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    1. Top | #61
      IB66 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Still, if impact caused that direction of flex, the rebound would be too slow to add to the speed or spin of the shot as well.

      It makes sense that a golf club or a badminton racket would have that. Based on design, the wood plies, flexion in that direction would likely be minimal in a TT racket. It is interesting to think of that in a badminton racket or a golf club.
      4 x 3 timber golf club!!

    2. Top | #62
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      The flex in a golf Club or badminton racket is quite evident yes. They have a real slingshot effect.

      But tabletennis-equipments small differences tends to be quite signifcant. And wood is flexible to Some degree. How much of an effect, depends on the thickness and length. Of course the very short distance from the handle to the head will make it a lot less flexing than a Golf Club or badminton racket. But we're not talking about the same amount here. If we did, then thinner all wooden blades would be the fastest, but they're clearly not, because the rebound given from the thin blade itself is not enough. But it can be a significant difference between low impact and loops, but not smashes. The movement of a smash in tt is not the same as badminton, where the movement is shorter and more direct, allowing the slingshot to have a positive effect on the short.

      Some people clearly witness the flexing in a blade and its effect on loops. Yes the ball hangs longer, so there'll be less room for error with a thinner blade. But not all blades with the same thickness and similar construction will have a clear trampoline effect.


      Flexy blades I've tried that had a clear trampoline effect:

      Stiga Allround Evolution - 91g

      Tsp swat - 83g

      Avalox bt555 - at least 90g

      Avalox bt550 - 80-85g


      Flexy Blades I've tried that didn't have a clear effect:

      Avalox bt555 - 85g

      Stiga Allround Classic - 43g

      Yasaka Sweden classic - lightweight

      Donic Waldner Allplay - lightweight


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      Last edited by nymose; 11-28-2020 at 12:05 PM.

    3. Top | #63
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      If you want fast blade but with a lot of control maybe you should try a carbon blade but with a very thin carbon layers?

    4. Top | #64
      nymose is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by ArturS View Post
      If you want fast blade but with a lot of control maybe you should try a carbon blade but with a very thin carbon layers?
      Ma lin carbon?

      Though this isn't a thread made directly in search for a blade
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      Last edited by nymose; 11-28-2020 at 12:26 PM.

    5. Top | #65
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by nymose View Post
      The flex in a golf Club or badminton racket is quite evident yes. They have a real slingshot effect.

      But tabletennis-equipments small differences tends to be quite signifcant. And wood is flexible to Some degree. How much of an effect, depends on the thickness and length. Of course the very short distance from the handle to the head will make it a lot less flexing than a Golf Club or badminton racket. But we're not talking about the same amount here. If we did, then thinner all wooden blades would be the fastest, but they're clearly not, because the rebound given from the thin blade itself is not enough. But it can be a significant difference between low impact and loops, but not smashes. The movement of a smash in tt is not the same as badminton, where the movement is shorter and more direct, allowing the slingshot to have a positive effect on the short.

      Some people clearly witness the flexing in a blade and its effect on loops. Yes the ball hangs longer, so there'll be less room for error with a thinner blade. But not all blades with the same thickness and similar construction will have a clear trampoline effect.


      Flexy blades I've tried that had a clear trampoline effect:

      Stiga Allround Evolution - 91g

      Tsp swat - 83g

      Avalox bt555 - at least 90g

      Avalox bt550 - 80-85g


      Flexy Blades I've tried that didn't have a clear effect:

      Avalox bt555 - 85g

      Stiga Allround Classic - 43g

      Yasaka Sweden classic - lightweight

      Donic Waldner Allplay - lightweight


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      You are still not understanding my point. Blades with flex are quite frequently good for looping. That part is not in dispute.

      What I am saying is the flex does something different than most people realize. The rebound of the flex is too slow to have an effect on the shot because the blade does not rebound until the ball has left. Dwell time is simply not long enough for the ball to still be on the blade face by the time the rebound of the flex has happened.

      So, I am saying that the results described as happening with a blade that has more flex when looping are likely the result of the the initial flex letting you hold the ball on the rubber longer. Rather than it being a result of the wood rebounding. If that is the case, what rebounds and causes the extra effect, could be that the ball has been given more time in contact with the rubber so that the rebound of the topsheet has more effect on the ball. That rebound might happen faster than the rebound of the wood.

      But having seen slow motion footage of wood flexing, I don't think the wood rebounding can happen anywhere near fast enough for the rebound to propel the ball. And I doubt the wood can flex side to side anywhere near enough because of the construction of the wood which is very different than the tube of a golf handle or a badminton racket (long thin shaft vs flat piece of wood).

      I honestly doubt that there can be notable side to side flex in a TT blade handle because the wood is designed to not flex in that specific direction. Thinner blades flex forward and back much more easily. the way the wood is lined up, the wood is much more resistant to side to side force.

      And for flex-rebound to help a TT loop it would have to be side to side flex. Forward to back flex would push the ball down if it affected the ball--this is because the racket is closed over the top of the ball, so facing down or mostly down.

      So, this isn't an issue of whether blades with flex are better for looping. That is not what I am talking about.

      I am just questioning what it is that causes a blade with flex to be better for looping. And I am suggesting that what causes that is NOT the rebound from the flex of the wood. Instead, it is something else. Probably the extra room for error that the more flexible blade allows and perhaps the extra time on the rubber allowing the rubber to have more of a mechanical spin effect on the ball.

      And another thing that can be said simply, these issues are not there for someone with really high level technique. Higher level players can loop with blades that are fairly stiff without loss of performance because their contact is enough better that they don't need the extra room for error to apply maximum force into spinning the ball.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 11-28-2020 at 01:25 PM.
      Spin Everything.

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    7. Top | #66
      PushSmasher is offline
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      Any thoughts on this new 5-ply wood + Cellulose Nanofiber coming out in spring from Butterfly? Could it be the holy grail of 5-ply?

      https://www.butterfly-global.com/product/cnf/

    8. Top | #67
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      You are still not understanding my point. Blades with flex are quite frequently good for looping. That part is not in dispute.

      What I am saying is the flex does something different than most people realize. The rebound of the flex is too slow to have an effect on the shot because the blade does not rebound until the ball has left. Dwell time is simply not long enough for the ball to still be on the blade face by the time the rebound of the flex has happened.

      So, I am saying that the results described as happening with a blade that has more flex when looping are likely the result of the the initial flex letting you hold the ball on the rubber longer. Rather than it being a result of the wood rebounding. If that is the case, what rebounds and causes the extra effect, could be that the ball has been given more time in contact with the rubber so that the rebound of the topsheet has more effect on the ball. That rebound might happen faster than the rebound of the wood.

      But having seen slow motion footage of wood flexing, I don't think the wood rebounding can happen anywhere near fast enough for the rebound to propel the ball. And I doubt the wood can flex side to side anywhere near enough because of the construction of the wood which is very different than the tube of a golf handle or a badminton racket (long thin shaft vs flat piece of wood).

      I honestly doubt that there can be notable side to side flex in a TT blade handle because the wood is designed to not flex in that specific direction. Thinner blades flex forward and back much more easily. the way the wood is lined up, the wood is much more resistant to side to side force.

      And for flex-rebound to help a TT loop it would have to be side to side flex. Forward to back flex would push the ball down if it affected the ball--this is because the racket is closed over the top of the ball, so facing down or mostly down.

      So, this isn't an issue of whether blades with flex are better for looping. That is not what I am talking about.

      I am just questioning what it is that causes a blade with flex to be better for looping. And I am suggesting that what causes that is NOT the rebound from the flex of the wood. Instead, it is something else. Probably the extra room for error that the more flexible blade allows and perhaps the extra time on the rubber allowing the rubber to have more of a mechanical spin effect on the ball.

      And another thing that can be said simply, these issues are not there for someone with really high level technique. Higher level players can loop with blades that are fairly stiff without loss of performance because their contact is enough better that they don't need the extra room for error to apply maximum force into spinning the ball.
      No I wasn't, sorry So much to read that I only got some of it in. But super, I thought you where trying to say that the flex wouldn't have any effect on the looping at all (for some reason).


      I'm getting that the flex might make the ball stay longer on the blade, making more room for error, because you can drag the ball along easier. That in itself would affect the throw angle to be higher, but not the speed. It would make the ball slower in most shots. BUT looping is not a motion that only drags the ball along.


      And yes I'm pretty sure that the rubber also have it's say in the rebound, because of course it does. We all experience that when playing tabletennis.

      But since any blade doesn't flex THAT obviously, couldn't the release of the ball when snapping your wrist and underarm together with the weight of the head (with rubbers on of course) be enough to make the flex matter in the rebound? I don't think there's much side to side flexing as such from a blade (And certainly not in the handle), since the layers are typically placed vertically and horisontally on eachother to stabilize the build. But I am pretty convinced that there'll be some slight warping, so that it's not just a straight back and foward flexing. When I was a kid i tried to remove glue from a premade racket with hot water, which ended up warping the blade. So it's possible to affect the blade in that direction, without it actually breaking.

      And as I mentioned earlier, I think that the whole movement from the loop, makes it so that you don't hit the ball straight on, but you still do it somewhat. So if the the blade head Warps slightly together with the rubbers elastic action, then I can't see why it couldn't be possible for the flex of the blade together with the rubbers to affect the rebound in a way that it could add more speed. So the ball wouldn't push the ball downwards, since it's not a "simple" straight back and forward movement you do when looping, but you're still hitting it relatively straight on to a certain extend. And the rubber sheets helps the ball not going straight down, when doing a loop. All these small things added together (which is a typical pattern in tt), could make the difference compared to a Golf club and badminton racket. It's not just one relatively straight direction in the whole movement.

      I agree with the thing about high level skills.

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    9. Top | #68
      nymose is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by PushSmasher View Post
      Any thoughts on this new 5-ply wood + Cellulose Nanofiber coming out in spring from Butterfly? Could it be the holy grail of 5-ply?

      https://www.butterfly-global.com/product/cnf/
      That sounds very interesting! Isn't it 7 ply though? 5 + 2 cellulose

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    10. Top | #69
      thomas.pong is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by PushSmasher View Post
      Any thoughts on this new 5-ply wood + Cellulose Nanofiber coming out in spring from Butterfly? Could it be the holy grail of 5-ply?

      https://www.butterfly-global.com/product/cnf/
      It's been out since March 2020.

      It's a 5+2 fiber plies blade.

      Apparently is close in kick and speed as a Viscaria but has more of a wood feel.

      Some pros are starting to use CNF.

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    12. Top | #70
      nymose is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by thomas.pong View Post
      It's been out since March 2020.

      It's a 5+2 fiber plies blade.

      Apparently is close in kick and speed as a Viscaria but has more of a wood feel.

      Some pros are starting to use CNF.
      And it's very expensive... I'm not gonna buy it

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    13. Top | #71
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by nymose View Post
      And it's very expensive... I'm not gonna buy it
      It is also not all wood. By definition it is a composite blade.

    14. Top | #72
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      I tried to slip it in there but got caught for it both being an actual 7-ply blade and not all wood. Haha. I tried.


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    16. Top | #73
      nymose is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      It is also not all wood. By definition it is a composite blade.
      It is

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    17. Top | #74
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      The best player I know who started as an adult uses a JM SZLC. The Mazunov is the only thing that I know comes close in speed that is all wood. How you guys use those slowish looping 7 plies, I really have no clue.
      Well, you liked one of my slowish 7 ply low end OFF blades and I liked it a lot too... under pressure of a tourney, i could pick it up with familiar rubbers, and within seveal points adjust and play same level, maybe an arguement for better level as I tend ot land it a little more with that kind of blade and same rubbers.

      I still support your arguements. You are not given to talking out ur tail end.
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    18. Top | #75
      Der_Echte is offline
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      This thread is also funny A.F.

      Carl got enticed to really articulate on a lot of factors that are actually things contributing to control in one aspect or another.

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    20. Top | #76
      nymose is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      Well, you liked one of my slowish 7 ply low end OFF blades and I liked it a lot too... under pressure of a tourney, i could pick it up with familiar rubbers, and within seveal points adjust and play same level, maybe an arguement for better level as I tend ot land it a little more with that kind of blade and same rubbers.

      I still support your arguements. You are not given to talking out ur tail end.
      What blade was that?

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    21. Top | #77
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      This thread is also funny A.F.

      Carl got enticed to really articulate on a lot of factors that are actually things contributing to control in one aspect or another.
      Always entertaining to try and explain things to someone who takes a combative stance like there is an argument while not actually reading the content presented.

    22. Top | #78
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Always entertaining to try and explain things to someone who takes a combative stance like there is an argument while not actually reading the content presented.
      I thought you were the one taking somewhat of a combative stance though. I did read all of your content. I just got too tired in my head to be able to put all the details together (I have ADD I think). I always have my attention sticking out like antennas (that's what medication helps preventing). Funny enough, I have a tendency to write long texts myself and sometimes forgetting that others might have it the same way as me.

      It's funny that Some people takes a neutral tone as being negative (I'm not Saying that you did). Like because it's not positive, it can only be the direct opposite.

      I just like disgussing things that interested me, and I love when you can find common ground. Of course people don't have to agree. It is what it is.

      Personally I find it annoying myself when people sees any discussion as being negative and gets offended by it. Why not have a healthy discussion and maybe learn something?

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    23. Top | #79
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      Well, you liked one of my slowish 7 ply low end OFF blades and I liked it a lot too... under pressure of a tourney, i could pick it up with familiar rubbers, and within seveal points adjust and play same level, maybe an arguement for better level as I tend ot land it a little more with that kind of blade and same rubbers.

      I still support your arguements. You are not given to talking out ur tail end.
      That was when I still thought spin was effective. It doesn't get you quite what it used to with these ABS plastic balls. Also I step back a bit more often now. Hard to loop the ball with a short stroke without knees with those slower blades. Even worse if you are blocking a couple of feet behind the table.
      Last edited by NextLevel; 11-29-2020 at 01:40 AM.
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    24. Top | #80
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      Quote Originally Posted by nymose View Post
      I thought you were the one taking somewhat of a combative stance though. I did read all of your content. I just got too tired in my head to be able to put all the details together (I have ADD I think). I always have my attention sticking out like antennas (that's what medication helps preventing). Funny enough, I have a tendency to write long texts myself and sometimes forgetting that others might have it the same way as me.

      It's funny that Some people takes a neutral tone as being negative (I'm not Saying that you did). Like because it's not positive, it can only be the direct opposite.

      I just like disgussing things that interested me, and I love when you can find common ground. Of course people don't have to agree. It is what it is.

      Personally I find it annoying myself when people sees any discussion as being negative and gets offended by it. Why not have a healthy discussion and maybe learn something?
      I was hearing you present things as though they contradicted what I was trying to explain which only made it clear to me that you hadn't understood what I was trying to explain.

      But I understand the not having the patience to read something dense where the meaning needs to be thought about and examined, and therefore, not getting to the point of understanding what was stated.

      However, it did seem, that, multiple times, despite not getting what I was trying to explain, you tried to refute what you had not fully understood in what I was trying to explain.

      No harm though. It is always fun for me to try to explain things till we get to the point that, at least what I am saying is either understood, or, the person realizes they have not quite done the work to get to that understanding.

      I like that about the forum. So, I don't think there is any harm in coming at a subject multiple times, trying to say things in different ways to see what will help uncover the actual content.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 11-29-2020 at 02:09 AM.

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