Spinniest but fastest all-wood blade that you've tried.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 27, 2020

If framed differently, I think there is usefulness to the side discussion if properly tied back to the original subject of the thread in a useful way.

Different people naturally gravitate towards different kinds of contact. You could have two players of the same level, one who will get more spin from a Stiga Offensive Classic or a Butterfly Primorac Off- (both Limba top plies [softer]) and another player the same level who may get more spin from an Avalox P-500 or a DHS Hurricane King (both Koto top plies [harder]). And the way their strokes developed, one player will contact the ball in a way that makes ball quality better with the softer blade, and the other will contact the ball in a way that makes ball quality better with the harder blade.

I purposely chose 4 different blades with similar thickness and flex but different top plies.

Ply Construction for each blade is:

1) Offensive Classic: Limba-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Limba
2) Primorac Off-: Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba
3) P-500: Koto-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Koto
4) Hurricane King: Koto-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Koto

HKing and P500 are same ply construction but don't feel the same. They are also very similar in ply construction to the Offensive Classic except the top ply. In fact, if you had an older OC (maybe from back in the 1990s) it might have a Koto top ply too because there was a point where Stiga used a Koto top ply for the blade.

Anyway. So the point is, no two players are exactly the same. And what might be the spinniest blade for one player might not be for another player.

However, I would say, that as a general principle, for someone developing the ability to spin the ball, it is often easier to learn the skill, with a blade that is a little softer and more forgiving.

So, the question of "What is the Spinniest but Fastest all Wood Blade", the question itself, is flawed because it appears to assume that there will be one answer for everybody but different people will have different experiences because we all contact the ball slightly differently.

yogi_bear · Nov 27, 2020

nymose said:
And you can not base the spin on the rubbers alone. What's your point?

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nymose said:
I didn't mean to be disrespectful, hence the smiley. Of course I know that the spin is not only Coming from the blade that it's mostly from the rubbers. What I don't get is why you're writing it.

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passifid said:
You ok yogi? If a higher level of skill is needed then we can just say anything.
Blade and rubber do not make the power your arm does. You can hit a sufficiently fast shot with a clipper and mark v. Does this invalidate Bryce high-speed and photinio bieng faster ?
Nope
Are you wrong?
Nope
Does it defeat the point of the forum discussion?
Yep

Actually you miss the context of my post. It does not defeat the point of discussion of the post. I am simply disagreeing on hispost because some of the elements of his point is somewhat not clear and might misinform other people. He clarified his post further and i do not have any probls with it after.

nymose · Nov 27, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
If framed differently, I think there is usefulness to the side discussion if properly tied back to the original subject of the thread in a useful way.

Different people naturally gravitate towards different kinds of contact. You could have two players of the same level, one who will get more spin from a Stiga Offensive Classic or a Butterfly Primorac Off- (both Limba top plies [softer]) and another player the same level who may get more spin from an Avalox P-500 or a DHS Hurricane King (both Koto top plies [harder]). And the way their strokes developed, one player will contact the ball in a way that makes ball quality better with the softer blade, and the other will contact the ball in a way that makes ball quality better with the harder blade.

I purposely chose 4 different blades with similar thickness and flex but different top plies.

Ply Construction for each blade is:

1) Offensive Classic: Limba-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Limba
2) Primorac Off-: Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba
3) P-500: Koto-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Koto
4) Hurricane King: Koto-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Koto

HKing and P500 are same ply construction but don't feel the same. They are also very similar in ply construction to the Offensive Classic except the top ply. In fact, if you had an older OC (maybe from back in the 1990s) it might have a Koto top ply too because there was a point where Stiga used a Koto top ply for the blade.

Anyway. So the point is, no two players are exactly the same. And what might be the spinniest blade for one player might not be for another player.

However, I would say, that as a general principle, for someone developing the ability to spin the ball, it is often easier to learn the skill, with a blade that is a little softer and more forgiving.

So, the question of "What is the Spinniest but Fastest all Wood Blade", the question itself, is flawed because it appears to assume that there will be one answer for everybody but different people will have different experiences because we all contact the ball slightly differently.

Hmm, interesting. I genuinely thought that it would be the the same for everybody. That limba outer would help generate spin easier than koto outer for everybody. But that more skilled players don't necessarily needs that extra dwell, depending on their style of course. Like a loose-some-win-some.

It's funny, because usually I'm the guy who advocates about everyone being different and having different needs, views etc.

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nymose · Nov 27, 2020

Just edited the description of the thread to be more specific. Sorry for the confusion [emoji28]

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UpSideDownCarl · Nov 27, 2020

nymose said:
Hmm, interesting. I genuinely thought that it would be the the same for everybody. That limba outer would help generate spin easier than koto outer for everybody. But that more skilled players don't necessarily needs that extra dwell, depending on their style of course. Like a loose-some-win-some.

It's funny, because usually I'm the guy who advocates about everyone being different and having different needs, views etc.

The softer wood gives more room for error. The harder wood imparts more force into the ball.

Often, a lower level player will not make the kind of contact that will cause the harder top ply to generate more spin. However, there are some who just tend towards the kind of contact that would cause a harder top ply to shine.

This issue of which kind of blade will help you generate more spin has everything to do with the kinds of contact you make on your shots. Since everyone can develop the ability to contact the ball with different kinds of contact, it is something that can be learned. However, some players just tend to have the kind of contact that works better with softer woods and some have the kind of contact that works better with harder woods.

An easy way to think about this: not everybody loves Hinoki. There are some people who try a Hinoki blade, fall in love and never want to use anything else. Then there are other players who just don't like Hinoki. This does not have to do with high or low level. It has to do with the kind of contact you tend to make on your shots.

So, Ryu Seung Min used a Hinoki blade. Have a look at his FH. Ma Long used a TB ALC and then switched to a series of blades before he settled on the W968 (special version of HL5). Note, ML's shots got more spinny with the HL5. But they still were never as spinny as ZJK's who used a Viscaria.

It is interesting to note, ML's shots are faster than ZJK's with a blade that is softer. ZJK's shots are spinnier with a blade that is harder. Ryu Seung Min's shots may be faster and spinnier with a blade that is all wood.

But I think, what I said about RSM has as much to do with his FH technique and that he held his racket in a way that did not allow him to have a more versatile BH. Rather than it being simply the blade.

So, in the end, what you want is to find something that really works for you.

I know, the blade I use is not super fast and it is not super slow. It is all wood, 5 ply, and it has Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba ply construction. For me that works really well. I can spin the hell out of the ball with my TB ZLF. I can spin the hell out of the ball with my V'King (Koto top ply). But the feeling of my V+ just makes me much happier.

I am not sure any of us need the fastest or the spinniest blade (or rubbers). But if you have a setup that helps you really play solidly, confidently, take your shots fully, and makes you happy as a result of how it feels, that would be ideal. And for everyone, that is going to be a different setup.

But once you find a setup that makes you happy enough, I would stick with it. The Holy Grail may be out there. But searching for it may also drive you crazy. Have a look at most of MOG's threads if you would like examples.

passifid · Nov 27, 2020

He is just asking what's the fastest and spinniest all wood you've personally used.

This isn't an advice thread or a realistic use thread.

Shake hands
Nittaku Miyabi
Shame I hated the thickness!

Penhold
Xiom Katana 10.5 Jpen. Super fast, super spinny

Der_Echte · Nov 27, 2020

nymose said:
That sounds insanely heavy! Mine at 91g was in the beginning of Off-.

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I think the Allround Evolution I procured was around 84 or 86 grams. It's all Carl's fault, he was talking so much about the Allround Evolution so much and let me hit with one on a visit... I just had to have him hit with one modded to see what I meant.

nymose · Nov 27, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
The softer wood gives more room for error. The harder wood imparts more force into the ball.

Often, a lower level player will not make the kind of contact that will cause the harder top ply to generate more spin. However, there are some who just tend towards the kind of contact that would cause a harder top ply to shine.

This issue of which kind of blade will help you generate more spin has everything to do with the kinds of contact you make on your shots. Since everyone can develop the ability to contact the ball with different kinds of contact, it is something that can be learned. However, some players just tend to have the kind of contact that works better with softer woods and some have the kind of contact that works better with harder woods.

An easy way to think about this: not everybody loves Hinoki. There are some people who try a Hinoki blade, fall in love and never want to use anything else. Then there are other players who just don't like Hinoki. This does not have to do with high or low level. It has to do with the kind of contact you tend to make on your shots.

So, Ryu Seung Min used a Hinoki blade. Have a look at his FH. Ma Long used a TB ALC and then switched to a series of blades before he settled on the W968 (special version of HL5). Note, ML's shots got more spinny with the HL5. But they still were never as spinny as ZJK's who used a Viscaria.

It is interesting to note, ML's shots are faster than ZJK's with a blade that is softer. ZJK's shots are spinnier with a blade that is harder. Ryu Seung Min's shots may be faster and spinnier with a blade that is all wood. But I think, what I said about RSM has as much to do with his FH technique and that he held his racket in a way that did not allow him to have a more versatile BH. Rather than it being simply the blade.

So, in the end, what you want is to find something that really works for you.

I know, the blade I use is not super fast and it is not super slow. It is all wood, 5 ply, and it has Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba ply construction. For me that works really well. I can spin the hell out of the ball with my TB ZLF. I can spin the hell out of the ball with my V'King (Koto top ply). But the feeling of my V+ just makes me much happier.

I am not sure any of us need the fastest or the spinniest blade (or rubbers). But if you have a setup that helps you really play solidly, confidently, take your shots fully, and makes you happy as a result of how it feels, that would be ideal. And for everyone, that is going to be a different setup.

But once you find a setup that makes you happy enough, I would stick with it. The Holy Grail may be out there. But searching for it may also drive you crazy. Have a look at most of MOG's threads if you would like examples.

Yeah, technique will always be the key. Some pros plays with koto outer blades and still produces huge amounts of spin. Viscaria is Known for being a spin oriented blade. Never tried one, so my guess was that the inner plies would add extra spin on high impact shots, if you have good enough technique.

Yeah my current setup, b777 with FX-S on both sides is the setup that works Best for me overall

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nymose · Nov 27, 2020

Der_Echte said:
I think the Allround Evolution I procured was around 84 or 86 grams. It's all Carl's fault, he was talking so much about the Allround Evolution so much and let me hit with one on a visit... I just had to have him hit with one modded to see what I meant.

Aah okay. Is that the toothpick mod you're talking about?

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UpSideDownCarl · Nov 27, 2020

nymose said:
Hmm, interesting. I genuinely thought that it would be the the same for everybody. That limba outer would help generate spin easier than koto outer for everybody. But that more skilled players don't necessarily needs that extra dwell, depending on their style of course. Like a loose-some-win-some.

It's funny, because usually I'm the guy who advocates about everyone being different and having different needs, views etc.

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passifid said:
He is just asking what's the fastest and spinniest all wood you've personally used.

This isn't an advice thread or a realistic use thread.

Shake hands
Nittaku Miyabi
Shame I hated the thickness!

Penhold
Xiom Katana 10.5 Jpen. Super fast, super spinny

My guess is, the content I presented was useful in helping him refine that idea.

So, no harm in extra content and Yogi's statement and the response to it, lead me down that path.

But part of my point is that, even regardless of level, different ways of contacting the ball produce different results with different pieces of equipment.

So it is worth understanding. I doubt there are many people who get more spin than Timo Boll or ZJK and yet they choose to use blades with hard top plies. It is worth examining why.

And this aspect of a player having a particular feel with different kinds of wood is not just at high levels. There are low level players who will get more out of kind of one blade than another and this is not just a linear progression.

Yasaka Sweden Extra has a relatively hard top ply compared to a Primorac Off- but it is a great blade for beginners and it can produce amazing spin.

So, I just used 3 pros to illustrate an example of three players we all could watch on YouTube who are all amazing who use different kinds of wood and have different quality shots in a range from more spin to more speed. And how it is interesting that the fastest shots come from the guy using all wood and the spinniest shots come from the guy using the hardest top ply.

It is simply good example of how, even at very similar levels, players get different results and choose different kinds of wood.

And now that the theme has changed to, being about the personal experience of the respondent, I think that is a good result for my comments.

Airoc · Nov 27, 2020

All other rightfully mentioned aspects aside, purely in the sense of the question asked: Gauzy SL.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 27, 2020

Der_Echte said:
You should be asking Carl about the 126 gram Allround Evolution I let him test... that was the the first blade I posted the BEAST MOD about. Prolly changed it from All+ to OFF- with improved feel and stability.

nymose said:
That sounds insanely heavy! Mine at 91g was in the beginning of Off-.

Der's Allround Evolution was probably in the offensive range after his modification. And to be fair, it weighed 126 grams but did not feel anywhere near that heavy since Der added approximately 30 grams of weight to the handle. So, when you swung, that racket felt about 85-88 grams in weight.

And that extra inertia definitely made it so you could get a lot of spin on the ball since you could really whip the racket and get really nice head speed on contact.

nymose · Nov 27, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
My guess is, the content I presented was useful in helping him refine that idea. So, no harm in extra content and Yogi's statement and the response to it, lead me down that path.

But part of my point is that, even regardless of level, different ways of contacting the ball produce different results with different pieces of equipment.

So it is worth understanding. I doubt there are many people who get more spin than Timo Boll or ZJK and yet they choose to use blades with hard top plies. It is worth examining why.

And this aspect of a player having a particular feel with different kinds of wood is not just at high levels. There are low level players who will get more out of kind of one blade than another and this is not just a linear progression.

Yasaka Sweden Extra has a relatively hard top ply compared to a Primorac Off- but it is a great blade for beginners and it can produce amazing spin.

So, I just used 3 pros to illustrate an example of three players we all could watch on YouTube who are all amazing who use different kinds of wood and have different quality shots in a range from more spin to more speed. And how it is interesting that the fastest shots come from the guy using all wood and the spinniest shots come from the guy using the hardest top ply.

It is simply good example of how, even at very similar levels, players get different results and choose different kinds of wood.

And now that the theme has changed to, being about the personal experience of the respondent, I think that is a good result for my comments.

I don't mind the path the thread took. Because it's quite valid and interesting to discuss imo. It was just that from my own experience and other users I've read about here and there, it seemed to me that there usually are a genral "rule". Like choose koto outer if you want a more direct touch, or choose limba if you want a more dwelly touch for instance.
Another thing I'm thinking regarding pros like Timo Boll, FZD, Dima etc, is that because their technique is already so good for creating spin, they probably don't need a more dwelly blade surface. And for people who have shorter and more direct strokes probably feel like they need a blade with a more dwelly surface. So to me it makes perfect sense

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UpSideDownCarl · Nov 27, 2020

It is more. This is simple. This is science. This is something BrokenBall would be totally qualified to talk about.

A harder surface will transfer more power into the ball. How you choose to use that power will determine how you want to contact the ball.

A softer surface will dampen and cause less power to be transferred into the ball.

This is also why, the top pros are trending towards using harder rubbers. If you think about it, it will make sense.

If the harder surface transfers more power into the ball, and you contact the ball in a way to maximize that as rotational force applied to the ball (spin), if the contact is just so, the harder top ply should actually create more spin because it is capable of transferring more force into the ball.

However, this leaves less room for error. Which is why harder top plies and harder rubbers are both often considered to be equipment for higher level players where the contact is going to be more precise and there will be less error in the precision of the higher level player.

This also means, what you can say is the softer wood, just like the softer rubbers, give you more room for error and so, if your contact quality is not as pristine and not as consistent, then, IN GENERAL, it will be easier to create better quality (read more spin OR speed) more consistently [that last word is the important one, more spin more consistently].

But on those somewhat random times that your contact is perfect and you transfer a "maximum" amount of force into the ball, the harder blade (and rubber) will impart more force into the ball whether you are trying to spin or drive the ball.

And hence, the popularity of the Viscaria, TB ALC and a host of other blades that kind of maximize this quality.

Sorry for invoking BrokenBall. But he really is an expert on this. And the stuff he tries to explain about dwell time and thinner vs thicker sponge, and force transferred into the ball, and the equations for this subject are actually worth understanding even if they most likely will not really help your level of play.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 27, 2020

I decided to add more:

Flex will also dampen, you will not get rebound to add spin or speed, the benefit of flex is in the dampening effect. BrokenBall actually has videos which show pretty well that the rebound of the flex is way too slow for the rebound to propel the ball; even if it could, the rebound would add force in the wrong direction to actually propel the ball at an angle that would add spin or speed. With a closed racket, if flex-rebound added force to the ball it would push the ball downward if your racket was closed over the top of the ball.

So, flex, like softness, gives you more room for error. But does not actually add force to the ball.

IB66 · Nov 27, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
It is more. This is simple. This is science. This is something BrokenBall would be totally qualified to talk about.

A harder surface will transfer more power into the ball. How you choose to use that power will determine how you want to contact the ball.

A softer surface will dampen and cause less power to be transferred into the ball.

This is also why, the top pros are trending towards using harder rubbers. If you think about it, it will make sense.

If the harder surface transfers more power into the ball, and you contact the ball in a way to maximize that as rotational force applied to the ball (spin), if the contact is just so, the harder top ply should actually create more spin because it is capable of transferring more force into the ball.

However, this leaves less room for error. Which is why harder top plies and harder rubbers are both often considered to be equipment for higher level players where the contact is going to be more precise and there will be less error in the precision of the higher level player.

This also means, what you can say is the softer wood, just like the softer rubbers, give you more room for error and so, if your contact quality is not as pristine and not as consistent, then, IN GENERAL, it will be easier to create better quality (read more spin OR speed) more consistently [that last word is the important one, more spin more consistently].

But on those somewhat random times that your contact is perfect and you transfer a "maximum" amount of force into the ball, the harder blade (and rubber) will impart more force into the ball whether you are trying to spin or drive the ball.

And hence, the popularity of the Viscaria, TB ALC and a host of other blades that kind of maximize this quality.

Sorry for invoking BrokenBall. But he really is an expert on this. And the stuff he tries to explain about dwell time and thinner vs thicker sponge, and force transferred into the ball, and the equations for this subject are actually worth understanding even if they most likely will not really help your level of play.

There is a definite trend for harder rubbers, usually in the form of harder sponges, especially for ESN rubbers & BTY to a certain extent.
This seems to be accompanied by thinner top sheets, ‘max’ sponge thickness is therefore slightly greater.

So there’s generally a higher % of hardness, as it were, in a sheet of rubber!!!

top sheets, are they softer, or just feel softer because they are thinner?

R53 and R48 are an excellent example for the ease of use, both ‘feel’ softer than you would maybe expect, especially for the R53. But R53 is way less forgiving when you are not producing high quality strokes, the softer R48 sponge helps with consistency even if your play level is less consistent!!

IB66 · Nov 27, 2020

Carl, Would you say Blade hardness / softness is then sort of similar to rubber hardness / softness in that soft could be seen a more forgiving?

IB66 · Nov 27, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
I decided to add more:

Flex will also dampen, you will not get rebound to add spin or speed, the benefit of flex is in the dampening effect. BrokenBall actually has videos which show pretty well that the rebound of the flex is way too slow for the rebound to propel the ball; even if it could, the rebound would add force in the wrong direction to actually propel the ball at an angle that would add spin or speed. With a closed racket, if flex-rebound added force to the ball it would push the ball downward if your racket was closed over the top of the ball.

So, flex, like softness, gives you more room for error. But does not actually add force to the ball.

I’ve seen a few golf club reviews, where they have talked about the flex of golf club shafts, Pro fitters used to say the flex of the shaft should be fitted to swing speed.
But this maybe changing, during testing, the distance gained for a player with a swing of ‘x’ speed using different flex shafts wasn’t spread out as much as they thought it would be.
The ‘feel’ was more important to the player!!

nymose · Nov 27, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
I decided to add more:

Flex will also dampen, you will not get rebound to add spin or speed, the benefit of flex is in the dampening effect. BrokenBall actually has videos which show pretty well that the rebound of the flex is way too slow for the rebound to propel the ball; even if it could, the rebound would add force in the wrong direction to actually propel the ball at an angle that would add spin or speed. With a closed racket, if flex-rebound added force to the ball it would push the ball downward if your racket was closed over the top of the ball.

So, flex, like softness, gives you more room for error. But does not actually add force to the ball.

On low impact balls for sure. But on loops, the flex will give more energy from the head on contact like a slingshot, Because of the whipping action given with the underarm and wrist. And the throw will be higher, Because the ball will be thrown upwards. The ball stays with the racket longer Before it gets thrown off and up Into the air. The more weight the head has, the more energy will be transfered. But Because the ball stays longer before flying off, there will be slightly more time for the opponent to react, depending on the user of the flexy blade of course.
With smashes the energy transfer from the head would be delayed a bit and therefore wasted a bit as well, due to the slight upward bend to the head, that will be there almost through the whole movement Before hitting the ball. That's why flexy blades tends to act more unstable on smashes for most people. Because the ball stays longer on the racket. Upwards energy in the opposite direction of the rackets way in this case. Unless your smashing technique (speed, timing, placement and movement of the body) is superb. Enough speed in your movement could add up for the loss of energy transfer from the head itself. Of course it all always depends on the user.
This is definetly my experience. And it also seems like simple logic to me that this is how it works for a flexy blade

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UpSideDownCarl · Nov 27, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
This also means, what you can say is the softer wood, just like the softer rubbers, give you more room for error and so, if your contact quality is not as pristine and not as consistent, then, IN GENERAL, it will be easier to create better quality (read more spin OR speed) more consistently [that last word is the important one, more spin more consistently].

IB66 said:
Carl, Would you say Blade hardness / softness is then sort of similar to rubber hardness / softness in that soft could be seen a more forgiving?

I did cover that. In general, that is often the case.

Again, there are examples of people who are lower level who make contact that is just well fit to harder top plies. But, as a general statement, a softer blade, and a blade with more flex, would both allow some extra room for contact to be a little less precise while still being good enough.

It would not mask sub-par contact quality. But it would make it so most would have a little more room for quality contact.

Spinniest but fastest all-wood blade that you've tried.

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