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  1. Zain Khan is offline
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    #21
    First off.. don't listen to people on here who are saying "just flick it!!" You are not at that level yet and without the right technique you "flick" is just going to develop bad habits. I can almost guarantee that if your opponents don't know how to loop either, 90% of their "pushes" are going long.

    Otherwise, I know your pain all to well. Being a newer player myself that loves watching the amazing rallies of the pros, I absolutely hated the fact that most of my games didn't involve a SINGLE top spin shot...

    The only way around it is what everyone is saying... you have to learn to loop. Problem is, you can practice it all day, but when the match comes, you get scared and just go back to pushing.

    Ultimately you will have to change what "winning" means. Winning doesn't have to be winning the games against the same people you play everyday. Winning needs to become *actually improving your game*. So with that, for the next 6 months, win or lose, your only focus should be looping every backspin that comes off the table. Even if you send 11 balls into the net every game for a few weeks, I guarantee you'll get a little better and better at it as times goes on. And before you know it, looping backspin balls will be second nature, and you will be leagues ahead of all those annoying pushers.

    It worked for me, and I know it can work for you. Good luck!!

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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by EyyT
    want to know other alternatives other than keep pushing.
    I mean you already know the answer to this.

    Learn to open up & loop backspin.

    "But Suds I stink at doing that. That's why we push."

    Do you want to get better or not?

    A good buddy of mine once told me this in regards to house projects when I was first out of college or somewhere around that time. He said "I mean you could either be a p#$$y your whole life and never get anything done or you could get your hands dirty and figure it out. If you mess up, you mess up. But at least you'll learn."

    That mindset can really be applied to just about any skill in life. Don't be afraid. Learn how to do it. 5 months from now you'll be a different player.

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    Last edited by suds79; 11-18-2020 at 09:29 PM.
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    #23
    That’s the thing. 5 months, 6 months of continuous losing for a human being feels like infinity.

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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K
    That’s the thing. 5 months, 6 months of continuous losing for a human being feels like infinity.
    I should't be about winning or losing. I don't think i played a single match the first year i played. Just do practice drills. Short serve, your mate pushes and you open with loop. Get multiple balls and do this for 10 minutes. Then your mate serves and opens with loop

  5. Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K
    That’s the thing. 5 months, 6 months of continuous losing for a human being feels like infinity.
    I don't think it needs 5-6 months to get started. Of course, it will take more time to learn how to kill every pusher, even years. But for most kids at my club, it usually takes about a max of 1-2 months to get started. It takes more practice to pick balls to open up and even more time to perfect the skill... But in my opinion, when OP will learn the basics of it, it will relieve the pressure and tension...

  6. pingpongpaddy is offline
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by EyyT
    I dont knwo if chopping is the right word to use but I play at a Begginer-intermediate level and after a backsping serve me and the opponent just keep pushing the ball (making backsping with just the touch of the rubber) it can be until 10+ pushes if we are consistent enough, and none will topspin because we both know we cant do it well, and I find it annoying, want to know other alternatives other than keep pushing.
    hi eyyT
    I think you need to practice topspin in a more fundamental way
    you and your partner should get a bucket of balls and practice spin like this:

    1. your partner has a bucket of balls and feeds you a gentle long push to one spot
      you try to execute a topspin so that the ball passes at least 2 feet over the net and then dips onto the table Dont bother about speed just concentrate on brushing up the back of the ball lightly but as fast as possible with as much arc on the ball flight as possible. Swap roles a hundred balls each, spend at least half an hour per session on it. After a while increase the backspin on the push.
    2. bucket of balls. stand 3 feet behind the table bounce ball on floor so that it rises above knee height. Brush with topspin to create the looping arc so that it passes high over the net and dips onto the end line . Concentrate on the brushing contact and maximise spin and heighr over net.
    3. After doing the above exercises finish with some gentle pushing where feeder pushes to one spot and worker pushes one and topspins the next.
      good luck

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  7. tt_beginner is offline
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by pingpongpaddy
    hi eyyT
    I think you need to practice topspin in a more fundamental way
    you and your partner should get a bucket of balls and practice spin like this:

    1. your partner has a bucket of balls and feeds you a gentle long push to one spot
      you try to execute a topspin so that the ball passes at least 2 feet over the net and then dips onto the table Dont bother about speed just concentrate on brushing up the back of the ball lightly but as fast as possible with as much arc on the ball flight as possible. Swap roles a hundred balls each, spend at least half an hour per session on it. After a while increase the backspin on the push.
    2. bucket of balls. stand 3 feet behind the table bounce ball on floor so that it rises above knee height. Brush with topspin to create the looping arc so that it passes high over the net and dips onto the end line . Concentrate on the brushing contact and maximise spin and heighr over net.
    3. After doing the above exercises finish with some gentle pushing where feeder pushes to one spot and worker pushes one and topspins the next.
      good luck
    what if you don't have a partner?

  8. yogi_bear is offline
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    #28
    Forget about winning and learn the hard way. Learn to loop during practice and matchplays.

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  9. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by tt_beginner
    what if you don't have a partner?
    Self Hitting, 2 bounces before you hit:



    Above is something you can do to practice looping. I have a bucket of balls and I am self hitting. Key pieces of information:

    1) For FH, because you would be looping over the table, you sort of need to be all the way at the BH side of the table to practice what I am doing because then you can stand to the side of the table and take the ball while it is over the table.
    2) When people try what I am doing with only 1 bounce, often they rush to drop, set and contact, and then cannot get good form or a good quality stroke which is part of the purpose of the exercise.

    ---
    Other details of importance:

    In the video, I am looping forward and the speed/spin ratio is close to even. If you were working on the feel for looping backspin, you would be better off brushing thinner and trying to make the ball slow and spinning so that you had a high spin/speed ratio. So, same exercise but slow loops with a lot of arc.

    Also, because, with BH, it is easy to take the ball over the table, this can be practiced with BH from anywhere.

    Yogi has posted videos of him practicing self hitting from behind the table where the ball bounces on the floor. That exercise would help as well. And that exercise would make it so you could practice from any angle facing the table. But, for looping backspin, where I am positioned is more like how you would be looping backspin when you are opening off a loop.

    Another also, I am not looping backspin. But the ball has No-Spin and that is something good to practice as well. It is different from looping backspin or topspin. But if you are brushing heavily and making the ball go slow with A LOT OF SPIN and ARC, then it will help you develop some of the skill and feeling you need to loop backspin.

    To do what I am doing, all you really need is a bucket of balls. 10 would be enough. I used to use a bucket with a gross of balls (=12x12=144) but as long as you can do a bunch in a row and then just go pick the balls up, it doesn't really matter if it is 10, 20, 50......

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  10. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear
    Forget about winning and learn the hard way. Learn to loop during practice and matchplays.
    Can you post your self hitting video so tt_beginner can see self hitting from behind the table in addition to the video I posted. I think that version will also help him.

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  11. pingpongpaddy is offline
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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by tt_beginner
    what if you don't have a partner?
    2 does not require a partner

    as a beginner
    in a club it can be difficult, but if no coach is available then you need to have the nerve to ask your new clubmates
    to help you.
    I think you'll find that experienced players will be quite happy to give you a bit of multiball if they see you are keen.
    You should learn to give multiball yourself

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  12. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    #32
    The biggest keys to know, I think, but it is long enough since I learned how to do this that you forget some things....the biggest key in my opinion, in looping backspin is:

    1) The feeling of thin contact, sort of thin but letting the topsheet grab and hold the ball.
    2) The feeling of how the topsheet distorts when the topsheet really grabs a backspin ball.
    3) The touch of contacting delicately but firmly.
    4) Contacting the ball tangentially rather than making direct contact.

    When you are solid at looping backspin, you start being able to make deeper or thinner contact based on what kind of shot you want to make. You also start to be able to decide, more power, less power, more spin/speed, more speed/spin.

    As you get good at the basic skill you start being able to make many more choices in how you are going to open against backspin.

    But the first issue is how you touch the ball to take the backspin and turn it into your own topspin.

    I also guess, something in the theoretical sphere worth understanding in this is: if you take the spin on the ball (backspin) and do nothing but change the direction of the ball, then backspin, going the other way, becomes topspin. So, in theory, all you have to do is direct the ball so it starts going towards your opponent without the spin on the ball significantly changing.

    BrokenBall would explain this as: if the speed of the racket is equal to the speed of the backspin on contact, you will be able to loop the ball back. So, these concepts--feeling of contact, racket speed on contact, feeling of rubber grabbing ball, touch and depth of contact, and TANGENTIAL contact--will help you learn to loop backspin.

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    #33
    thanks for the advices guys, this has been a revelation, my mind is blown, never thought of hitting the ball that way, thinly brushing it at the same time hitting it

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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

    : the speed of the racket is equal to the speed of the backspin on contact, you will be able to loop the ball back . So, these concepts--feeling of contact, racket speed on contact, feeling of rubber grabbing ball, touch and depth of contact, and TANGENTIAL contact--will help you learn to loop backspin.

    sorry to nitpick
    i would suggest
    the speed of the racket is less than the speed of the backspin on contact == ball in net
    the speed of the racket is equal to the speed of the backspin on contact == if ball higher than net ball can be driven
    the speed of the racket is greater than the speed of the backspin on contact == successful loop against chop


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    Last edited by pingpongpaddy; 11-19-2020 at 03:28 PM.
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  15. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by pingpongpaddy

    sorry to nitpick
    i would suggest
    the speed of the racket is less than the speed of the backspin on contact == ball in net
    the speed of the racket is equal to the speed of the backspin on contact == if ball higher than net ball can be driven
    the speed of the racket is greater than the speed of the backspin on contact == successful loop against chop


    Well stated.

    And the faster the racket, the more spin you can import onto the ball as you loop.

    So, the important detail is that, if the bat speed is not as fast as the speed of the backspin, on contact, you won't be betting the ball over the net and onto the table.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 11-20-2020 at 12:07 AM.
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    #36
    Well tbh, it’s mostly the contact that’s tricky. It’s not very hard to make the racket moving fast. But it’s is hard to make it moving very fast while still touching the ball right. If the new learner focus too much on speed, he/she is gonna almost certain smash into the ball. This is why my semi-pro friends and coaches emphasise “Quality shot”.

    it’s also no coincidence that a good spin player tends to also have a good touch. In my personal brain, spin is just a touch with speed.

    one MUST be able to loop the ball without effort before adding power into it. Otheriwse it’s gonna take very very long time to learn that touch.

    I guess Im probably repeating carl’original post but just want to clarify what to focus on FIRST.

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  17. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango K
    Well tbh, it’s mostly the contact that’s tricky. It’s not very hard to make the racket moving fast. But it’s is hard to make it moving very fast while still touching the ball right. If the new learner focus too much on speed, he/she is gonna almost certain smash into the ball. This is why my semi-pro friends and coaches emphasise “Quality shot”.

    it’s also no coincidence that a good spin player tends to also have a good touch. In my personal brain, spin is just a touch with speed.

    one MUST be able to loop the ball without effort before adding power into it. Otheriwse it’s gonna take very very long time to learn that touch.

    I guess Im probably repeating carl’original post but just want to clarify what to focus on FIRST.
    Same thing said in a different way is usually very helpful. So this way of expressing it is good.

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    #38
    Hi well first off, it's easy to say 'just flick it'! But given the difficulty of that I think you need a strategy: practice pushing right to the line, and pushing short, push short then more agressively deep and then you may not need anything fruity just a smash finish ????

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    #39
    One of our favorite drills is what we call the push drill. The server serves a short under spin ball and we push until we can attack it.

    What you do depends on how long and high the ball is. If it is going to double bounce on your side you probably want to push it back. If the ball is going to bounce and then go off the table you should be able to loop it.
    Flicks and similar work if the ball is short and high.

    After years of doing our "push drill" there isn't much pushing anymore unless the pushes are very short and low. We now can attack a lot of balls that years ago we would push back.

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  20. Der_Echte is offline
    says Grand Consultant to the Office of the Goon Squad
     
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    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by ianGen2
    Hi well first off, it's easy to say 'just flick it'! But given the difficulty of that I think you need a strategy: practice pushing right to the line, and pushing short, push short then more agressively deep and then you may not need anything fruity just a smash finish ????
    I think Ian is "Barking up the right tree" as Americans would say.

    I think his approach to consider what a player can currently do, then work within those constraints to improve performance is a wise approach. Of course, there should be strategic goals and training to reach them, so the player has new capabilities and less constraints...


    ... but to see someone hit the brakes on all the macho-man suggestions and be real is is something you do not see every memebr or coach do.

    If all you can curretnly do is push... and cannot push short... then you look for opponent tendencies and push to their middle (often a moving target, but find it!) or wide then another place... if you learn variation in grip at impact, you can now make dead-ish returns... if pushed will now be high and a chance to hit if you cannot loop.

    Suggestions of that nature make a lot more sense right now... yet everyone is correct in their suggestions of more advanced options, but as STRATEGIC GOAL DEVELOPMENT, instead of putting that to immediate use which would be more like Titanic disaster just waiting to happen.

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    Last edited by Der_Echte; 01-18-2021 at 02:44 AM.
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