become and the players not even able to exercise the adrenaline would completely fade away the whole game.

[zyu81]

The question of the poll can be misconstrued and can bring two different outcomes.

It's like I have explained in the previous post about why it would be so bad for table tennis if some rules were actually imposed on curbing player's chooing and being vocal during the game.

If you titled the poll something along the lines: Do you find Harimoto's screaming annoying?

The majority of people would probably vote yes, probably including me. Even though I do enjoy watching Ma Long play and when he does his roaring, I don't think anyone enjoys Harimoto screams.

But if the poll was titled on the other hand: Do you think chooing should be impeded by imposing new rules?

I think anyone that realizes the consqequence of this would definitely vote no, because again watch the match between FZD vs ML and I think you'd understand how lacklustre it would become and the players not even able to exercise the adrenaline would completely fade away the whole game.

This. I also have a feeling that we would get very different poll results if the question was whether people found Jang Woojin or Chen Meng's choing at the recent tournaments to be annoying.

[UpSideDownCarl]

One thing I find of interest in the poll is: if you look at the number of members listed as having voted and compare it to the total number of votes cast, the total number of votes cast is far more than double the number of members listed.

Could someone who is not a member cast a vote? Could someone who is not logged in cast a vote? I have no interest anything other than the fact that: there are a total of 83 members listed, yet 221 votes have been cast. Therefore, 138 of the votes cast are not appearing as TTDaily members! Where did those 138 votes come from? Is it possible for someone not logged in to vote more than once.....like by switching browsers or deleting history/cookies?

Yet another way in which the poll is simply invalid.

[SamTheMan]

I think anyone that realizes the consqequence of this would definitely vote no, because again watch the match between FZD vs ML and I think you'd understand how lacklustre it would become and the players not even able to exercise the adrenaline would completely fade away the whole game.

I don’t think anyone wants to ban all cho’ing or wishes for complete silence. I think that everybody is OK with a roar or two during key points in a final. What was discussed was about screaming loud at every point in every game (even thou it’s excepted nets and edges). Let´s assume more players started to scream even louder and longer and even on nets, edges and service mistakes. Perhaps some kind of rule would be needed then. Someone wrote earlier that around 80% of Harimotos screaming would be OK. I can agree with that. If the rule was OK with some shouting at some points “normal” players wouldn’t be affected and be able to exercise the adrenaline.

[bzing]

I don’t think anyone wants to ban all cho’ing or wishes for complete silence. I think that everybody is OK with a roar or two during key points in a final. What was discussed was about screaming loud at every point in every game (even thou it’s excepted nets and edges). Let´s assume more players started to scream even louder and longer and even on nets, edges and service mistakes. Perhaps some kind of rule would be needed then. Someone wrote earlier that around 80% of Harimotos screaming would be OK. I can agree with that. If the rule was OK with some shouting at some points “normal” players wouldn’t be affected and be able to exercise the adrenaline.

It's so ridiculous that you think you could draw a line between some players and other players that you think their screaming is annoying. Because Ma Long in that match against FZD in 2017 is also screaming his lungs out. So it's not the loudness that is any different between Ma Long and Harimoto, it's just that Harimoto has particularly different voice that makes his scream sound a lot more annoying.

And once you imposed any rules whatsoever, you could not tell that this player's celebration is ok and other is not. There is no way to distinguish that. You would effectively either exclude it completely from the game or not.

[zeio]

An article in 2019 on Harimoto's academic performance from primary school to high school and some more. He ranked 1st in Japanese language and math of a cram school aptitude test in Japan. Consistently ranked top 3 in primary school. Top 30 in a cram school mock exam of the Miyagi prefecture.

In this TV program from 2018, Harimoto's mom Zhang Ling said she encouraged Harimoto to holler in order to eliminate/overcome the weakness within. Miyazaki pointed out Harimoto was very shy, even a bit of a scaredy-cat. He added that Harimoto's hollering was merely to encourage himself and not to intimidate.



How the AI thought Harimoto(14) would look at 17
https://i.imgur.com/b1TWN90.jpg

How he actually looks at 17
https://i.imgur.com/JcvNpaD.jpg

---

Whether or not you like/accept/believe the above explanation, here is an example of what could happen if you proposed to regulate and to classify/define/label it as misbehavior. The following was voted on and defeated at the AGM 2006. If what igorponger wrote was true, he should be at it still. Notable members found it disrespectful.

16 Proposed by the USA Table Tennis Association

3.5.2 MISBEHAVIOUR
3.5.2.1 Players and coaches shall refrain from behaviour that may unfairly affect an opponent, offend spectators or bring the sport into disrepute, such as abusive language, deliberately breaking the ball or hitting it out of the playing area, kicking the table or surrounds, wiping the hands on the surface of the table and disrespect of match officials.

While one player is wiping his hand in his towel every 6 points, the other is wiping his hand on the surface of the table, some times at every point and some times more than one time between the two points.
* It looks rather offensive on the TV.
* It disruptive to the continuous play.
* It delays the game and that in it is against the rules.
* It creates arguments between the player and the umpire, as there is no specific mention to it in the rules.

---

Notable members found an American kid's vocal celebration "obnoxious" in a thread from 2011, with video.

[Mytoman]

I believe it is important to remember "The Avery rule" when discussing these items.
Avery was screening the goalkeeper in NHL, standing face to face with him, blocking his view to the play and the puck. There were no spesific rules against this, and the referee did not sanction it during the match. "The next day" the association came up with a new rule, making this situation illegal.

Bad call!

When you go into spesific situations and create a new rule, you take away the discretion/judgement from the referee/umpire. Of course the referee in the spesific situation should have given Avery two minutes off the ice, as this was not fair play. With the new rule, however, you suddenly got 100000000 new situations that was suddenly "allowed". What if I screen the goalkeeper with my shoulders etc etc... "If it is not in the rules, it is allowed".


Spesific rules take away the judgement/discretion of the referee/umpire, and makes everything that is not probithed legal!

Screaming MIGHT be under the penalty point system if it unfairly affects the opponent (or any of the other criterias). Or it might be a let for disturbance in some cases. Normally this is not a problem in professional table tennis.

[IB66]

One thing I find of interest in the poll is: if you look at the number of members listed as having voted and compare it to the total number of votes cast, the total number of votes cast is far more than double the number of members listed.

Could someone who is not a member cast a vote? Could someone who is not logged in cast a vote? I have no interest anything other than the fact that: there are a total of 83 members listed, yet 221 votes have been cast. Therefore, 138 of the votes cast are not appearing as TTDaily members! Where did those 138 votes come from? Is it possible for someone not logged in to vote more than once.....like by switching browsers or deleting history/cookies?

Yet another way in which the poll is simply invalid.

This was something that I had noticed as well, so a few minutes ago I logged out, reopened TTD and opened this thread. The option to vote was there, so I voted No. I had to leave the thread and reopen it to see that the counter had clicked up one vote for the No’s.

Then I used my partners tablet, opened TTD, etc opened the thread the option to vote was there. I voted NO and the counter moved up one.
Then i tried the same procedure on her tablet but this time I logged in, the option to vote was not there.

Therefore it appears that you can vote once when you are logged in. And once per device as a ‘visitor’

Of course this makes the poll a complete farce, and would do if the question asked had been ‘a valid’ question.

[UpSideDownCarl]

This was something that I had noticed as well, so a few minutes ago I logged out, reopened TTD and opened this thread. The option to vote was there, so I voted No. I had to leave the thread and reopen it to see that the counter had clicked up one vote for the No’s.

Then I used my partners tablet, opened TTD, etc opened the thread the option to vote was there. I voted NO and the counter moved up one.
Then i tried the same procedure on her tablet but this time I logged in, the option to vote was not there.

Therefore it appears that you can vote once when you are logged in. And once per device as a ‘visitor’

Of course this makes the poll a complete farce, and would do if the question asked had been ‘a valid’ question.

I did not try but when I looked while not logged on, it seemed to be the case. I bet, if you opened TTDaily in a different browser, you could vote again. I also bet that if you clear browsing history (cookies) you would be able to vote again in a browser you had just voted in; and you would be able to vote as many times as you want provided that, each time you vote, you clear history for the browser after. So, if you clear history after each vote, you could vote an unlimited number of times using the same browser.

And that is why, the total number of votes is so much higher than the number of members listed as having voted. Feel free to count the total number of members listed in each category and tell us what those totals are.

[SamTheMan]

It's so ridiculous that you think you could draw a line between some players and other players that you think their screaming is annoying. Because Ma Long in that match against FZD in 2017 is also screaming his lungs out. So it's not the loudness that is any different between Ma Long and Harimoto, it's just that Harimoto has particularly different voice that makes his scream sound a lot more annoying.

And once you imposed any rules whatsoever, you could not tell that this player's celebration is ok and other is not. There is no way to distinguish that. You would effectively either exclude it completely from the game or not.

So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that it is impossible to distinguish or draw a line between frequent extreme screaming and some screaming. And since that is impossible, you either must ban all kinds of oral sounds or accept unlimited screaming, no matter how loud or how long it is?

I’m not sure if I want any rule changes or add any new rule about screaming. But I think that IF the TT community would like to implement it, it would be possible. If an umpire experiences the screaming to be too much and well crossed the line, he hands out a yellow card. It doesn’t have to be more difficult than that.


Yes, there will be some variation and different umpires will have small variations in their decisions. Just like the rules about serve toss or hidden serves. Some umpires are more strictly than others and the decisions aren’t always the same. But it works. Hidden serves don’t exist in the same way it used to, and players try to toss the ball strait.

[Der_Echte]

I did not try but when I looked while not logged on, it seemed to be the case. I bet, if you opened TTDaily in a different browser, you could vote again. I also bet that if you clear browsing history (cookies) you would be able to vote again in a browser you had just voted in; and you would be able to vote as many times as you want provided that, each time you vote, you clear history for the browser after. So, if you clear history after each vote, you could vote an unlimited number of times using the same browser.

And that is why, the total number of votes is so much higher than the number of members listed as having voted. Feel free to count the total number of members listed in each category and tell us what those totals are.

Carl explains the Kraker-Jack Hack in 67 seconds.

[Baal]

One of the only roaring that players do in table tennis that I actually enjoy is Ma Long. If any rules were actually imposed on the players to curb on them being vocal after winning the point, that would be ridiculous.

Imagine how much of an exhilaration and excitement would disappear from this match of Chinese National Championships 2017 Final between FZD & ML.

Particularly at the point when ML is up 5-3 in the 6th last game, when he scores another point he just roars like a dragon and it's what makes for so many people exciting to watch these matches.



Not only this would be not as exhilarating to watch if they ever imposed any rules, but imagine how much it would actually affect any of these top players game if they had to somehow restrain themselves from releasing that adrenaline which hugely impacts on the quality of their shots. And it's not possible to release the full adrenaline without being vocal.

The thing with Harimoto or Masataka in fact is that they just sound annoying when they do that, whereas Ma Long at least for me is quite enjoyable when he does his dragon roaring.

And he doesn't do it on every point!

[bzing]

So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that it is impossible to distinguish or draw a line between frequent extreme screaming and some screaming. And since that is impossible, you either must ban all kinds of oral sounds or accept unlimited screaming, no matter how loud or how long it is?

I’m not sure if I want any rule changes or add any new rule about screaming. But I think that IF the TT community would like to implement it, it would be possible. If an umpire experiences the screaming to be too much and well crossed the line, he hands out a yellow card. It doesn’t have to be more difficult than that.

Yes, there will be some variation and different umpires will have small variations in their decisions. Just like the rules about serve toss or hidden serves. Some umpires are more strictly than others and the decisions aren’t always the same. But it works. Hidden serves don’t exist in the same way it used to, and players try to toss the ball strait.

Very quickly you'd have biased umpire judgements of who is screaming too much and who isn't. It would be so contradictory because Ma Long also often in some matches screamed every point, but his voice doesn't sound annoying and generally many people are a big fan of him and enjoy watching him, including his roaring.

But it's such a double standards to say that this player and his screaming is "normal" but this other player isn't "normal" and therefore he needs to be curbed for his screaming but not the other player.

Imagine if this rule was in and Harimoto played against Ma Long. And you really think Ma Long wouldn't have to always then shut down? This would affect him also, sooner or later with such a ridiculous rule they'd realize that it would be a complete double standards to shut Harimoto down but not Ma Long.

It's a similar set of double standards when a while ago somebody on twitter had made like an experiment/example where he took a statement off of somebody else who was advocating for a particular group of people. And because that group of people is particularly privileged and they are so powerful they think they are basically completely innocent and saint and have made everyone else lead to believe in that too. But then what he did he took the exact same statement but only replaced one word in it which is the group of people and replaced it with other group of people. Now that statement was all of sudden completely unacceptable for some reason and politically incorrect. Typical double standards.

[SamTheMan]

Very quickly you'd have biased umpire judgements of who is screaming too much and who isn't. It would be so contradictory because Ma Long also often in some matches screamed every point, but his voice doesn't sound annoying and generally many people are a big fan of him and enjoy watching him, including his roaring.

But it's such a double standards to say that this player and his screaming is "normal" but this other player isn't "normal" and therefore he needs to be curbed for his screaming but not the other player.

Imagine if this rule was in and Harimoto played against Ma Long. And you really think Ma Long wouldn't have to always then shut down? This would affect him also, sooner or later with such a ridiculous rule they'd realize that it would be a complete double standards to shut Harimoto down but not Ma Long.

It's a similar set of double standards when a while ago somebody on twitter had made like an experiment/example where he took a statement off of somebody else who was advocating for a particular group of people. And because that group of people is particularly privileged and they are so powerful they think they are basically completely innocent and saint and have made everyone else lead to believe in that too. But then what he did he took the exact same statement but only replaced one word in it which is the group of people and replaced it with other group of people. Now that statement was all of sudden completely unacceptable for some reason and politically incorrect. Typical double standards.

This has nothing to do with double standards or applying the rule differently to different people. The players name does not affect the rule. It is the actions, if any player would scream way too much, he would get a yellow card. You are the one who writes about that you are OK with one player’s screaming but not with another one’s. But I am talking about the actions, I am OK with some screaming but not exaggerated screaming. If Ma Long started to scream extremely loud on most points, he would get a yellow card, just like he would be called if he tossed the ball too much towards him.
Do you also believe that the serve toss rule has so biased umpire judgements of who tosses straight and who isn’t? That it’s not about the actions/toss from the players, but rather their names?

[zeio]

No kidding. DN's tomahawk serve was called multiple times at WTTC 2012 and then London 2012. Others got called as well at WTTC 2012 when the referee or whoever suddenly decided to "enforce the rules" for some reasons. Before Rio 2016, the CNT decided to send tapes of DN's tomahawk serve in various real matches with their interpretations of the rules to the ITTF Umpires and Referees Committee asking for clarifications, elaborations.

I remember watching a video following a Chinese blue-badge umpire in international competitions and he said one thing they do after assembly is discuss how "tight" calls are to be made.

[bzing]

This has nothing to do with double standards or applying the rule differently to different people. The players name does not affect the rule. It is the actions, if any player would scream way too much, he would get a yellow card. You are the one who writes about that you are OK with one player’s screaming but not with another one’s. But I am talking about the actions, I am OK with some screaming but not exaggerated screaming. If Ma Long started to scream extremely loud on most points, he would get a yellow card, just like he would be called if he tossed the ball too much towards him.
Do you also believe that the serve toss rule has so biased umpire judgements of who tosses straight and who isn’t? That it’s not about the actions/toss from the players, but rather their names?

Double standards can be applied to behaviour or action and practically anything, regardless of the name of the player. This is what you're completely wrong about. For example the screaming that Ma Long did in all of his most important matches of his career, that screaming could be very easily decided by some umpires with this ridiculous rule being in that he's screaming too much. You are so far up in your own mislead perception about this that you don't even realize it of what this would result in.

That match of 2017 ML vs FZD would literally become mediocre of a show if ML wasn't screaming his lungs out there. And so you don't realize that because if such a ridiculous rule was in he might as well not do any of his roaring that he did in that match at all.

And any other players that are also vocal, regardless of what their name is, the judgement of some umpires would be completely biased where one umpire would deem this player's celebration as being ok and the other not ok. Ma Long's screaming which nobody seems to find annoying, could be very well be taken as "screaming" if he were to play any other player than Harimoto that isn't screaming. In fact I'm sure there were many matches for instance against Timo Boll where Ma Long was the screamer and not Timo Boll. And with your ridiculous rule he would be the one that would be shut down, completely destroying the adrenaline of his game as well as the atmosphere of the entire game of table tennis which he always brings in.

[pongfugrasshopper]

Carl explains the Kraker-Jack Hack in 67 seconds.

The code was written by Dominion Voting Systems .

[zeio]

Pick your daily fix.

Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npEIWCPONxM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFeZDRerXEY