Is Harimoto's screams disrespectful to the opponent?

NextLevel · Nov 16, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
If top athletes are so easily manipulated that an opponent celebrating points won causes them to be intimidated, I think we need to worry about the state of table tennis as an international sport.

Is being a social justice warrior snowflake about a kid revving himself up between points disrespectful to the sport and its top athletes? Is the manhood of our sport in jeopardy? I want to make a poll.

IT isn't this straightforward. Why do people like Ma Long and Xu Xin start choing more when they play Harimoto even if they don't cho as much when playing other people? It's one thing to cho during the tough matches but it is another to cho much more because you know your opponent's noisemaking is getting to you.

NextLevel · Nov 16, 2020

whocarez said:
I think he is not disrespectful at all. I hated the screaming in the beginning, but noticed that he has toned it down. Now I only find it only mildly annoying - rather whatever. I actually find Ovtcharov's moaning during play much more annoying - to a degree that it is sometimes almost unwatchable.

As already mentioned in the thread, Harimoto seems very humble about everything he does. He is also very careful to not scream at his opponent, but turns away when doing this. A practice commonly seen in games like Tennis, where the players also are very careful to turn away when celebrating or looking at your coach etc.

Yes, he has toned it down a bit - but it can still be annoying. And until the ITTF regulates it, it is within his right to do it. What I don't understand is why people are vilifying differences in opinion?

Simas · Nov 16, 2020

Just watched Harimoto vs Ma Long. Is it me, or since the restart it became so much worse? It's not that he is disrespectful on purpose, but nevertheless it's disturbing, unpleasant and soon will be unwatchable with the sound on..

Simas · Nov 16, 2020

NextLevel said:
Yes, he has toned it down a bit - but it can still be annoying. And until the ITTF regulates it, it is within his right to do it. What I don't understand is why people are vilifying differences in opinion?

Didn't notice that at all..

zyu81 · Nov 16, 2020

BetterTT said:
Harimoto is undoubtedly an excellent player and fun to watch...his game is exciting and his talent is immense. Having someone like him in the sport is a very good thing.

Nobody can say for sure what his intentions are with his loud and constant "cho-ing". Nobody knows. Some players "cho" in order to have some sort of influence on the opponents state of mind. Others do it almost involuntarily. His intentions do not matter nor can we pretend to know what they are.

What we do know is that he is a role model for many youngsters in the TT world, whether he wants to be or not. The same can be said about other players like Timo Boll or Ma Long. Do we really want to have a whole generation of players "cho-ing" like Harimoto does? Or do we want players to behave more like Timo Boll, who is clearly respected by everyone with very good reason? If Harimoto is allowed to "cho" like he does, then every player at every different level at every tournament and league match should be allowed to do that.

I am not making judgements here. I am asking, what do we want for the future of this wonderful sport? In behavioural terms, there is a saying: "permitting is promoting". What do we want to promote? I am not a fan of censorship, but we need to think about this issue in terms of the big picture.

A little food for thought: since you expressed in another thread that the ITTF immediately needs to have a product more marketable and entertaining for widespread international TV consumption, you may want to consider that this sort of behavior actually helps things to go viral. The sport isn't going to grow into an international TV phenomenon with a bunch of sterile personalities huffing and puffing for 30 minutes and then politely shaking hands.

NextLevel · Nov 16, 2020

zyu81 said:
A little food for thought: since you expressed in another thread that the ITTF immediately needs to have a product more marketable and entertaining for widespread international TV consumption, you may want to consider that this sort of behavior actually helps things to go viral. The sport isn't going to grow into an international TV phenomenon with a bunch of sterile personalities huffing and puffing for 30 minutes and then politely shaking hands.

Yeah, my wife recognizes Harimoto when he is on screen. Whether that is a good thing or not is up to each person to decide...

zyu81 · Nov 16, 2020

NextLevel said:
Yeah, my wife recognizes Harimoto when he is on screen. Whether that is a good thing or not is up to each person to decide...

Lol! What sells and gets media attention these days definitely isn't always going to be the purest or highest quality content, but if money and marketability is wanted in this sport it may be a necessary evil.

zyu81 · Nov 16, 2020

NextLevel said:
IT isn't this straightforward. Why do people like Ma Long and Xu Xin start choing more when they play Harimoto even if they don't cho as much when playing other people? It's one thing to cho during the tough matches but it is another to cho much more because you know your opponent's noisemaking is getting to you.

It could be that they truly find him annoying. It could also be that he is one of the few people who give them that tough match that you mention. Or maybe they see him as the biggest threat and feel a higher level of motivation. Or maybe they try to see how he reacts to his own behavior since he is younger and potentially more emotionally volatile. Nobody really knows. I definitely see why the behavior annoys some but I find it really limited to watching online. There have been cho monsters before and after Harimoto's emergence, and I think whether someone chooses to do it at all or to that degree is a factor of their personality and not how influenced they are by pros. But it always leads to heated discussion, gentleman's rules in all sports tend to be highly controversial.

NextLevel · Nov 16, 2020

zyu81 said:
It could be that they truly find him annoying. It could also be that he is one of the few people who give them that tough match that you mention. Or maybe they see him as the biggest threat and feel a higher level of motivation. Or maybe they try to see how he reacts to his own behavior since he is younger and potentially more emotionally volatile. Nobody really knows. I definitely see why the behavior annoys some but I find it really limited to watching online. There have been cho monsters before and after Harimoto's emergence, and I think whether someone chooses to do it at all or to that degree is a factor of their personality and not how influenced they are by pros. But it always leads to heated discussion, gentleman's rules in all sports tend to be highly controversial.

"Nobody really knows" but I can tell you that feisty ex-pro players I have spoken to have said they would find a way to upset someone who did what Harimoto was doing, and would consider taking action themselves if the umpire didn't. It's easier to avoid being upset by stuff if you are a much better player. But when times get tougb, having an anchor like the opponent screaming to mirror your struggles can be upsetting. My main point is that people shouldn't believe that such noise making doesn't affect pros when they clearly develop behaviors in response. And I remember someone saying that FTW was being encouraged by her coach to cho and was getting fined when she didn't do so. I think we should be a bit careful when we curtail the range of speculation on this issue when none of us is speaking authoritatively from the science.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 16, 2020

Arkady said:
You're missing the point: It doesn't really matter if the opponents are actually intimidated/irritated or not.
In fact it's not only about players only.

It's about fans as well and the sport in general. It's really annoying and disrespectful watching a player screaming and bending every single moment, like he's the possessed girl in the Exorcist...

From my perspective, you are missing the point. If this is an issue in any way, than I am wondering why some people are so fussy and find such small things to complain about.

Who the heck cares if someone makes noise between points. The question is, why does this actually bother you? What do you get out of complaining about it? Does this really bother you to the point that you want to discuss it here?

I also don't care if a player makes sound while striking the ball. The forced breath of a grunt while impacting the ball actually, MAKES YOUR MUSCLES CONTRACT HARDER--ALL OF YOUR MUSCLES--so it makes the shot more powerful. You might as well tell people not to breathe.

But someone who is grunting on contact is using a powerful forced exhale with phonation (the grunt) timed to the contact of the ball. What does this mean: that they are breathing in time with their stroke and this improves power on contact.

I would say, if you don't do some form of forced exhale or sound timed to your contact when hitting power shots, you might actually try and figure out why not and learn how to do it. It will improve your strokes and your power generation.

If you have ever been ringside for a boxing match, good boxers make a forced exhale on every single punch. The forced exhale does not need to include sound. But the sound causes you to recruit more muscle fibers and a fuller engagement on the forced exhale.

I wonder what some table tennis fans would do if there was some character in table tennis like Macho Camacho, Prince Naseem or Muhamed Ali.

LOL

NextLevel · Nov 16, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
From my perspective, you are missing the point. If this is an issue in any way, than I am wondering if the people who are most worried about this should be trying out for the part of the Princess in a version of The Princess and the Pea.

Who the heck cares if someone makes noise between points. The question is, why does this actually bother you to the point that you would want to discuss it on an online forum? Does this really cause you sleepless nights? Are you really so bothered by it that watching a different match isn't your first thought? And what does the fact that you are so invested in the issue say about you? I know people who are world class complainers. I always wonder what they think they get from that sort of fussiness. Why would this actually bother you?

I also don't care if a player makes sound while striking the ball. The forced breath of a grunt while impacting the ball actually, MAKES YOUR MUSCLES CONTRACT HARDER--ALL OF YOUR MUSCLES--so it makes the shot more powerful. You might as well tell people not to breath.

But someone who is grunting on contact is using a powerful forced exhale with phonation (the grunt) timed to the contact of the ball. What does this mean: that they are breathing in time with their stroke and this improves power on contact.

I would say, if you don't do some form of forced exhale or sound timed to your contact when hitting power shots, you might actually try and figure out why not and learn to do it. It will improve your strokes and your power generation.

If you have ever been ringside for a boxing match, good boxers make a forced exhale on every single punch.

So we should just allow people to do anything that potentially improves how well they play?

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 16, 2020

NextLevel said:
So we should just allow people to do anything that potentially improves how well they play?

It is a good point. I am not sure I would say that. But I don't think we should be worried about cho'ing between points or phonating (grunting) on contact: even if we don't like it. I just don't think it should be enough of an issue to bother us to this extent.

Would it be good for table tennis to have eccentric and colorful characters in the sport? I don't know. I always rooted against Naseem and Camacho but I always loved Ali. But all three characters gave me a rooting interest beyond just their fighting skills.

Would characters like that be beneficial or detrimental to TT? I don't know. But I think the way everyone is expected to behave like PC robots can make Table Tennis a little vanilla.

Why would cho'ing or grunting bother a spectator to that extent? I just don't see it as an issue and I do see the benefits of both to the player doing it.

Yes you can make a forced exhale without a sound on contact; the sound might add more power, but isn't essential. But is the sound really a big deal? Does Harimoto's cho'ing really matter that much?

zeio · Nov 16, 2020

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...Harimoto-a-Clear-Stream-of-World-Table-Tennis
http://china.cnr.cn/yaowen/20181219/t20181219_524454273.shtml
@17:30 http://cnvod.cnr.cn/audio2018/live/zgzs/201812/xwzh_20181219091136zgzs_h.m4a
http://www.radio.cn/pc-portal/sanji...undefined&date_checked=2018/12/19&title=cate#

　　刚从仁川归来，刘国梁接受了央广的专访。尽管在这次他亲自压阵的国际乒联世界巡回赛总决赛上，中国队的发挥并不那么出色，但在刘国梁的语气中，却察觉不到焦虑。他敞亮地谈起了从中国队囊中取走男单金牌的张本智和，“这么小的年纪，所取得的成绩和表现的冲击力确实是世界乒坛的一股清流。而且他现在才15岁，未来的威胁会越来越大。抛开华裔日本籍，单从他打球，从一个教练员的角度来看，还是很招人喜欢的，这样的运动员不可多得。”他说。

　　2018年，张本智和接连战胜了马龙、樊振东、林高远、张继科这四大国乒高手，成为了日本队冲击东京奥运会的王牌。但无论在中国还是在日本国内，他“激情”的比赛方式，都引来了不少争议。在这个问题上，刘国梁选择了体谅张本智和。他霸气表示，如果你是强者，便应该被这样的对手激发。“可能有些观众会觉得这样是不是不太友好，但我觉得无可厚非，他的打法风格和人的性格是紧密结合的，只有这样的运动员才能打到高水平。他在场上的叫声并不是针对对手，或者说不是针对中国运动员。从某种意义上来说，他的激情是在调动灵感。假设我是运动员，我很喜欢和这样的球员比赛。因为他能激发你的斗志，如果你也是强者；如果你是弱者，反而容易被他喊乱。”刘国梁表示。

Despite being at the helm at the ITTF World Tour Grand Finals
the CNT didn't perform that well
Yet, we didn't notice the slightest bit of anxiety in his tone
With a wry neck[a pun on his nickname]...
he openly talked about Tomokazu Harimoto, who snatched the men's singles gold medal from the CNT
Achieving this much at such a young age along with the impact displayed
he is indeed a clear stream of world table tennis
Even more, his threat will only grow in the future, given he's only 15 now
Setting aside his ethnicity and nationality
simply in terms of table tennis, speaking from the perspective of a coach
he's still very adorable
a player like him is hard to come by

In 2018, Harimoto defeated ML, FZD, LGY and ZJK, 4 of the top CNT players
becoming the gold-medal trump card for the JNT at the upcoming Tokyo Olympics
However, in China and Japan, his passionate game style has attracted a lot of controversy
On this issue, LGL has chosen to sympathize with Harimoto
In a domineering tone, he said if you're strong, then you should be even more inspired by such an opponent
Maybe some viewers will think that this is not very friendly
but I feel there is nothing wrong with it
His style of play and character are closely bonded
Only such athletes can reach a high level
Besides, his holler on the court is not directed at his opponents, or Chinese players
He acts the same way against players from other countries
In a sense, his passion is to mobilize his inspiration
Suppose I'm a player, I'd love to compete with such players
because he can unleash your fighting spirit, if you are also strong
If you are weak, it's easy to get shouted down

zeio · Nov 16, 2020

LGL: Are you strong or weak?

Takkyu_wa_inochi · Nov 16, 2020

I thought FZD and ML were also quite vocal in their final, especially in the last game, but nobody seems to notice or to care.

alas26 · Nov 16, 2020

I also don’t think it really bothers the pros. Liam Pitchford talks about it during the ML TH semifinal match if you watch the full stream.

I find it quite entertaining and wonder why so many people actually have a problem with it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Takkyu_wa_inochi · Nov 16, 2020

They just have bad memories of losing their little league games to chooo’ers and make some associations there

langel · Nov 16, 2020

Arkady said:
Harimoto on the other hand, shouts IN EVERY SINGLE POINT right from the first point,regardless if he won the point or it was an opponent's unforced error.

No, he doesn't shout on unforced errors. At that level 99% of the errors are forced, no matter how it look like on the TV screen.
And he doesn't shout on lucky points too.
Harimoto is still a child and he will be a child longer than the others at the same age, because his childhood is concentrated on playing TT only, and children Do have to shout when they play.
Look at your own children - do you stop them shouting when they play?
Do you hear cackling dinning hubbubs coming from the playgrounds round your home?
I do and I'm happy with that.

SamTheMan · Nov 16, 2020

zyu81 said:
A little food for thought: since you expressed in another thread that the ITTF immediately needs to have a product more marketable and entertaining for widespread international TV consumption, you may want to consider that this sort of behavior actually helps things to go viral. The sport isn't going to grow into an international TV phenomenon with a bunch of sterile personalities huffing and puffing for 30 minutes and then politely shaking hands.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:HyphenationZone>21</w:HyphenationZone> <w

unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w

oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>SV</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/> <w

ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> I disagree. I believe that if you want the sport to grow, you must promote the unique things about the sport. Keep and cherish the identity such as sportsmanship. By taking these things away, the sport won´t grow. There are wrestling and other sports for those who want drama, but I don´t think it´s the way to go for table tennis.

quanghuysk · Nov 16, 2020

nah nah, I won't reply to this kind of thread again.

...
hmm, I did

Is Harimoto's screams disrespectful to the opponent?

Is Harimoto's screaming disrespectful to the sport and to his opponents?

Yes

No

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