Which long pips

PushSmasher · Nov 23, 2020

merlin el mago said:
Illegal for use in tournaments as illegal is to boost the inverted rubbers, both can't be detected.

You’re absolutely right, both boosting and altering long pips are illegal and ways someone could cheat to try to get what they perceive as an advantage.

If someone feels that they have to cheat to win, I could care less. I personally feel that there are no short cuts, and the only way to truly get better is to put in the hours. My point was that I don’t think it’s helpful to recommend to someone to do something that is illegal, especially where they may not be aware that what is being suggested is against the rules.

Can it be detected? Yes it most certainly can. Will a local tournament have the equipment to detect it, or even care for that matter? No.

brokenball · Nov 23, 2020

merlin el mago said:
Bend the pips is the only way to control them.

Yes, bending pips adds to the friction and will change the spin on the ball if there is any but isn't the goal of LP 0X players to have pips that are as frictionless as possible. Hitting through the ball without bending the pips keeps the friction low and yes the path of the ball is harder to control. There is no spin a LP 0X can generate that a inverted rubber can't. However, LP 0X can be nearly frictionless and inverted rubber is not.

I didn't see any inverted doing disruption.

What is disruption? What is the force that causes disruption? Or is it a lack of force ( tangential ).
Yes, it is hard for inverted rubbers to return no-spin float balls but it can be done.

merlin el mago · Nov 24, 2020

PushSmasher said:
You’re absolutely right, both boosting and altering long pips are illegal and ways someone could cheat to try to get what they perceive as an advantage.

If someone feels that they have to cheat to win, I could care less. I personally feel that there are no short cuts, and the only way to truly get better is to put in the hours. My point was that I don’t think it’s helpful to recommend to someone to do something that is illegal, especially where they may not be aware that what is being suggested is against the rules.

Can it be detected? Yes it most certainly can. Will a local tournament have the equipment to detect it, or even care for that matter? No.

Pros boost the rubbers & can't be detected. LP UV treated can't be detected.

merlin el mago · Nov 24, 2020

brokenball said:
Yes, bending pips adds to the friction and will change the spin on the ball if there is any but isn't the goal of LP 0X players to have pips that are as frictionless as possible No, some people use LP OX only to chop. Hitting through the ball without bending the pips keeps the friction low and yes the path of the ball is harder to control. There is no spin a LP 0X can generate that a inverted rubber can't Anti?. However, LP 0X can be nearly frictionless and inverted rubber is no. There are Anti frictionless.

What is disruption? What is the force that causes disruption? Or is it a lack of force ( tangential ).
Yes, it is hard for inverted rubbers to return no-spin float balls but it can be done. Yes inverted can return float balls doing the snake but can't attack fast & strong these balls

Read red answer.

PushSmasher · Nov 24, 2020

merlin el mago said:
Pros boost the rubbers & can't be detected. LP UV treated can't be detected.

It doesn’t matter how you alter them, the level of friction of the pips can be tested to determine if they are legal. Below is a link to a simple test.

https://www.sinthesieng.it/en/areas/si-sport/bat-tester/

Having said that, my point is: cheating is cheating, whether you can get caught or not.

If you feel you need to do that to win a match in a tournament, then so be it.

I don’t care if my opponent has boosted his rubber, or altered his pips to make them frictionless, as I don’t see it as an advantage for them. I wish the ITTF would just go back to allowing boosting and frictionless pips. That would put both issues to bed, and we could focus on much more important matters, such as: what can be done to actually grow the sport we love.

Basmundo · Nov 24, 2020

NoFootwork said:
Regarding gluing OX sheets, there are many tutorials/methods on youtube. Its a pain to get a nice smooth attachment and like with anything else practice makes perfect. Using a glue sheet is the easiest way but 2 things to think about:
1. They have a minor thickness and some OX players don't like that feel.
2. Some glue sheet brands are very strong and can be difficult to remove. If your blade doesn't have any varnish/lacquer, they can pull up some wood splinters from your blade when you remove the glue sheet.

A good water based glue that you use for attaching your inverted rubbers can be used to attach an OX LP as well. It's more difficult as an OX LP is so thin and isn't rigid and this makes attaching difficult as the sheet wants to flop all over the place. Take a look at some tutorials first.

I did see somewhere, what appeared to be a good idea, that you could use a glue sheet to stick onto the pimple side of OX rubber to render it more handleable while glueing onto the blade and to keep it perfectly flat.

Basmundo · Nov 24, 2020

How do I identify which long pip rubbers are "low friction?" Most manufacturers don't seem to mention this characteristic.

Der_Echte · Nov 24, 2020

The low friction ones are the ones where you left the bat in the UV cup sanitizer a few hrs by mistake.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

PushSmasher · Nov 24, 2020

Der_Echte said:
The low friction ones are the ones where you left the bat in the UV cup sanitizer a few hrs by mistake.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

I hate when that happens [emoji23][emoji1787][emoji23]

merlin el mago · Nov 24, 2020

PushSmasher said:
I I wish the ITTF would just go back to allowing boosting and frictionless pips. That would put both issues to bed, and we could focus on much more important matters, such as: what can be done to actually grow the sport we love.

Completely agree.

LordPippington · Nov 24, 2020

Basmundo said:
How do I identify which long pip rubbers are "low friction?" Most manufacturers don't seem to mention this characteristic.

You cant really go by product description. Better to use forum posts. Just search for any alternative to d.tecs and you'll be good to go. Tough to tell in videos either unless the quality is high enough to see the reversal.

But pure reversal is not the gold standard. If you want that, get a frictionless anti. The magic of d.tecs is the weird balls it causes - some times heavy reversal, some times deader, some times wobbly knuckle ball. It's harder to change and takes more skill to bring about those spins. You can passive block with it and achieve those effects without trying, but will depend on the incoming spin.

Basmundo · Nov 24, 2020

LordPippington said:
You cant really go by product description. Better to use forum posts. Just search for any alternative to d.tecs and you'll be good to go. Tough to tell in videos either unless the quality is high enough to see the reversal.

But pure reversal is not the gold standard. If you want that, get a frictionless anti. The magic of d.tecs is the weird balls it causes - some times heavy reversal, some times deader, some times wobbly knuckle ball. It's harder to change and takes more skill to bring about those spins. You can passive block with it and achieve those effects without trying, but will depend on the incoming spin.

If you were to use d.tecs with sponge, at what sponge thickness do you think it would lose these effects to such an extent that it would negate them? I was thinking of going for either 0.5 or 0.9mm to assist both gluing and also to give a little more control, but not if it means that these properties were so dumbed down as to be impotent.

Or is anything other than OX inferior?

Basmundo · Nov 24, 2020

As twiddlers are used to adjusting between LP and reverse rubbers on both hands, presumably it is feasible to play some matches with reverse/reverse bats and some with reverse/LP, depending on what you feel is the best tactic against specific opposition?

Probably not ideal but not much different to making the adjustment when twiddling.

PushSmasher · Nov 24, 2020

Basmundo said:
As twiddlers are used to adjusting between LP and reverse rubbers on both hands, presumably it is feasible to play some matches with reverse/reverse bats and some with reverse/LP, depending on what you feel is the best tactic against specific opposition?

Probably not ideal but not much different to making the adjustment when twiddling.

Twiddling is a big part of my game and strategy. One thing that makes it much easier to adjust when using both inverted and long pips in the same rally on the same side (forehand or backhand) is that you don't just randomly twiddle, but it's based on a sequence or combination. For example, I may have decided in advance that if the opponent pushes short, I will twiddle and bump it back. Knowing that his return is now probably going to be topspin as that is what I have given him, I will twiddle back to inverted and am ready to attack. That's just one example. When you practice combinations, you'll get to the point you don't think of racket angle as you are playing a sequence and have done it so many times it comes natural.

What you are suggesting above is two completely different game styles and strategies. Some can do it (play one match inverted/inverted and then immediately after play a match inverted/long pips), but it can't really be compared to twiddling. When you twiddle, it's simply part of 1 game strategy. Don't know if this makes sense...

brokenball · Nov 24, 2020

Basmundo said:
If you were to use d.tecs with sponge, at what sponge thickness do you think it would lose these effects to such an extent that it would negate them? I was thinking of going for either 0.5 or 0.9mm to assist both gluing and also to give a little more control, but not if it means that these properties were so dumbed down as to be impotent.

Or is anything other than OX inferior?

For push blocking, yes.
I was given a sheet of D.tecs with 0.6mm sponge. I didn't like it for push blocking compared to GD Talon 0X.
Deng Yaping played with 755 with 1mm sponge if I remember right. Sheet it with the 755.
It depends on what you want to do.

Not all LPs are equal. Some are softer or harder. They have different uses.

Ditto the need for learning how to twiddle.
I learned by watching TV and twiddling. Eventually I got to the point where I was constantly twiddling the paddle without thinking about it. It you have to think about it you are too late unless playing against lower players that are just trying to get the ball back.
I find that twiddling takes the opponent by surprise when a fast topspin ball comes back instead of a slow backspin ball.

brokenball · Nov 24, 2020

merlin el mago said:
Read red answer.

You seem to be arguing to be arguing.
Yes, some people use 0X to chop. I have said I will when I get pinned down deep in my BH but chopping with 0X doesn't provide much spin or energy absorbtion.
Yes, I know about anti rubbers. I have played with many JP brands and Buffalo and I currently have Megablock mounted on my DR Neubauer Matator. I think I mentioned it above but it appears I must repeat.

I can't do much with the Buffalo or Megablock. Yasaka Anti Power is too mushy when it is 2mm thick.
I like Nittaku Best Anti 1.4 mm for the best compromise but that is just me.

@merlin, you didn't answer my question about what is disruption and what force causes disruption.
Any ball with with "disruption" can be returned.

Basmundo · Nov 24, 2020

PushSmasher said:
Twiddling is a big part of my game and strategy. One thing that makes it much easier to adjust when using both inverted and long pips in the same rally on the same side (forehand or backhand) is that you don't just randomly twiddle, but it's based on a sequence or combination. For example, I may have decided in advance that if the opponent pushes short, I will twiddle and bump it back. Knowing that his return is now probably going to be topspin as that is what I have given him, I will twiddle back to inverted and am ready to attack. That's just one example. When you practice combinations, you'll get to the point you don't think of racket angle as you are playing a sequence and have done it so many times it comes natural.

What you are suggesting above is two completely different game styles and strategies. Some can do it (play one match inverted/inverted and then immediately after play a match inverted/long pips), but it can't really be compared to twiddling. When you twiddle, it's simply part of 1 game strategy. Don't know if this makes sense...

It makes perfect sense. Thank you.

merlin el mago · Nov 25, 2020

brokenball said:
You seem to be arguing to be arguing.
Yes, some people use 0X to chop. I have said I will when I get pinned down deep in my BH but chopping with 0X doesn't provide much spin or energy absorbtion.
Yes, I know about anti rubbers. I have played with many JP brands and Buffalo and I currently have Megablock mounted on my DR Neubauer Matator. I think I mentioned it above but it appears I must repeat.

I can't do much with the Buffalo or Megablock. Yasaka Anti Power is too mushy when it is 2mm thick.
I like Nittaku Best Anti 1.4 mm for the best compromise but that is just me.

@merlin, you didn't answer my question about what is disruption and what force causes disruption.
Any ball with with "disruption" can be returned.

Disruption is a combination of incoming & outcoming ball. Yes of course any ball with disruption can be returned but it's very difficult do a strong top spin or drive / smash due to the fact the ball trajectory isn't straight, tha ball goes stumbling as snake.....

brokenball · Nov 25, 2020

merlin el mago said:
Disruption is a combination of incoming & outcoming ball.

That doesn't explain disruption. What does a disruptive ball do that is disruptive? What "disruptive" force could make a ball disruptive?

Yes of course any ball with disruption can be returned but it's very difficult do a strong top spin or drive / smash due to the fact the ball trajectory isn't straight, tha ball goes stumbling as snake.....

What force makes a ball stumble like a snake? I haven't heard of a "snake" force. I have heard of a snake stroke like Adam Bobrow uses but that is just a spin and it is done with inverted rubbers. After the ball leaves the paddle there is only wind resistance and the friction that occurs when the ball hits the table.
TT balls do not have seams like base balls that will cause non-uniform flow over the ball.

PushSmasher · Nov 25, 2020

brokenball said:
That doesn't explain disruption. What does a disruptive ball do that is disruptive? What "disruptive" force could make a ball disruptive?

What force makes a ball stumble like a snake? I haven't heard of a "snake" force. I have heard of a snake stroke like Adam Bobrow uses but that is just a spin and it is done with inverted rubbers. After the ball leaves the paddle there is only wind resistance and the friction that occurs when the ball hits the table.
TT balls do not have seams like base balls that will cause non-uniform flow over the ball.

Before reposting an article I found to have a really good description of why some balls hit with long pips wobble (disruption) in mid flight, I just want to confirm @brokenball if you are saying that you do not believe this occurs. Or is it just the term disruption that you object to? Or do you believe that some balls will wobble in the air, but you want to share your opinion as to why this occurs? Thanks.

Which long pips

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