16 year old Fan Zhengdong vs 16 year old Harimoto, who's better

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
May 2019
27
8
35
Fan zhengdong started international competition from 15 and quickly moved up the rank, and Harimoto obviously started much earlier. Who do you think it is the better or more complete player at age of 16?

I think Harimoto at this point is slightly better than FZD at 16, but it's not by too much.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Mar 2019
550
499
1,093
Harimoto had won significantly more meaningful titles than FZD had in 2013. Who the better player was is impossible to say for sure, but factor in that Fan may be ~2 years older in reality than his listed age and the edge at 16 years old has to go to TH. (edit: apparently he is one of the clean ones). Either way, titles go to Harimoto by a large margin.

Where they end up when their careers are over, now that is a good discussion. I believe Fan has the best technical game maybe ever seen, and in terms of how lethal his shots are he may be the best of all time in that department. If he can put some other things together he certainly has GOAT potential. Harimoto has a lot of X-factors but has some holes in his game on the technical side still, which are still fixable.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
It's difficult to say at all. Both put out good loosing efforts against the best (fzd with a loss to ML and ZJK but a win over a unmotivated ZJK) and dominating Dimitri, matsudira and samsonov. I would prefer to have FZD for my national team because he was more dominant in most of his wins. But it think head to head it's harder because Tomo quite likes playing power loopers.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Mar 2019
550
499
1,093
It's difficult to say at all. Both put out good loosing efforts against the best (fzd with a loss to ML and ZJK but a win over a unmotivated ZJK) and dominating Dimitri, matsudira and samsonov. I would prefer to have FZD for my national team because he was more dominant in most of his wins. But it think head to head it's harder because Tomo quite likes playing power loopers.

I agree with what you are saying but it is interesting to note that FZD and Dima are 2-2 head to head since then, and dominating Matsudaira and Samsonov in one-off matches (it was 4-2 with Vladi, and they only played once) do not indicate too much.

Harimoto won the titles and beat the Chinese top dogs at a level nobody has done in recent memory. But I would not be surprised at all to see FZD have the more illustrious career when it's said and done.
 
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Well-Known Member
Jan 2018
7,227
9,317
18,297
FZD's age is real. There's a clip where he was training in Guangzhou and the coach said he was age 10. His family didn't want him to become table tennis player and his cadet results were not shiny, indirect proofs he was getting his ass handed by his "peers".

So much fun looking back on the old threads now.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Mar 2019
550
499
1,093
FZD's age is real. There's a clip where he was training in Guangzhou and the coach said he was age 10. His family didn't want him to become table tennis player and his cadet results were not shiny, indirect proofs he was getting his ass handed by his "peers".

So much fun looking back on the old threads now.

Noted.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2019
1,854
851
3,212
Read 4 reviews
At age of 16 Harimoto had 5 World Tour Titles plus 1 World Tour Grand Final Title.

At age of 16 FZD had just 2 World Tour Titles.

So the answer of the OP question is more than obvious.

It looks really weird when someone uses both "just" and "world titles" in a single sentence.

Aside from that FZD might have had harder time breaking to even start in any event.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jun 2019
198
44
468
At age of 16 Harimoto had 5 World Tour Titles plus 1 World Tour Grand Final Title.

At age of 16 FZD had just 2 World Tour Titles.

So the answer of the OP question is more than obvious.

Harimoto had more international experience and highlevel wins compared to FZD, but FZD wasn't presented the same opportunities.

Harimoto was already a star player for Japan at 16. FZD didn't have as much opportunity because CNT already had so many high level players. Titles alone is not fair since Harimoto had more opportunity than FZD, but who Harimoto beat in those titles is extraordinary.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
To be honest it's almost moot. They both won world titles, Hari of course more and at a younger age but this is about 16 v 16 not career by 16.
Rewatch the matches of FZD in '13 it was less clinical and seems more nervous than harimoto but without the obvious forehand weakness. On the negative he seems almost awkward at the level presented due to lack of experience.
They're basically skillwise identical to me. The other thing to remember is while Hari is now the youngest tour winner so was FZD.
 
It looks really weird when someone uses both "just" and "world titles" in a single sentence.

Aside from that FZD might have had harder time breaking to even start in any event.


The OP question is clear enough.

The answer is clear enough.

Blah-blah speculations are not clear enough.
 
Harimoto had more international experience and highlevel wins compared to FZD, but FZD wasn't presented the same opportunities.

Harimoto was already a star player for Japan at 16. FZD didn't have as much opportunity because CNT already had so many high level players. Titles alone is not fair since Harimoto had more opportunity than FZD, but who Harimoto beat in those titles is extraordinary.

Here we have a joke:

"IF my grandmother have had balls, grandfather she've had been."
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Apr 2012
140
73
231
Well, we didn't see much of Fan Zhendong as a 16-year-old, but I don't think he lost to any non-Chinese players at all (!) as a 16-year old. Towards the end of 2013, FZD was on a tear, dominating anyone he played (Dima, Zhou Yu, Xu Xin).
(Funny enough, we also didn't see as much of Harimoto as a 16-year-old as we might have, because of COVID)
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Apr 2012
140
73
231
At age of 16 Harimoto had 5 World Tour Titles plus 1 World Tour Grand Final Title.

At age of 16 FZD had just 2 World Tour Titles.

So the answer of the OP question is more than obvious.

The question is who is better, not who has more titles. I think you probably understand why I draw this distinction, but just to clarify:
Non-Chinese top players are basically able to play every tournament they want to play, big or small.
Chinese top players (and even moreso players under them) don't have this luxury, for reasons we all know.

Thus the title count of any Chinese player is massively deflated compared to non-Chinese contemporaries.
(Not to mention that many titles won by non-Chinese players are tournaments that had no Chinese players in the field. E.g., compare the player fields in Ma Long's vs Samsonov's ITTF tour titles)

As a result, many non-Chinese players will have more titles than objectively superior Chinese players.
Imagine if Chinese players got to play 20 World Cups in a row like Timo Boll, etc.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
May 2019
27
8
35
The question is who is better, not who has more titles. I think you probably understand why I draw this distinction, but just to clarify:
Non-Chinese top players are basically able to play every tournament they want to play, big or small.
Chinese top players (and even moreso players under them) don't have this luxury, for reasons we all know.

Thus the title count of any Chinese player is massively deflated compared to non-Chinese contemporaries.
(Not to mention that many titles won by non-Chinese players are tournaments that had no Chinese players in the field. E.g., compare the player fields in Ma Long's vs Samsonov's ITTF tour titles)

As a result, many non-Chinese players will have more titles than objectively superior Chinese players.
Imagine if Chinese players got to play 20 World Cups in a row like Timo Boll, etc.

Definitely true, HT is no doubt very talented. However, if Harimoto is on CNT today, he would be ranked below ML and FZD, and probably XX as well, so basically no shot of playing World Cup and Olympics Single.

ps. I am not saying FZD is more talented, but we can't simply compare titles at the young age to determine who's a better player.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Mar 2019
550
499
1,093
The question is who is better, not who has more titles. I think you probably understand why I draw this distinction, but just to clarify:
Non-Chinese top players are basically able to play every tournament they want to play, big or small.
Chinese top players (and even moreso players under them) don't have this luxury, for reasons we all know.

Thus the title count of any Chinese player is massively deflated compared to non-Chinese contemporaries.
(Not to mention that many titles won by non-Chinese players are tournaments that had no Chinese players in the field. E.g., compare the player fields in Ma Long's vs Samsonov's ITTF tour titles)

As a result, many non-Chinese players will have more titles than objectively superior Chinese players.
Imagine if Chinese players got to play 20 World Cups in a row like Timo Boll, etc.

Most of us are aware of this point, but when discussing an impossible-to-answer question, you have to give the edge to the person who actually went out and did the thing, rather than the person who might have. Obviously it is impossible as well to compare their true levels, as it is faulty to compare their results against the same opponents, or read into single match results. Now that both players are well established with bright futures ahead, it is more productive to discuss where they will end up rather than where they were at some arbitrary time previously.
 
The question is who is better, not who has more titles. I think you probably understand why I draw this distinction, but just to clarify:
Non-Chinese top players are basically able to play every tournament they want to play, big or small.
Chinese top players (and even moreso players under them) don't have this luxury, for reasons we all know.

Thus the title count of any Chinese player is massively deflated compared to non-Chinese contemporaries.
(Not to mention that many titles won by non-Chinese players are tournaments that had no Chinese players in the field. E.g., compare the player fields in Ma Long's vs Samsonov's ITTF tour titles)

As a result, many non-Chinese players will have more titles than objectively superior Chinese players.
Imagine if Chinese players got to play 20 World Cups in a row like Timo Boll, etc.


Well, if we don't look on the titles and matches, the conclusions would be very subjective, so anyone would say anything.

You mentioned that many titles won by non-Chinese players are tournaments that had no Chinese players in the field.
Well, then just for the record:
Till the age of 16 Harimoto won against 14 chinese players, including Ma Long.
Till the age of 16 FZD won against 10 chinese players and no Ma Long in the list.
Surplus - Harimoto won against FZD too.

These are the objective figures.
Subjective attitude - as you like.
 
Fan zhengdong started international competition from 15 and quickly moved up the rank, and Harimoto obviously started much earlier. Who do you think it is the better or more complete player at age of 16?

I think Harimoto at this point is slightly better than FZD at 16, but it's not by too much.

I would say TH is the better player (compared to 16yo FZD, rather than current day FZD), but FZD was the more complete player even then.

TH has always been, in the context of international competition, and even now remains, an unorthodox player. He has advantages far in excess of most of not all other players (mostly the short and close to table game), but also gaping weaknesses in his game.

For all the extra opportunities he may have had, TH has world titles under his belt, and still goes deep into interntional competition, and keeps a stable high ranking. It's not where a 16yo TT player is expected to be able to be at that age even given ample opportunities. Surely when it comes to 'better' it's hard to look past how much you win. Whatever you can say of his game, it is effective, it lets him win.

FZD on the other hand, in 2013, didn't really have many impressive feats under his belt (on a adult TT level). He has however always been an incredibly complete player. There is very little he does not do at an elite level. Even in 2013 he was a very technically sound, solid, physically fit player, beating pretty much all non-chinese opponents with the sheer... completeness of his game.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
New Member
Jan 2020
3
2
5
I'd say the main tournament that showed 2013 FZD's prowess was the Chinese National Games where he ended up beating both Zhang Jike and Xu Xin and took Ma Long to a seventh setter whilst been one of the most valuable players of Bayi when they won the teams competition. Keep in mind that this was also in the celluloid ball era where the older players have more of an advantage because they had both the experience and the physicality to impart more power into their shots. Whether Harimoto could have done the same thing if he was in FZD's shoes is an entire hypothetical and a half, but it is fair to say that the change from celluloid to plastic benefited Harimoto a ton since even the slight reduction of the spin allowed him to just simply hit through every ball nearly no matter how much power was on it and as a result, he became the player who basically set the model to the playstyle that we see nowadays, hence why he had such an amazing breakthrough year in 2018 and find the success that he has earned. In the end, I personally feel it is close to impossible to say who was better at that age. But I think it is safe to say that if we had a hypothetical where we were able to get 16 year old FZD to play against 16 year old Harimoto, FZD would win if the match was played with a celluloid ball, but if we use the current plastic balls, Harimoto would win.
 
Top