Is Harimoto's screams disrespectful to the opponent?

IB66 · Nov 21, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
I decided I wanted to become the grammar police.

Yourself is a reflexive pronoun. For a reflexive pronoun to be used, the pronoun must refer to the subject of the sentence or parenthetical phrase.

--If you really think that way, yourself.....
--I am going myself......
--He came up with that idea all by himself.....

Here are a few pulled off a grammar website:

--Jack decided to reward himself with a dinner out.
--Cynthia pours a cup of tea for herself every morning.

So, this:

--if that’s what the others and yourself think.....

Is incorrect usage of a reflexive pronoun. If you use the reflexive pronoun "yourself" then "you" (referring to me) would have to be the subject of that sentence, and it is not. From "That's" [contraction of that + the verb is] the That in "that's" is the subject and in that context it refers to the content that I abstained from voting because I disagree with the premise. And since "that's" and "yourself" are not the same thing or person, "yourself" is being used incorrectly.

Also, when someone says something like:

--John was joined by myself.....

That is incorrect grammar.

Here are some more examples of incorrect usage from the same grammar site:

-- Incorrect:Andrew and myself will conduct today’s meeting.
-- Incorrect: Myself will conduct today’s meeting.

I remember an old Nike commercial where Michael Jordan and Patrick Ewing were on and Jordan said: "For a big guy, like myself." The commercial was funny, but that is incorrect usage of the reflexive pronoun.

Reflexive pronouns are used incorrectly all the time. All the time.

But this is an issue where there is not any shade of gray. The rules of grammar are clear. A reflexive pronoun refers to and is equal to the subject of the sentence or phrase within which it is contained. If it is used in a sentence and it is not referring back to and synonymous with the subject of the sentence or parenthetical phrase it is contained in, then it is being used incorrectly. Look it up on any grammar site or in any grammar book.

However, the subject of this thread: should a person be allowed to celebrate after winning a point or should the behavior be banned.....IS NOT A BLACK AND WHITE QUESTION. There are times when freedom of expression would be valuable and important. And there are times when the celebration has crossed a line.

Has Harimoto crossed a line? Is what he is doing no longer the sphere of celebration and free expression and is it now in the territory of UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT?

Well, it seems different people have different thresholds for where this divide is crossed. Passifid gave a good example of where the line may clearly be crossed where all would agree: if a player crossed over and punched the opponent, most, I have a feeling, would agree, that would cross a line. When Mike Tyson bit off Evander Hollyfield's right ear, most would agree that crossed a line. That the ref let them continue fighting may have been questionable. But it happened. However, when Tyson went and bit off Hollyfield's other ear, not many thought the fight should continue. (Yes, if you missed it, that happened. Look it up.)

I think that puts the discussion more in the sphere it belongs in. And I think the people thinking there are easy answers to this, ought to think very long and hard about what the actual subject matter they are discussing actually is. Do you value freedom of expression, and where does that end? This can be discussed without shaming any players or attempting to force people into opinions they don't actually hold.

---Is what Harimoto doing in the sphere of freedom of expression and celebration after winning a point (regardless of whether it is annoying or not)?
---Or is what Harimoto is doing crossing a clear line in the sand into the territory of unsportsmanlike conduct?

Grammar was never my strong point

and never will be !!i

my post #260 was dome when you did yours #257 & #259.!!

L

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 21, 2020

Our minds like the ease and convenience of binary thinking: up-down, hot-cold, right-left, right-wrong, good-bad....but that is not really how the world works, even though our minds would like it to work that way.

I used to teach at this hot yoga center. People would walk into the lobby of the center and say: "oh, it is hot in here." They would go change, they would walk into the yoga room and they would say: "ooh, it is hot in here." They would practice, get all sweaty, and walk out into the lobby and say: "oh, it is cold out here." Now the temperature of the lobby had not changed. What changed that caused the same people who 90 minutes earlier had said: "oh it is hot in here," to say: "oh, it is cold out here," about a room whose temperature had not changed?

Is "hot" or "cold" a set commodity? Or is it a relative term? Hot in comparison to what? Good in comparison to what?

Now, our minds like to think in binary terms. But reality always has many more shades of grey (or is that gray). And because we are sitting at computer screens with keyboards, it is easy to think: "I am right, this is the one and only way it is, and everyone who disagrees with me is just wrong." Computers, the internet, social media, these forums, tend to amplify that kind of thinking.

This may be some of how the right is being pushed further out to the right and the left is being pushed further out to the left and the divisions between people are being amplified in our world.

But in its simplest form, the question at hand is:

Where does celebration of a point won stop and conscious, malicious intent to harm an opponent's chances of winning (unsportsmanlike conduct) begin?

I will suggest, the answers that people are giving need to be much better thought out than they have been up to this point. Because these are not such easy questions to answer.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 21, 2020

IB66 said:
Grammar was never my strong point and never will be !!i

my post #260 was dome when you did yours #257 & #259.!!

L

Nor Dan's.

hahahaha.

Clearly, I used it as an object lesson for the comparison between something with a clear cut and easy answer, and a subject with much more of a gray area and not such clear cut answers until you are biting someone's ear off.

And somehow, Tyson was given the benefit of the doubt even after biting one ear....so....apparently, in boxing, two ears is where the line is drawn.....

Bite one ear....maybe he was hungry....or maybe he was just expressing himself....bite two ears....now we know where you are coming from....

[addition: oh, it is interesting that I posted to long pedantic posts before you posted one short one, and yet yours was written....at the same time?....before?.....or was it written before you saw mine, even if, after mine were posted?....

]

IB66 · Nov 21, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
Nor Dan's. hahahaha.

Clearly, I used it as an object lesson for the comparison between something with a clear cut and easy answer, and a subject with much more of a gray area and not such clear cut answers until you are biting someone's ear off.

Yeah, I get that, but the concept of a Poll, with 2 options, is exactly that!! This is my point.

it’s the same for elections, as well you all know in the USA and here in the UK regarding the the vote we had about staying or leaving the EU!!!!
loads of grey, but at the end of the day you have a choice of 2!! So you evaluate and choose who or what you think is best or right

Everyone would like to cherry pick the best bits, but at present we can’t do that.

So if you don’t vote, then you have to live with other peoples choices. Some people just ain’t bothered, because they think it’s just the same whoever wins!! Life goes on!!
This Poll is meaningless, but now we can see how close people’s thoughts are on a subject, no landslide win here!!!

This Poll is split right down the middle!! like both the above mentioned USA election and UK vote re the EU !!!
I’m taking Trumps stance and demanding a recount, in the mean time the Yeses have it !! Even if they are behind!!!

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 21, 2020

IB66 said:
Yeah, I get that, but the concept of a Poll, with 2 options, is exactly that!! This is my point.

it’s the same for elections, as well you all know in the USA and here in the UK regarding the the vote we had about staying or leaving the EU!!!!
loads of grey, but at the end of the day you have a choice of 2!! So you evaluate and choose who or what you think is best or right

Everyone would like to cherry pick the best bits, but at present we can’t do that.

So if you don’t vote, then you have to live with other peoples choices. Some people just ain’t bothered, because they think it’s just the same whoever wins!! Life goes on!!
This Poll is meaningless, but now we can see how close people’s thoughts are on a subject, no landslide win here!!!

This Poll is split right down the middle!! like both the above mentioned USA election and UK vote re the EU !!!
I’m taking Trumps stance and demanding a recount, in the mean time the Yeses have it !! Even if they are behind!!!

We disagree here too. There are more than two choices. I choose door three!

In 2000, a lot of people who supported Gore complained that the people who voted for Nadar were throwing their vote away and should have voted for Gore. But that makes an assumption that, if they didn't vote for Nadar they would have voted for Gore.

And, this poll was put in the thread by someone whose whole premise I reject. I don't care what the results of the vote are. I feel they go right to dividing us rather than anything useful. And the poll, and most of the comments on this thread don't address the issue:

Where is the line crossed?

Should the ref in the Tyson v Hollyfield fight ended the fight after the first bite? How many people would have complained the fight was ended unfairly? Don't laugh....there were people back then who felt it was unfair the fight was ended after the second bite.

Is there a clear line?

Should someone be penalized in TT for celebrating when they win a point?

What celebration is okay and what amount is no longer okay?

Can you have a rule about a grey area that is coherent? Would it be possible to implement?

Can people on this forum come to a consensus about what is a clear cut crossing of the boundary between celebration and unsportsmanlike conduct?

Was it hot in the lobby of the yoga studio or cold?

How does a person's current state of mind, mood or other things affect their perspective on this subject?

Would the same person come to a different conclusion about when celebration has crossed the line if it was a different player? Like, say you had someone's least favorite player, would that player cross that line sooner than their favorite player?

Are there answers to these questions?

By not voting, I am confirming that I believe the gray area is larger than either YES or NO can encapsulate.

And you trying to decide with phony rationalizations that my not voting means one or the other, is you either being an entertaining harlequin, or just not being able to understand the actual issue.

Baal · Nov 21, 2020

The NFL has an excessive celebration rule that is enforced at the referee's discretion. Maybe TT could just do that. It probably wouldn't be more chaotic than discretion in calling serves.

IB66 · Nov 21, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
We disagree here too. There are more than two choices.

In 2000, a lot of people who supported Gore complained that the people who voted for Nadar were throwing their vote away and should have voted for Gore. But that makes an assumption that, if they didn't vote for Nadar they would have voted for Gore.

And, this vote was put there by someone whose whole premise I reject. I don't care what the results of the vote are. I feel they go right to dividing us rather than anything useful. And the poll, and most of the comments on this thread don't address the issue:

Where is the line crossed?

Should the ref in the Tyson v Hollyfield fight ended the fight after the first bite? How many people would have complained the fight was ended unfairly? Don't laugh....there were people back then who were arguing that it was totally okay that Tyson bit Hollyfield because Hollyfield was head butting Tyson (and Tyson was not throwing his head at Hollyfield's).

Is there a clear line?

Should someone be penalized in TT for celebrating when they win a point?

What celebration is okay and what amount is no longer okay?

Can a rule about a gray area be fairly implemented?

Can people on this forum come to a consensus about what is a clear cut crossing of the boundary between celebration and unsportsmanlike conduct?

If you cannot answer these questions in a way where EVERYONE on the forum agrees with your assessments, then I don't have to vote one way or another.

By not voting, I am confirming that I believe the gray area is larger than either YES or NO can encapsulate.

At the end of the day for the final election - ‘labels’ 2 no, Democrat or Republican. That’s how it’s seen and that’s how it’s reported.
If you are disputing that then ???????

Where is the line crossed? Well roughly 50% think ‘a’ line has been crossed and 50% don’t.

is there a clear line? No, but 100% think there is a line. But not a rule.

should someone be penalised in TT for celebrating when they win a point? Yes, if it’s against a rule.

what celebration is okay? As many fist pumps as you like (but 1 per point and lasting for max 1 second) 4 Cho’s per game per player any volume.

what amount is no longer okay? More than 4 Cho’s per player per game

Can a rule about a grey area be fairly implemented? If there’s a rule is it ‘grey’? No , is that rule fair? Possibly not. That depends on your point of view, 31 in a 30 mph speed limit !!! But the rule is set and the consequences are put in place should the rule be broken.

Can people on this Forum come to a consensus about what a clear cut crossing of the boundary between celebration and unsportsmanlike conduct?
I’ve never read all of the table tennis rules, is there one in place already regarding unsportsmanlike conduct? The OP’s post says disrespectful not Unsportsmanlike.
As usual, I would think these rules defining things like ‘unsportsmanlike’ are open to interpretation. But if the forum could see the rule / description used by ITTF that would be a start. Then it can be related to players behaviour.

As for the last couple of statements,
‘Everyone’ or 100% of the Forum is a bit lame and basically un-achievable.
So I given some answers or ideas to your questions.
What are your answers to those questions? What are your lines?
perhaps by putting some guidelines in place, the areas of Grey may be reduced to smaller ares that you can vote on?

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 22, 2020

IB66 said:
At the end of the day....

I think I have been pretty clear. Based on your responses I have to conclude that you must be incapable of understanding or purposefully misunderstanding. Sorry. But, your comments are all a waste of time.

SamTheMan · Nov 22, 2020

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ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Players reactions after winning a point never results in a yellow card. Players reactions after loosing a point sometimes results in a yellow card. Players get a yellow card for throwing their racket or kicking the table. But no discussions about colourful figures who makes storyline being hindered their way to express themselves in the sphere of freedom.

And no discussion on grey zone and where to draw the line. If a player drops his racket is that a yellow card or is it only if he throws it hard or is it somewhere in between?

My point is, that most sports including table tennis already has these kinds of rules. IF you would like to add a rule about screaming. It doesn´t need to be: x times screaming is allowed or screaming is allowed at x decibel. An individual umpire will interpret the rule in his way, if it´s too much the player will get a yellow card and know where the line is. Plenty of rules in sport are like this. Like in football or hockey, some contact is allowed, but not too much. It’s up to the referee or the umpire to interpret the rules.

IB66 · Nov 22, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
I think I have been pretty clear. Based on your responses I have to conclude that you must be incapable of understanding. Sorry. But, your comments are all a waste of time.

Well I’m sorry you feel that way. It appears you think this thread is a waste of time not only my comments. So yes I don’t understand why you are posting on it.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 22, 2020

IB66 said:
Well I’m sorry you feel that way. It appears you think this thread is a waste of time not only my comments. So yes I don’t understand why you are posting on it.

What I feel is a waste of time is you trying to force answers into my mouth that are not from me, and you trying to present this as a simple issue and that your solution is the ONE.

If you can’t tell what issues in this thread are interesting to me, based on what I have written in the thread, then I suggest you read and try to figure it out rather than trying to force answers on someone that they actually don’t agree with which makes it very clear that you don’t even remotely understand what I’ve said.

You are falling right into what I described when I was talking about how social media and the internet radicalizes people by feeding into how the mind likes and wants to gravitate towards binary thinking.

Was it hot in the yoga studio’s lobby or cold? What was the point of that story. Why did the same people who said the lobby was hot, 90 min later say the lobby was cold when the temperature in the lobby had not changed.

IB66 · Nov 22, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
What I feel is a waste of time is you trying to force answers into my mouth that are not from me, and you trying to present this as a simple issue and that your solution is the ONE.

If you can’t tell what issues in this thread are interesting to me, based on what I have wrote in the thread, then I suggest you read and try to figure it out rather than trying to force answers on someone that they actually don’t agree with which makes it very clear that you don’t even remotely understand what I’ve said.

You are falling right into what I described when I was talking about how social media and the internet radicalizes people by feeding into how the mind likes and wants to gravitate towards binary thinking.

Was it hot in the yoga studio’s lobby or cold? What was the point of that story. Why did the same people who said the lobby was hot, 90 min later say the lobby was cold when the temperature in the lobby had not changed.

I’m sorry that you feel forced into making a response in the form of an answer.

zyu81 · Nov 22, 2020

IB66 said:
I’m sorry that you feel forced into making a response in the form of an answer.

It is ignorant to get fixated over a biased poll question, which doesn't cover all of the interesting aspects of the broader discussion. This is what you are doing. Some people would rather TALK about all of those things, which is what has been done in this thread, rather than obsessing over said poll. Because a single poll answer cannot represent and speak for the complex subjects that are involved in the whole discussion.

You are still obsessing over the poll rather than engaging in the complex subjects related to the broader discussion at hand. And nobody is interested in discussing the poll and only the poll.

Does this make sense now?

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 22, 2020

IB66 said:
I’m sorry that you feel forced into making a response in the form of an answer.

--nuance
--subtlety
--meaning
--reading comprehension

**trying to force
**force

I do not feel you are forcing ME to do anything.

I do feel you are TRYING to force meaning onto things I said, that do not have anything to do with the meaning of what I wrote.

One time in a college lit class on Shakespeare, a student said: "but aren't all interpretations valid?" And the teacher responded: "well, we have a text here. And some interpretations are close to the text. And some just have nothing to do with the text. So, the question of validity involves how close an interpretation is to the actual content of the original text; how possible it is to demonstrate that the original text actually leads you to the interpretation you came to."

So, even in this statement: "I'm sorry that you feel forced into making a response in the form of an answer." shows that you did not understand what I meant when I suggested that you read what I have written and try to figure out what I actually mean rather than trying to force your opinions into what I wrote as though I mean what you have said I meant.

The specific paragraph in question is:

UpSideDownCarl said:
If you can’t tell what issues in this thread are interesting to me, based on what I have written in the thread, then I suggest you read and try to figure it out rather than trying to force answers on someone that they actually don’t agree with which makes it very clear that you don’t even remotely understand what I’ve said.

What was the story about the lobby in the yoga studio about? Did you understand the story? Why did people say the lobby felt one way, and then 90 minutes later they said the lobby felt entirely the opposite way when nothing had changed IN THE LOBBY? What had changed that caused the lobby to feel hot at one point and cold at another point, when the actual temperature was exactly the same?

What has caused you not to understand what I have said over and over and to try and insist that, what I said meant something that I then insisted again and again, had nothing to do with what I actually wrote or what was meant by what I wrote?

Towards the beginning of this encounter between us you wrote:

IB66 said:
Having just ate a dictionary for lunch!! Invalid ( based on an argument / statement or theory) would mean ‘not true because based on erroneous information or unsound reasoning’ therefore an answer of NO would be forthcoming.

Which indicates you can only understand: if the premise of the question in the poll is correct then the answer is: Yes, Harimoto's screaming is disrespectful to the sport. If the premise of the poll is INVALID, then the answer to the poll MUST BE NO, Harimoto's screaming is not disrespectful to the sport. But of course this is not accurate. If the premise of the poll is valid, you could vote either yes or no to answer the question.

And, actually, what the idea that the whole poll, which includes both yes and no answers, is invalid means is that both answers, and the thought process that would lead someone to think only yes and no answers are possible, is an INVALID premise. This is why I explained about the grey area and how, clearly, sometimes post point celebration is okay, and that there may be circumstances where post point celebrations are not okay. And then there is a giant area in between okay and clearly not okay where the answer simply is not clear.

Where is the line? Different people are going to have different answers to that. Not only that, the same person is going to have different answers to that at different points in time (which was part of the point of the story of the lobby in the yoga studio). When someone's perspective changes, their answer to the question may very well change.

If it was your favorite player who was shouting, would the line, would where the line was crossed, be the same, or would they have farther to go in that grey area before they had crossed the line?

I think for most people, the line would move depending on how much a person likes the specific player being reprimanded for the celebration. I think human psychology determines that the line would move. Which is why Tyson fans thought it was unfair Tyson was ejected for biting and claimed that it was just that Tyson bit Hollyfield's ear because Hollyfield was head butting. Tyson fans saw Hollyfield head butting. Hollyfield fans saw Tyson head butting. Their heads collided multiple times before the ear biting. Who was actually doing the head butting? Was Tyson justified in biting? What could be said of the state of mind of someone convinced it was okay for Tyson to bite?

In basketball games I have watched, when I DON'T have a rooting interest, I have noticed that the referees in a basketball game often call the game in a way that is not even or balanced. Often something that is called a foul on one team, is not called a foul on another team. I have seen this switch. I have seen the same team of referees make calls consistently in favor of one team in one arena and then where the calls are favored switches in a different arena with the same refs and the same two basketball teams. How does the home field "advantage" cause the refs to make calls that are biased on one side in one arena and biased in the exact opposite direction in another arena?

This subject of human perception and how our perspective can change and we can have different answers to the same question based on things that are internal rather than based on the external, objective facts. This is interesting to me. What is the human component? How is this affecting people's judgements on this issue?

Der_Echte · Nov 22, 2020

I took Carl a while to get there in post 265 (took Carl until the last sentence), but he dun connected hiz teeth to da bone.

Carl be trying to take my rambling man title from me by sheer force and volume.

Der_Echte · Nov 22, 2020

Carl the Freedom Fighter said:
I do feel you are TRYING to force meaning onto things I said, that do not have anything to do with the meaning of what I wrote.

Man, Carl coming right out an sayin' dude is acting like one of those lawyers (of which our nation has made hundreds of lawyer jokes) who ruined aspects of American life by twisting words to get them to mean something they were not meant to be...

yogi_bear · Nov 22, 2020

Has the pandemic given us too much time that even this issue has degenerated into judging a person outside the game due to his screaming??

NextLevel · Nov 22, 2020

yogi_bear said:
Has the pandemic given us too much time that even this issue has degenerated into judging a person outside the game due to his screaming??

He's a celebrity - it is inevitable.

zeio · Nov 22, 2020

To help IB66 grasp the idea that seems rather abstract to him:

Below is a question drawn from a real-life incident that happened in Hong Kong a while ago that led to some serious consequences since it had to do with the historical events among China, Hong Kong and the Great Britain.

"Do you agree the Great Britain waged the Opium War on the Great Qing in order to get rid of Opium in China?"

It's not about YES or NO here. The question itself(correct use of grammar) is invalid because the proposition/premise is not in line with the historical events that actually took place.

https://www.scmp.com/article/974360/opium-war-or-how-hong-kong-began

1820 - Import of opium begins in earnest

China is willing to provide Britain with tea and other luxury goods, but is unwilling to accept anything but silver as payment. The British have to import silver from Europe or Mexico. They run into a trade deficit and seek ways to counter-trade. They find a solution in an Indian narcotic: opium. In the next few years, the amount of opium imported to China increases dramatically. Tensions arise because, in China, opium can only be used as a medicine. It has been banned as a recreational drug for more than 100 years.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Opium-Wars

The first Opium War was the result of China’s attempt to suppress the illegal opium trade, which had led to widespread addiction in China and was causing serious social and economic disruption there. British traders were the primary source of the drug in China. The second Opium War was the result of the desire of Great Britain and France to win additional commercial privileges in China, including the legalization of the opium trade, as well as to gain more legal and territorial concessions in China.

Here's another one. True story, again happened in Hong Kong from just a while ago.

"Do you believe paper was invented by China in order to prevent the extinction of wild animals since turtle plastron and animal bones etc. were used by Chinese for recording purposes in the distant past?

Same as the question above, it's invalid. Bamboo and wooden slips Were used before paper was invented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo_and_wooden_slips

Bamboo and wooden slips (Chinese: 简牍; pinyin: jiǎndú) were the main media for writing documents in China before the widespread introduction of paper during the first two centuries AD. (Silk was occasionally used, for example in the Chu Silk Manuscript, but was prohibitively expensive for most documents.)[1]

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 22, 2020

zeio said:
The question itself(correct use of grammar)....

Nice touch. This made me laugh.

Is Harimoto's screams disrespectful to the opponent?

Is Harimoto's screaming disrespectful to the sport and to his opponents?

Yes

No

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