Which long pips

[Basmundo]

So back to my original question when raising this thread:

For a block and push game close to the table to achieve setups for my forehand: Hellfire or D.tecS?

[PushSmasher]

So back to my original question when raising this thread:

For a block and push game close to the table to achieve setups for my forehand: Hellfire or D.tecS?

I think we have beat that horse to death already.

[brokenball]

I still want to know what disruption is and what is the force that causes disruption.
I think it is all BS.
Prove me wrong but I bet you can't.
TT forums are full of opinions and they are like a$$holes and armpits. They all stink.
Now show me the proof or go home with your tail between your legs.
Where is the equation for the disruptive force?

[Basmundo]

This article by Greg Letts that may help:

What is the ‘Wobble’?

When we talk about the long pimples wobbling, what exactly do we mean? In most cases, players are referring to the ability of the long pimpled rubber to make the ball seem to dip, rise, and suddenly go to the side while in flight. When you are playing against a person using long pimples, and the ball coming towards you suddenly seems to drop six inches then go sideways for no apparent reason, that is the sort of behavior we mean. The best definition of ‘wobble’ I can come up with is this:
Wobbling occurs when the table tennis ball suddenly moves from its natural flight path without any obvious reason.
What Causes the Wobble?

It’s actually easier to explain this in terms of why a table tennis ball doesn’t wobble all the time. A table tennis ball is very light – the current 40mm ball must weigh only 2.7g! That means that any motion of the air around it will tend to affect the flight of the ball.
So Why Doesn’t the Ball Wobble on Every Stroke?

Without trying to get too technical, it’s the spin on the ball that keeps it on a true flight path. A topspin ball will tend to drop towards the table, while a backspin ball tends to rise. A sidespin ball curls in the direction of the spin. Combinations of topspin and sidespin will make the ball go down and to the side, and backspin and sidespin will cause the ball to want to go up and to the side before gravity takes over. (If you can work out how to put topspin and backspin on the ball in a significant way, please let me know!)
The spin makes the ball curve in a predictable manner, and also helps to prevent the ball being affected by the air currents that are moving around the playing area. If you want to know more try the following article written by Jonathan Roberts, explaining the basic physics and maths of table tennis – diagrams included!
But What if there is Very Little Spin on the Ball?

If there is little or no spin on the ball, then the air currents in the playing area have a chance to affect the flight of the ball in a significant way. This is where the ball may begin to wobble – you can’t guarantee that it will. But if you can manage to kill the spin on the ball with your stroke, then if the ball hits an air current of enough size, the air current will be able to push the ball in the direction the air is going. Since gravity is at work at well, an air current going down will be working with gravity and make the ball seem to dip suddenly, while an air current going up will make the ball seem to lift as it works against gravity.
Note that it may not actually lift the ball up – but it will slow down the natural rate of falling and make the ball seem to lift up. Air currents moving sideways will make the ball go to the side, again changing the natural flight path. Two air currents moving in opposite directions will push the ball back and forth.
How Can I Make the Ball Wobble?

Well, technically you can’t make the ball wobble at all – in order for you to able to make it wobble you would have to be able to change the spin on the ball after you hit it, which is impossible, or you would have to have control of the weather and the air in the playing area.
But you can give yourself the best chance of getting the ball to wobble by attempting to kill the spin on the ball and hoping that the natural air currents will do their thing and push the ball around. So the question really becomes ‘How can you kill the spin on the ball?’
Killing the Spin

Naturally enough, some rubbers will be better at killing the spin than others – this is why you very rarely see a normal rubber player wobbling the ball – in order to completely kill the spin he would have to exactly match the spin on the ball from his opponent – too little and the ball will still have some of his opponent’s spin, too much and he will put his own spin on the ball. Only if he gets it exactly right will the ball have the chance to wobble.
Long pimples are naturally better at killing the spin than normal rubber or antispin – this is because when used correctly, the long pimples will bend around the ball and tend to grip it from all directions, so when the ball comes off the pimples they will all be trying to spin the ball, and thus the overall effect will be a float ball. I’ve got a detailed explanation with pictures of how the long pimples can kill the spin here.
Maximizing Your Chances of Wobbling the Ball

In a nutshell, your best method of creating a wobbling ball will be to use a long pimples with pimples that can bend enough to grip all sides of the ball, and then attempt to hit the ball in a relatively flat stroke, or with a stroke going against the spin of the ball a little. This also explains why the stiff pimples with glassy, frictionless tops but grippy sides are better at creating wobbling balls from hard loops then from softer shots – they need a certain amount of force to be able to bend the pimples around all sides of the ball – without enough force the pimples won’t bend and the ball will tend to keep spinning.
So a softer, more flexible long pimples will tend to better at creating wobbling balls from all situations, while the stiffer pimples will tend to only work against shots with a certain amount of force. You could probably try to hit the ball harder yourself to cause the stiff pimples to bend against a soft shot.

[PushSmasher]

I still want to know what disruption is and what is the force that causes disruption.
I think it is all BS.
Prove me wrong but I bet you can't.
TT forums are full of opinions and they are like a$$holes and armpits. They all stink.
Now show me the proof or go home with your tail between your legs.
Where is the equation for the disruptive force?

So... just to be clear, you don’t believe that sometimes a ball hit with long pips will ‘wobble’ in the air?

If so, it would be futile to discuss what might be causing it to happen, if you don’t believe it happens in the first place.

If you do believe that it happens at times, what do YOU think causes it?

[brokenball]

So... just to be clear, you don’t believe that sometimes a ball hit with long pips will ‘wobble’ in the air?

Why sometimes?
Are you defining disruption the same as wobble? At least we are getting closed to a good definition.
If so do LP paddles apply a wobble force? Answer this after thinking about it.

If so, it would be futile to discuss what might be causing it to happen, if you don’t believe it happens in the first place.

I know that balls can wobble.

If you do believe that it happens at times, what do YOU think causes it?[/QUOTE]
I know. There are two possible answers and it could be combination of the two and the simplified answer can be summed up in one word.
Think about the question above because it is key to the first step figuring this out.

[PushSmasher]

Why sometimes?
Are you defining disruption the same as wobble? At least we are getting closed to a good definition.
If so do LP paddles apply a wobble force? Answer this after thinking about it.


I know that balls can wobble.

If you do believe that it happens at times, what do YOU think causes it?
I know. There are two possible answers and it could be combination of the two and the simplified answer can be summed up in one word.
Think about the question above because it is key to the first step figuring this out.

I'm satisfied with the explanation given by Greg Letts, quoted by @Basmundo above.

[brokenball]

I'm satisfied with the explanation given by Greg Letts, quoted by @Basmundo above.

yes, that is a pretty good explanation on the surface. Notice that technically you can't make the ball wobble at all.
My point is that it isn't the paddle. It is the air. There is no disruptive or wobble force.

[LordPippington]

yes, that is a pretty good explanation on the surface. Notice that technically you can't make the ball wobble at all.
My point is that it isn't the paddle. It is the air. There is no disruptive or wobble force.

There is when it comes to usability. The long pips/some anti take spin off the ball or reverse it slightly. That gives a greater chance for the 'random' wobble ball. So when it comes to rubbers having high 'disruption' what it means in reality, is that the rubber provides the best kind of ball to take advantage of the weird wobbly returns... when outside factors align. Same thing happens when you hit the ball with your finger by accident. Those are more often than not missed by the opponent! Should we start flaying corpses and making ZOMBIE PIPS!?

So the disruption effect would mean a pip that does not have too much grip, as to be predictable on most shots. For instance when I block with curl p4, nobody much cares. When I block with d.tecs... they complain it's junk rubber! Why is that? Less friction, less predictable returns. You have to be more watchful and actually pay attention.

[brokenball]

So when it comes to rubbers having high 'disruption' what it means in reality, is that the rubber provides the best kind of ball to take advantage of the weird wobbly returns...

????
You mean to have the best chance generate wobbly balls. However, it is the air that causes balls to wobble.

when outside factors align.

The spin most be low or none.
The speed range must be in the right range.
Slower speeds will result in laminar flow around the ball so will not oscillate.

If one took a video pointing up at a TT ball falling from a high place in calm then it would be easy to see if the ball will oscillate below 8 m/s. 8m/s is terminal velocity of a TT ball.