Spinniest but fastest all-wood blade that you've tried.

IB66 · Nov 27, 2020

The flex Carl is talking about is flex caused by impact of the ball onto the bat, when the bat is stationary, and it can’t rebound back fast enough to keep up with the ball as it bounces off the bat.
You’re talking about flex caused by the forward acceleration of the stroke , which I feel would be there, but in the scale of things, not a huge factor.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 27, 2020

nymose said:
On low impact balls for sure. But on loops, the flex will give more energy from the head on contact like a slingshot, Because of the whipping action given with the underarm and wrist. And the throw will be higher, Because the ball will be thrown upwards. The ball stays with the racket longer Before it gets thrown off and up Into the air. The more weight the head has, the more energy will be transfered. But Because the ball stays longer before flying off, there will be slightly more time for the opponent to react, depending on the user of the flexy blade of course.
With smashes the energy transfer from the head would be delayed a bit and therefore wasted a bit as well, due to the slight upward bend to the head, that will be there almost through the whole movement Before hitting the ball. That's why flexy blades tends to act more unstable on smashes for most people. Because the ball stays longer on the racket. Upwards energy in the opposite direction of the rackets way in this case. Unless your smashing technique (speed, timing, placement and movement of the body) is superb. Enough speed in your movement could add up for the loss of energy transfer from the head itself. Of course it all always depends on the user.
This is definetly my experience. And it also seems like simple logic to me that this is how it works for a flexy blade

I think what you are saying about smashes is fine.

What you are saying about loops and flex, I have heard stuff like this often. But I don't believe it can be correct. The rebound of the flex, if the rebound helped, would propel the ball down because the blade, on a loop is facing mostly down (closed). The actual dwell time is in microseconds. The differences do matter. They do mean something. But if it takes 1 second for a stroke, the racket covers 4 feet in the stroke and the ball is on the blade for a fraction of an inch of distance for a long dwell time, that fraction of an inch when the racket is moving fastest will still be in microseconds even if the dwell time is double or triple normally expected dwell time.

I think what the flex may do is allow you to hold the ball fractionally longer for the topsheet to rebound creating mechanical spin. And since the topsheet gets stretched laterally on the rubber, that rebound might actually add to spin. But for the flex of the blade to add to the projection of the ball in the direction of the blade it would have to flex side to side rather than front to back.

Think about it some more.

IB66 · Nov 27, 2020

IB66 said:
The flex Carl is talking about is flex caused by impact of the ball onto the bat, when the bat is stationary, and it can’t rebound back fast enough to keep up with the ball as it bounces off the bat.
You’re talking about flex caused by the forward acceleration of the stroke , which I feel would be there, but in the scale of things, not a huge factor.

Just to clarify, when the ball impacts the bat, whether the bat is stationary or moving, the impact causes the blade to flex, and it can’t catch up with the ball.
this post was also meant to reply to nymose’s post #39.

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 27, 2020

IB66 said:
The flex Carl is talking about is flex caused by impact of the ball onto the bat, when the bat is stationary, and it can’t rebound back fast enough to keep up with the ball as it bounces off the bat.
You’re talking about flex caused by the forward acceleration of the stroke , which I feel would be there, but in the scale of things, not a huge factor.

This is interesting.

Can you do a detailed explanation of flex that results from forward acceleration of the stroke? What direction would the flex of the blade take in the scenario you are describing?

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nymose · Nov 27, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
I think what you are saying about smashes is fine.

What you are saying about loops and flex, I have heard stuff like this often. But I don't believe it can be correct. The rebound of the flex, if the rebound helped, would propel the ball down because the blade, on a loop is facing mostly down (closed). The actual dwell time is in microseconds. The differences do matter. They do mean something. But if it takes 1 second for a stroke, the racket covers 4 feet in the stroke and the ball is on the blade for a fraction of an inch of distance for a long dwell time, that fraction of an inch when the racket is moving fastest will still be in microseconds even if the dwell time is double or triple normally expected dwell time.

I think what the flex may do is allow you to hold the ball fractionally longer for the topsheet to rebound creating mechanical spin. And since the topsheet gets stretched laterally on the rubber, that rebound might actually add to spin. But for the flex of the blade to add to the projection of the ball in the direction of the blade it would have to flex side to side rather than front to back.

Think about it some more.

Yes, this is of course when taken Into consideration that you have sheets of rubber attached to it. I think most plays tabletennis with rubbers on [emoji28]

Classic limba outer with ayous only inner blades in 5.8 - 6.0 mm (Allround Evolution and SWAT) vs. 6.3 - 6.5 mm (bt777 and W7) with the same rubbers (or even different ones) there's a significant difference in how the ball flies of the racket from looping. The flexier ones I mentioned sends the ball more upwards, in a higher curve. The stiffer ones I mentioned has a more direct curve. Though still having a mid-high throw. The ball doesn't feel like grab and throw in the same way or as easily rather.
This is according to my own personal experience

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NextLevel · Nov 27, 2020

nymose said:
Hmm, interesting. I genuinely thought that it would be the the same for everybody. That limba outer would help generate spin easier than koto outer for everybody. But that more skilled players don't necessarily needs that extra dwell, depending on their style of course. Like a loose-some-win-some.

It's funny, because usually I'm the guy who advocates about everyone being different and having different needs, views etc.

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Definitely not the same for everyone and sometimes, not even the same for the same person at two different points in their life. People also underestimate the impact of the inner plies as well. I personally prefer the feeling of Ayous to Kiri, and I find that in many cases more important than what is the outer ply (I even prefer harder outer plies if the inner is ayous). And last but not least for this post, the plastic ball plays a role as well.

nymose · Nov 27, 2020

Even though the blade flexes more back and foward than site to site, a loop is not just a straight foward movement in the same fashion as a smash is. You go upwards while going foward. And the movement is slightly curved. It doesn't go in a complete straight line, especially because you also rotate your body (If you're doing it properly). The whipping action from your underarm and wrist is where the main flexing from site to site comes from in the shot of course. Together with the blade flexing backwards and then fowards with the sideways, upwards and slightly curve movement it will create some slightly warping in flex from the blade. And this is of course taking Into account that you're playing with rubbers, which also adds to the weight on the head. And it Also helps with the side to side slingshot action, Because rubber is quite elastic.

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nymose · Nov 27, 2020

NextLevel said:
Definitely not the same for everyone and sometimes, not even the same for the same person at two different points in their life. People also underestimate the impact of the inner plies as well. I personally prefer the feeling of Ayous to Kiri, and I find that in many cases more important than what is the outer ply (I even prefer harder outer plies if the inner is ayous). And last but not least for this post, the plastic ball plays a role as well.

Inner plies definetly plays a significant role. Harder inners can add to the kick when digging more into the shot with the wrist. I guess that could not only add to the speed but also the spin using the right technique?

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NextLevel · Nov 27, 2020

nymose said:
Inner plies definetly plays a significant role. Harder inners can add to the kick when digging more into the shot with the wrist. I guess that could not only add to the speed but also the spin using the right technique?

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Wrist effect is misconceived, ultimately the speed/acceleration rotational element of the contact is all that matters for spin and the wrist isn't the only thing generating this.

I find it interesting that no one brings up the Mazunov. For a combination of speed and feeling as an all wood 5-ply, easily the best I have ever used.

nymose · Nov 27, 2020

NextLevel said:
Wrist effect is misconceived, ultimately the speed/acceleration rotational element of the contact is all that matters for spin and the wrist isn't the only thing generating this.

I find it interesting that no one brings up the Mazunov. For a combination of speed and feeling as an all wood 5-ply, easily the best I have ever used.

No it isn't the only thing

Underarm, body rotation, racket angle, racket movement (I'm thinking specifically on the ghost serve here as an example).

Haven't tried Mazunov. Isn't it quite heavy for the most part?

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UpSideDownCarl · Nov 27, 2020

nymose said:
Yes, this is of course when taken Into consideration that you have sheets of rubber attached to it. I think most plays tabletennis with rubbers on [emoji28]

Classic limba outer with ayous only inner blades in 5.8 - 6.0 mm (Allround Evolution and SWAT) vs. 6.3 - 6.5 mm (bt777 and W7) with the same rubbers (or even different ones) there's a significant difference in how the ball flies of the racket from looping. The flexier ones I mentioned sends the ball more upwards, in a higher curve. The stiffer ones I mentioned has a more direct curve. Though still having a mid-high throw. The ball doesn't feel like grab and throw in the same way or as easily rather.
This is according to my own personal experience

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And all I am saying is, it is likely that the reason you feel the higher throw and the grab and hold with the blades that have more flex is likely that, as the blade flexes, it does allow the ball to stay just a hair longer.

So, you describing what you feel, that sounds good. This is a common thing to feel on a loop with a blade that has good flex.

I am just saying, the ball being propelled out probably has more to do with how you touch the ball, that the flex may add dwell time, and that maybe this allows the rebound of the stretched topsheet, to have more impact while acting on the edge of the ball where the rubber has grabbed.

This is a theory.

But it is plain that the flex of the blade happens too slowly for the rebound to add to propelling the ball out. And if the flex did add to the speed or spin, the the flex would have to be in the direction from right edge to left edge or left edge to right rather than how a blade flexes which is from BH side to FH side and FH side to BH side.

So, the flex may allow you a greater amount of room for error because it allows you to hold the ball that fraction longer. But the actual flex of the blade is not actually what you are feeling propel the ball out. Even if that is how it feels.

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NextLevel · Nov 28, 2020

nymose said:
No it isn't the only thing Underarm, body rotation, racket angle, racket movement (I'm thinking specifically on the ghost serve here as an example).

Haven't tried Mazunov. Isn't it quite heavy for the most part?

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Nothing special vs a Korbel. You can get one under 100g and there are ways to manage the weight. Definitely a spinny blade that can compete with fast composites. Now more OFF than OFF+.

nymose · Nov 28, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
And all I am saying is, it is likely that the reason you feel the higher throw and the grab and hold with the blades that have more flex is likely that, as the blade flexes, it does allow the ball to stay just a hair longer.

So, you describing what you feel, that sounds good. This is a common thing to feel on a loop with a blade that has good flex.

I am just saying, the ball being propelled out probably has more to do with how you touch the ball, that the flex may add dwell time, and that maybe this allows the rebound of the stretched topsheet, to have more impact while acting on the edge of the ball where the rubber has grabbed.

This is a theory.

But it is plain that the flex of the blade happens too slowly for the rebound to add to propelling the ball out. And if the flex did add to the speed or spin, the the flex would have to be in the direction from right edge to left edge or left edge to right rather than how a blade flexes which is from BH side to FH side and FH side to BH side.

So, the flex may allow you a greater amount of room for error because it allows you to hold the ball that fraction longer. But the actual flex of the blade is not actually what you are feeling propel the ball out. Even if that is how it feels.

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No, it's more what I see than what I feel. What I feel is a clearer kick, when using more wrist for instance. So that could be Because the blade has more feel. Both of the ones I mentioned also has Some slightly harder inner ayous layers, which I suspect gives the blades a more clear kick in combination with the blades having a lot of feel. In contrast though I have a bt555, an that doesn't behave the same. It's more uniform between passive and loop compared to the 2 others. Similarly to bt777 and W7. But the one I had in the past had that bigger difference similar to the 2 5-plies. Bt555 has the same thickness as those. And the dwell is not less in my experience, but the spin is. Feel is about the same amount, but it doesn't have that clear kick feeling when using more wrist. It's Also slower than the AE I had and Swat. But the Old one was about as fast. But it was also significantly heavier.

What I see with my eyes is a significant difference when going from passive shots to looping. The difference isn't as big for me with the stiffer blades. Of course there's still huge difference between passive and loop [emoji28]

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nymose · Nov 28, 2020

NextLevel said:
Nothing special vs a Korbel. You can get one under 100g and there are ways to manage the weight. Definitely a spinny blade that can compete with fast composites. Now more OFF than OFF+.

Interesting, but I'm more tempted to try a J-power instead. Probably Should just stick to bt777 haha [emoji38]

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NextLevel · Nov 28, 2020

nymose said:
Interesting, but I'm more tempted to try a J-power instead. Probably Should just stick to bt777 haha [emoji38]

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The best player I know who started as an adult uses a JM SZLC. The Mazunov is the only thing that I know comes close in speed that is all wood. How you guys use those slowish looping 7 plies, I really have no clue.

nymose · Nov 28, 2020

NextLevel said:
The best player I know who started as an adult uses a JM SZLC. The Mazunov is the only thing that I know comes close in speed that is all wood. How you guys use those slowish looping 7 plies, I really have no clue.

Haha, I mainly play close to table and only mid when I need to. My play varies from agressive to more passive. So quite allround like most seniors at my level I guess, but still in my own way. Some other players finds me quite agressive. But I guess that's relative.
I just started playing 4 Months ago after 6 years. But back then I played with bt555 and bt550 with Zap and cj8000 mainly. But that kind of setup doesn't work that well for me these days. Especially not against more passive or more aggressive players than myself.

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UpSideDownCarl · Nov 28, 2020

Mazunov is an excellent blade. Worth trying.

yogi_bear · Nov 28, 2020

I think the DHS 08 is faster than the Mazunov. I have a coach who was taught by Wang Nan's old coach and he was given a special DHS 08. He has been using it until now. It is very heavy at 118grams and felt as fast as a primorac carbon. Even with that speed, i felt looping with it was still very spinny.

IB66 · Nov 28, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
This is interesting.

Can you do a detailed explanation of flex that results from forward acceleration of the stroke? What direction would the flex of the blade take in the scenario you are describing?

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There could be an extremely small amount of deflection, probably none, blades are just generally stiff and resist the deflection. The potential is there, but it’s likely it never happens because the speed and force required to be imparted during the stroke is too high to be achieved. If a TT bat had a short thin shaft then the deflection would be far more evident.
A Badminton rackets head gets ‘left behind’ during the forward motion of a stroke and then catches up, as does a golf club head, the deflection is designed in to get the ‘whip’ and further acceleration.

Whats interesting is that the impact of a small plastic ball hitting a bat does make the bat deflect!!

UpSideDownCarl · Nov 28, 2020

IB66 said:
There could be an extremely small amount of deflection, probably none, blades are just generally stiff and resist the deflection. The potential is there, but it’s likely it never happens because the speed and force required to be imparted during the stroke is too high to be achieved. If a TT bat had a short thin shaft then the deflection would be far more evident.
A Badminton rackets head gets ‘left behind’ during the forward motion of a stroke and then catches up, as does a golf club head, the deflection is designed in to get the ‘whip’ and further acceleration.

Whats interesting is that the impact of a small plastic ball hitting a bat does make the bat deflect!!

Still, if impact caused that direction of flex, the rebound would be too slow to add to the speed or spin of the shot as well.

It makes sense that a golf club or a badminton racket would have that. Based on design, the wood plies, flexion in that direction would likely be minimal in a TT racket. It is interesting to think of that in a badminton racket or a golf club.

Spinniest but fastest all-wood blade that you've tried.

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