Upgrading blade and what it means to be able to control

Tango K · Dec 25, 2020

I gotta say I’ve no idea how I managed to read your whole essay

Thanks to either xmas or lockdown 2.1, or both!!!

When my training partner came back to that Ai Fukuhara (basically yet another Innerforce) and wasted 3 months of my efforts and his, I was particularly upset. We got together to the level of consistently counter top spin close to the table until we simply run out of breathe with his Stiga Allround Classic, then he threw all of that away. Not a single ball had consistent power. Worse, most of the time he just borrowed my power to do his weird things and when I fed him with floats, he’s effectively dead without knowing the differences. He has switched back to Allround Classic again but still dreaming of “If I can learn a way to tame that bat power”

I have no idea why it’s so hard for people to think “The bat is to unlock my power”, instead, all just think “I’ll tame the bat power. That’s control”.

To teetee, if you want to develop fast, you need a lot of belief that you can do a lot better than today (and it’s kinda hard once you’ve passed your peak year) even on the day that nothing clicks. Save your brain to think - “why the heck that kid’s ball is so difficult to power eventhough it’s neither spinny nor powerful. What’s wrong with my swing” - instead of “My Pg7 is so weak it cant power that slow stuff”. I’m not trying to phylosophical. It took me quite a lot of mental to switch from my training partner’s way of thinking to this. (And trust me, a lot of people don’t)

UpSideDownCarl · Dec 25, 2020

Yeah. I wish there was a simple way of explaining this.

But, unfortunately, this stuff is hard for people to understand.

Baal · Dec 25, 2020

Constantly changing equipment delays progress. An Innerforce is not so fast that it will necessarily delay your progress, it is a blade that can suit a wide range of people, but whatever you decide, plan to stick with it. I'm not sure tacky rubber is a great idea for a developing player (especially on BH side), but again, constant changes are not ideal and will slow you down.

merlin el mago · Dec 25, 2020

Baal said:
Constantly changing equipment delays progress. An Innerforce is not so fast that it will necessarily delay your progress, it is a blade that can suit a wide range of people, but whatever you decide, plan to stick with it. I'm not sure tacky rubber is a great idea for a developing player (especially on BH side), but again, constant changes are not ideal and will slow you down.

Very good advice.

teetee · Dec 25, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
And then there is the emotional side of things.

Now, for instance, as you have wrote more and more, I have gotten a better sense of what you need from the pure standpoint of learning the sport. However, I have also got that from the emotional side of things, if I told you to get something as slow as you actually need, you would try it, say to yourself, "this blade is way to slow for me, Carl doesn't know what he is talking about," and go back to something way way too fast for you.

That blade would most likely be the Appelgren Allplay which I slipped into my simple generic list. However, I told you you could get the Korbel because it was fast enough that you might stick with it even though it is still likely way too fast for you based on a lot of what you have said in this thread.

Don't get me wrong, i am not dismissive or going to blame you for not the right bat. as for video, i have to figure something out, due to covid situation it's not easy to get venues to play, and the current one has strict no video policy. I dig up my distance memory and i remember having a go with a stiga All Round CR H3 on both side before, and honestly no distinct speed difference with my current PG7, may be a tiny bit slower but that's too far back to remember. I am all for Appelgren Allplay, but it's not available where i am and i want to try the handle and see the quality for myself, and any slow Allround blade that is solid quality, good feedback and vibration but not too much to a distracting level, PG7 was ordered online and was quite a bad fit. BTY Korbel has its appeal because of BTY quality control. I mean even the Korbel is not available at local shop so yeah you could told me to get that even though it is too fast for me and i won't be getting it because i cannot try the handle

I want to try out the handle and feel in my hand before committing to buy, so only those mentioned above are available at my local shop are Xiom Offensive S / Extreme S, Azalea AllRound/OFF, YEO, Sweden Classic and Stiga Offensive Wood NCT, or even slower like Xiom AllRound S, and slower than that i guess we are getting into defensive blade. Out of those, may be Azalea Allround or Sweden Classic (not Extra) and Xiom Allround S are the slowest i assume, are they good enough? How about Xiom Offensive S, is it reaching the Korbel territory already? I just look for well built quality blade with required properties to play with for at least 2-3 years. I know it is hard but even if there is an ordered list of blades i should get then i just go to shop and try one by one until the first one that i find comfortable also would help a lot, because inventory may change, they may rarely has an Acoustic around also

UpSideDownCarl said:
I have hit with someone who was 94 years old. Think about a sport that someone who is 94 years old can play.

But those things are also why, when someone is trying to learn, and wants to develop a certain style of play, they kind of need the right equipment for where they are at.

this is why i want to learn TT, as it is not as "demanding" as says, basketball or soccer, and to keep playing for long i want to learn the correct way, with or without coach

UpSideDownCarl said:
As someone new to TT, I totally get that you don't understand.

yeah, we are here to discuss TT and not other sports equipment, and you are definitely more experience than me, so even if i don't understand for now, an agreement is still reached

Tango K said:
I have no idea why it’s so hard for people to think “The bat is to unlock my power”, instead, all just think “I’ll tame the bat power. That’s control”.

To teetee, if you want to develop fast, you need a lot of belief that you can do a lot better than today (and it’s kinda hard once you’ve passed your peak year) even on the day that nothing clicks. Save your brain to think - “why the heck that kid’s ball is so difficult to power eventhough it’s neither spinny nor powerful. What’s wrong with my swing” - instead of “My Pg7 is so weak it cant power that slow stuff”. I’m not trying to phylosophical. It took me quite a lot of mental to switch from my training partner’s way of thinking to this. (And trust me, a lot of people don’t)

Agree to agree, just to explain what i was thinking originally about getting innerforce

Baal said:
Constantly changing equipment delays progress. An Innerforce is not so fast that it will necessarily delay your progress, it is a blade that can suit a wide range of people, but whatever you decide, plan to stick with it. I'm not sure tacky rubber is a great idea for a developing player (especially on BH side), but again, constant changes are not ideal and will slow you down.

i was thinking if i keep changing equipment then may as well just start with advanced equipment, but that is also overestimate my learning ability to outgrow Allround off- blade in short amount of time. If an all round blade can do good for a few years then it's all good

Thanks everyone and happy holiday

teetee · Dec 25, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
BTW: that is something I don't exactly love about TT is that:

1) There is so many options in TT equipment.
2) Because of how much TT is a sport that is technical and about subtle details that most people who are not high level can't even see, so much depends on equipment when you are learning.

Yeah this is a problem, as a beginner i just went to revspin, see the most popular blade that is not too expensive (PG7) then buy. then may be it's not that good because pro are not using it, then Vis or Innerforce it is, but those are too expensive they require second opinion from someone who understand the sports better. It's not like running marathon where one just google the most popular marathon shoes among top 100 finishers and be good to go. As i read more and more i understand that revspins reviews are not that accurate, but at the same time get confused as well, too many fine details that is probably just one's imagination. My better friend can say that i should get a vis, because he is better and has been playing with vis since beginning, and i have no counter to that. Definitely a complex sport.

Baal said:
I'm not sure tacky rubber is a great idea for a developing player (especially on BH side), but again, constant changes are not ideal and will slow you down.

Out of all the things i managed to borrow and try, i think i feel the best with tacky BH, but it's my feel from inexperience play, so who knows. but with decent setup like a slower blade and more boosted tacky bh, may be it will work with some extra training

IB66 · Dec 25, 2020

Food for thought!!

From what I’ve read / learnt and from past experience from being a young player starting TT, the common coaching ideas, across the differing coaching philosophies, appears to be the blade, for beginners it generally seems to be an all wood, All, All+ blade.

When I started playing I had a cheap pre made bat, poor rubbers, First proper coaching lesson (group lesson) The coach took a look at this bat and immediately said I should get a better one!! Before I’d even hit a ball !!!
So my father bought a Dunlop bat, all wood All round blade, with a soft sponge, better quality rubber. This blade stayed with me for a number of years with the rubbers being exchanged the first time (rubbers degrade over time and usage) with a slight upgrade in spin and speed capabilities, the next rubber change was a like for like.
Eventually I changed blade !!
I chose a Butterfly Tamca 5000, which is an outer carbon layer, very fast blade, being still young and confident I was blinded by the fact this blade was the ‘top of the BTY range’ and would therefore improve my play (sriver and tackiness D as the rubbers), my progress slowed down but I still improved, however my partners improved quicker!! I eventually caught up and learnt how to handle this blade and loved it!!! used this set up for a number of years before, what a lot of people would consider as down grading blade (as far as speed) was concerned but was in fact an upgrade for control and feel, I progressed quicker from that point!! The blade was an old BTY Gruber All+ blade.

By all means get that TB ALC, or if possible a slower ALC with good feel, maybe inner layer as these are considered to have a ‘woody’ feeling. But really I feel an All, All+ blade is the best option.

Where I train, a couple of the coaches use defensive blades, make up the speed with their rubber choice and higher standard of technique. When I asked why a defensive blade?? the reply was control, control, control, feel, feel, feel. These guys can flash a ball past you effortlessly. It gives them confidence.
This is another important aspect - confidence in your blade and set up.

I think what happened when I got that Tamca blade, was at the start (1 yr at least) I made more errors, confidence then dropped, which almost snowballed into more and more errors, as Tango K said you need self belief, I kept going, improved and worked out how to use the blade.

Der_Echte · Dec 25, 2020

thomas.pong said:
I think you gave us some good background info. Since you have only played for a year, I strongly recommend you get a 5-ply all-wood blade in the ALL+/OFF- region...

TT/OP...

Get whatever blade you can afford and like. It is not gunna make any immediate major difference in your level WHATEVER blade you use.

Why?

You haven't had enough time to develop effective technique and feel and all the other gazillion small things needed in this sport.

Having said that, choosing something in the class Thomas P mentioned would be prudent.

Why?

Thomas said it is so many paragraphs, and so have so many TTD members over the years in this kind of thread, whihc happens nearly EVERY MONTH.

The point a lot of pundits and vets emphasize here is that reasonable middle ground equipment lets you feel the ball better and let you know when your impact is not good.

Why is that important? You are not gunna fix something you do not realize is wrong.

The blade you are drooling over, and many others will make it a lot more difficult to feel a bad impact and with your training, over time, it makes a dfference.

But what the heck, if a player never learns how to in position, on time, on balnce, anticipating where ball is gunna go so he or she can make a good shot, then it doesn't matter what blade you got.

Tango K · Dec 25, 2020

teetee said:
Yeah this is a problem, as a beginner i just went to revspin, see the most popular blade that is not too expensive (PG7) then buy.

Life is not supposed to be perfect! Trust me. A year from now you’ll be proud of your pick. “Yeah, it wasn’t perfect”

teetee said:
Out of all the things i managed to borrow and try, i think i feel the best with tacky BH, but it's my feel from inexperience play, so who knows. but with decent setup like a slower blade and more boosted tacky bh, may be it will work with some extra training

It’s ok. I play with tacky backhand as well. As long as it’s a bit bouncier. It’s starting to be a little tricky for my “playmates” to block my backhand opening. I’m that sexy

Professional wise, Tom Maynard, ttd founder, used to play with semi-tacky. Xu Xin, Ma Long, and now even europeans Timo Boll and Ovtcharov.

My first year was with RitC 729, very tacky and slow. Then Sriver. Forehand-wise, when I came back, straight to H3 after 1 month 05FX. I feel more like me with it than Tenergy. It doesn’t need to be better with. As long as you don’t blame it. It’s good

My “playmates” blame that I’m spinny because of that H3. Why don’t they go for it

I’ll just admit that it’s all H3.

IB66 · Dec 25, 2020

Tacky rubbers on the BH side are fine to use, as Tango K says spin levels can be really high, but as with FH the brushing technique is a must.
This is the good thing about Tacky rubbers, the brushing technique is needed to get out the best from the rubbers, obviously combined with everything else technique wise.
I think Tango K would be considered as spinny by his ‘playmates’ regardless of what type of rubber he used, because he has a grip on the brushing technique !!!
Many players don’t necessarily get this, when using the ESN/spring sponge rubbers it can get ‘lost’ or not utilised properly, if you have good brushing technique you’ll produce heavy spin.

yogi_bear · Dec 26, 2020

The thing with tacky rubbers on both sides will not matter for a beginner due to skills not yet developed but the moment he or she becomes an intermediate level player, the player will realize he has to put more effort on rallies in the backhand.

Dumper · Dec 26, 2020

"Korbel i have to check, as they don't seem to carry lower end BTY product and Stiga only starts with Clipper and above, and the only 5ply Donic i found is Persson Power AR."

After my Primorac was broken i started to play Donic Persson Powerallround in the middle of the season without any problem. It is a good blade also.

teetee · Dec 26, 2020

Der_Echte said:
TT/OP...
The point a lot of pundits and vets emphasize here is that reasonable middle ground equipment lets you feel the ball better and let you know when your impact is not good.

I totally agree with this point, and that is what i like about the PG7, it has very good feedback and i can tell exactly where i hit the ball and when i contact the ball really badly, but not really when it's good or half good. It has a bit too much vibration and uncomfortable handle though

Tango K said:
Life is not supposed to be perfect! Trust me. A year from now you’ll be proud of your pick. “Yeah, it wasn’t perfect”

yeah, that's what i thought when i get the PG7, but honestly at this age i overestimate my patient and i want something a bit more forgiving to learn and have some enjoyment along the way, PG7 is really a tough one and definitely will reward anyone with the patient to keep training correctly with it

yogi_bear said:
The thing with tacky rubbers on both sides wl not matter for a beginner due to skills not yet developed but the moment he or she becomes an intermediate level player, the player will realize he has to put more efforrt on rallies in the backhand.

thank you for the heads up, i will keep going with it until certain level and see how

Kuba Hajto · Dec 26, 2020

If you are going for Offensive 5 ply, consider OSP Virtuoso. They are on sale because of Covid. 10€ cheaper or so. It will be more expensive than a Japanese Korbel, but more premium. I am just throwing this as an option to consider.

teetee · Dec 28, 2020

@Kuba Hajto: i will go slower with 5wood all+ blade, there seem to have upside and almost no downside.

Does limba outer layer need to be sealed? or does it vary depending on blades?
and any significant difference between limba-limba vs limba-ayous or limba-spruce or limba-abachi? or not much difference and just pick anything that is rated all+ that i like?

LilMunchkin · Dec 28, 2020

teetee said:
@Kuba Hajto: i will go slower with 5wood all+ blade, there seem to have upside and almost no downside.

Does limba outer layer need to be sealed? or does it vary depending on blades?
and any significant difference between limba-limba vs limba-ayous or limba-spruce or limba-abachi? or not much difference and just pick anything that is rated all+ that i like?

There was one post I forgot which one, but I remember Carl saying limba limba has so much spin potential, but I like limba-spruce. I really lke the offensive classic master flared, that is what I can recommend.

Tango K · Dec 28, 2020

teetee said:
@Kuba Hajto: i will go slower with 5wood all+ blade, there seem to have upside and almost no downside.

Does limba outer layer need to be sealed? or does it vary depending on blades?
and any significant difference between limba-limba vs limba-ayous or limba-spruce or limba-abachi? or not much difference and just pick anything that is rated all+ that i like?

PG7 is limba-ayous, which is considered “classic” construction (it’s just a fancy English word to mean “most popular”, “standard”). If you like that feel, stick with that (limba-ayous, limba-limba, similar). If you like something a little harder, then limba-something harder. There are always pros and cons. Chaps like me and Carl who play limba-ayous/limba-limba is gonna say it’s best for spin and chap like brokenball is gonna say it’s all tangenian thingy, and Der_echte is gonna say something like Asian mystery

Truth is unfortunately

(1) It’s all down to your personal feeling. If you feel something too hard (like koto/walnut for me), you hesitate to go forward when you brush, not good. If you feel something too soft, you kinda hit through the ball too much to get the feel right, not good either. (One of the reason why lots of intermediate players like off— 5-ply equiv but carbon reinforced blades. I block for them and the balls are similar but they just perceive it faster and easier to execute. Likely due to harder feel)

(2) that feeling itself adapts. And that’s a big part of learning. If you fix yourself in and “adapt” other things. That’s not very good either. That’s why to me, if the blades are kinda similar, I perceive them the same. And as I said, life is not perfect. It’s not supposed to be. It evolves

I’d avoid overthink about minor differences.

teetee · Jan 2, 2021

update:
Got myself a Donic Persson Power Allround blade, rubber is the already bought golden tango (FH) and golden tango ps (BH)
first impression: may be the rubber is still advanced rubber, but the whole thing is slow, noticeably slower that what i had previously, but i have more confidence to do fuller and harder swing and the ball still land on the table. only have one session with it so far, now back to learning the basic and adapting to new racket, and so far the slow speed doesn't impede me from doing anything, but i also stop trying all the far table stuff, just basic drive, push, and some loop. Definitely require more power and full body coordination, which i like to learn. Very tiring though. One thing that people seem to agree/disagree is the time the racket hold onto the ball (dwell??), yes this racket has significant difference, i can feel it hold onto the ball for a fraction of second more than the faster racket. Still not able to impart more spin, but feel like this longer hold could help.

Just one session so still too early to say whether this is the correct decision, but i can start to see the merit of going slower. Other racket is still easier to play though, between this racket and my friend TB ALC dignic05, i am able to land more balls using the TB regardless of doing the correct stroke or not, so may be not so good to learn

Cheers and happy new year everyone

IB66 · Jan 2, 2021

teetee said:
update:
Got myself a Donic Persson Power Allround blade, rubber is the already bought golden tango (FH) and golden tango ps (BH)
first impression: may be the rubber is still advanced rubber, but the whole thing is slow, noticeably slower that what i had previously, but i have more confidence to do fuller and harder swing and the ball still land on the table. only have one session with it so far, now back to learning the basic and adapting to new racket, and so far the slow speed doesn't impede me from doing anything, but i also stop trying all the far table stuff, just basic drive, push, and some loop. Definitely require more power and full body coordination, which i like to learn. Very tiring though. One thing that people seem to agree/disagree is the time the racket hold onto the ball (dwell??), yes this racket has significant difference, i can feel it hold onto the ball for a fraction of second more than the faster racket. Still not able to impart more spin, but feel like this longer hold could help.

Just one session so still too early to say whether this is the correct decision, but i can start to see the merit of going slower. Other racket is still easier to play though, between this racket and my friend TB ALC dignic05, i am able to land more balls using the TB regardless of doing the correct stroke or not, so may be not so good to learn

Cheers and happy new year everyone

try and stick with the Persson blade, GT and GTPS are hybrid rubbers, GT has a harder sponge than the PS version.
both are tacky/semi tacky rubber, this is partly why they play slower.
Try a bounce test with and without a protective film on the rubbers, this negates the tack, so bounce is more with the protective sheet on the rubbers surface. And shows that it’s the tackiness that slows the rubber down.
So, Yes you will have to put more effort into your strokes, once you start producing good spin levels on your loops, you should see that the GT is slower through the air, but the ‘kick’ forward will be more pronounced.

Once you get use to the new set-up, hopefully you’ll enjoy it

!!

Tango K · Jan 2, 2021

It’s a good thing that you don’t do the away-from-the-table stuff.

When you have more flex and efficiency, the tiring will go away slowly. Don’t blame your fitness or equipment.

Upgrading blade and what it means to be able to control

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