Korea - Div 5 City tourney Final

Der_Echte · Dec 25, 2020

Hi everyone,

Here is footage of the finals of the 2013 Bucheon Div 5 finals of the city tourney.

This is what the top players in Div 5 city look like, not the average ones. Top players in City Div 5 are around 1500 USATT with whatever style they use. The aveerage level is more like 1000-1200.

This vid will give an idea of what the average TT club player looks like in Korea, 80% of them are Div 5 or Div 4 city level.

lodro · Dec 25, 2020

thanks for the post.
I like the friendly atmosphere around the table and especially the "rock-paper-scissors" to establish who serves first.

Lula · Dec 25, 2020

How many divisions are there? Think divison 5 in sweden are a bit better than these guys.

Der_Echte · Dec 26, 2020

Hi Lula,

The average amateur level of a Pro TT powerhouse nation like Korea is SURPRISINGLY WEAK.

The number of divisions depends on if it is a club, city/regional, or national tourney.

In clubs, you have HOPE div, which is raw newb, and anywhere from Div 7 or 8 onwards to Div 1.

In city regional, you have newb HOPE div, and Div 5 up to Div 1. The very few elite ones who are too good for the top Div 1 players are given classificatins of Div 0 or Div MINUS 1. Lula, You would be given Div Minus 1 at a minimum. You would be too good for Natl Div 1.

In National, you have Div 5 up to Div 1. The elite top Div 1 players might have a "Champions Div" they play in if they are too good for Div 1. Then you have the Pro Player Div. This is where the school trained must play. If you have pro training, you are not allowed to play with the amateurs.

If you are Div 2 or 3 city, you might still be Div 5 national. In Natl level, there is a LARGE number of ringers in each division. Normally, the difference between AVERAGE and TOP of each division would be 2 levels of skill. So the lesser player would normally lose on average 11-8 or 11-9 to the better player. This is how it is in city (except there are also a small percentage of ringers)

However, in Natl level, the difference between average and elite in each division if HUGE, like 7 levels. The average Div 4 Natl player would lose to the elite 11-4 on average and have zero chance, unless an associate of Tanya Harding Consulting intervened on your behalf. This is how bad the ringers are at Natl level.

In a HUGE natl tourney, like the ones regularly held in different branches of Seoul, you have maybe 250+ men's Div 4 players entered. Rank 200-75 would be a few levels better than the players seen in the original vid. They would all roughly be within a level or so of each other in skill.

However, the top 40-50 of this division will be anywhere from 3-7 levels better skilled players. Such a skilled player gives zero chance to the average player to compete. Those SHOULD be in a higher level, but it is complicated why they still in a lower division. Basically, the player, coach, and club fight for them to stay in a lower div so their player can fight for a top 3 finish where you get a certificate. Even if you win the Div, you only get promoted to the next division only for that tourney the next year, not everywhere.

Der_Echte · Dec 26, 2020

Hi Lula, this vid is between two guys at the club where they would both be top Div 1 players city level.

Guy in red is Natl Div 1. Guy in Blue Natl Div 2. Blue gets a 2 pt handicap each game. Neither of these makes many mistakes on serve receive and both have footwork.

Lula, you would win 11-8 minumum on average vs either of these I think.

Lula · Dec 26, 2020

Haha it seems a bit complicated? But it feels like there must be many that plays which is fun. Is it still common to use jpen?

Der_Echte · Dec 26, 2020

Here is a vid from a smaller amateur Tourney. These guys are natl div 3, but for sure not the top guys.

This will give a better idea of what a tourney is like for tha hall and the action.

Lula · Dec 26, 2020

Is it some kind of story about why they to do Rock Paper Scissors? Have only seen this in Asia.

Der_Echte · Dec 30, 2020

Hi Lula, they just like doing that to decide. It is quick and tradition.

Here is a vid between a dude and a gal, both classified at City Div 4. This is an average amateur classification, as most are Div 4 or 5. In Div 4, there are often players with higher skill that never won the city tourney to move up, or just have 1-2 things holding their level back.

The gal plays better than 80-90% of your normal City Div 4 player in Korea.

Der_Echte · Dec 30, 2020

Here is a vid between an amateur player Div 1 national and a player in the Pro Player Division for national tourneys. This guy in pro player div is not an ITTF pro, just that if your were actually a real former pro OR had those long years of Pro Training as a school athlete, then you can only play in the Pro Player Division in a national tourney. You cannot play vs amateurs.

Sometimes, a real small tourney will combine divisions and use handicap points. Youn Hong-Gyu gets 3 handicap points. 2 for the first difference in classification, then one per additional level difference. There is a Champions League division between them, so YHG gets 3 points to start off.

Lula, I think EVERYONE in your division would be in Pro Player Division. I think this guy playing as pro player div in this vid is many levels below a pro, by way above any Korean Amateur player.

Tinykin · Dec 30, 2020

Lula said:
How many divisions are there? Think divison 5 in sweden are a bit better than these guys.

Are you sure about that?
These Korean fellows seem quite young, definitely below 40yo.

This rally starting at 01:44 looks quite decent

https://youtu.be/0gcf6DpmTAA?t=103

Der_Echte · Dec 30, 2020

I do not know Swedish Div 5... and I see what Sweden Div 1 is like. The average player in Div 1 Sweden are the same class as the typical Korean schoolboy pro trained warrior in high school.

Those hs players, if they become adults and never improved further, would be too good to compete vs div 1 natl players. They would be typical pro player div.

Maybe pro player is misleading, but we use it for lack of a better word. The Korean word is Seon-soo, which is competitor, meaning very skilled competitor.

Pro trained tt athletes are simply too good to be allowed to compete with those trained only in an amateur tt club.

The vid was the final of div men's, the typical player in this div is several levels lower. All finals are like that.

I believe Lula when he says div 5 Sweden is higher level.

Now if you wear lipstick and play in Korea, chances are if you are O40, you play ox lp on bh by at least 75 percent.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

PushSmasher · Dec 31, 2020

Der_Echte said:
Hi everyone,

Here is footage of the finals of the 2013 Bucheon Div 5 finals of the city tourney.

This is what the top players in Div 5 city look like, not the average ones. Top players in City Div 5 are around 1500 USATT with whatever style they use. The aveerage level is more like 1000-1200.

This vid will give an idea of what the average TT club player looks like in Korea, 80% of them are Div 5 or Div 4 city level.

I watched some of the other videos from the same Youtube channel that posted this one, and saw something a little curious in one of them. Below is the link. Why are all the spectators wearing their winter jackets indoors? How cold is it inside the building?

https://youtu.be/Di2UlfaRsmU

Der_Echte · Jan 1, 2021

I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know... but if this is a typical city gym in Dec or Jan, by the time of Div 5 singes final (late afternoon), it was likely 13C or 55F in the hall. Nearly 100% of my tourneys in those moths are like that. EDIT: This was combined div 1 and div 2 finals, so it was likely evening time, and I think this tourney was early March... but even then, temps are still pretty much early Dec temps, still a little on the freezing side. Look at it lke this, if at 8 AM you brought a cold 24 pack of MGD to the venue to share with enemy coiaches to soften them up, the MGD would STILL be cold at 4 pm.

There was ONE tourney in early Dec one year, where I arranged to meet my ringer friends at my local TT club and then travel together to a regional tourney up north. I walked to club from my house, a 5 min walk in SHORTS, 2 light jackets, a fleece cap, and light fleece gloves and carried a cappucino. I met said friends on hte hallway of my club.

All 3 were SHIVERING something fierce and asked I could build a quick fire in the stairwell. I looked at these young 20s dudes and said Minnesota, Minnesota, ICELAND, it is only 1 C and you are wearing coats and FREEZING?? I took them to a convenience store and luckily, they all have a small fridge heated with hot drinks, soups, and teas. After they de-thawed a little, we got on a bus to go to the venue. After some trouble locating it, we entered venue at 8:30 AM.

INSIDE TEMP of venue was... you guessed it, 1 degree Celcius. They all had to wait a couple hours for their events to start and went into more shivers. I gave up my spare blanket, spare fleece cap, and spare neck gaitor. They all did well, one won Div 1 mens singles, and the other ringers, despite being clasified an extra 2 divisions higher than normal, almost made it to finals in doubles if not for two straight net balls.

I think the highest it ever got that day in the venue was 5 C or barely 40 F.

Korean municpal authorities do not believe in wasting money on the heating bill when people can make their own heat from moving around. That generally works, but when not in a match, it can get downright chilly and that is why you see so many winter jackets in the venue.

PushSmasher · Jan 1, 2021

Der_Echte said:
Korean municpal authorities do not believe in wasting money on the heating bill when people can make their own heat from moving around. That generally works, but when not in a match, it can get downright chilly and that is why you see so many winter jackets in the venue.

I told my wife I was jealous. I sweat so bad, I'd love to play in a gym that cold. :-D

Der_Echte · Jan 1, 2021

You get used to the temps in match quick enough once match starts, but if you do a lot of sitting around waiting for matches, your body can get downright chilly cold if you have no matches for 2 hrs.

Luckily, most Korean clubs do not care about USA style laws that would prohibit COOKING in the venue. Typically, your club collects $10 from all players, your club INVADES a 75 seat section of the upstairs seating area, then the ladies of the club bring a field kitchen cooking operation the military would be jealous of and procede to cook all kind of hot beef soup etc.

Half of the tourneys give you a hot lunch for free.

Typical cost for a Korean amateur TT tourney is $10 USD per event. Usually, there are only 3 or 4 events. Singles (in your div), doubles (in your Div), MAYBE a mixed doubles (in your div), and Team event.

If you place in semis or finals, you get a neat certificate, which you hand up in your club to show visiting players how many smeis/finals club members made. If the club has a filled up wall like this, it is a sign of good coaching or good recruitment.

PushSmasher · Jan 1, 2021

Der_Echte said:
You get used to the temps in match quick enough once match starts, but if you do a lot of sitting around waiting for matches, your body can get downright chilly cold if you have no matches for 2 hrs.

Luckily, most Korean clubs do not care about USA style laws that would prohibit COOKING in the venue. Typically, your club collects $10 from all players, your club INVADES a 75 seat section of the upstairs seating area, then the ladies of the club bring a field kitchen cooking operation the military would be jealous of and procede to cook all kind of hot beef soup etc.

Half of the tourneys give you a hot lunch for free.

Typical cost for a Korean amateur TT tourney is $10 USD per event. Usually, there are only 3 or 4 events. Singles (in your div), doubles (in your Div), MAYBE a mixed doubles (in your div), and Team event.

If you place in semis or finals, you get a neat certificate, which you hand up in your club to show visiting players how many smeis/finals club members made. If the club has a filled up wall like this, it is a sign of good coaching or good recruitment.

Now I'm really jealous. haha We are lucky here if we get a slice of pizza, not that you'd want to eat it when competing. I've been to tournaments where they don't even have water for the participants.

Der_Echte · Jan 1, 2021

Oh, I forgot to mention, that in ALL the city/Regional tourneys, at 11AM or 12, the organizers STOP all action, clear the middle of floor, have everyone sit down, (stand for) do the national anthem, have a 15 minute old people TT assn award ceremony, then hold a 30 minute door prize raffle. Then there is lunch for the tourneys that provide it.

Organizers get donations of all kinds of good rubbers, bat cases, rucksacks, small appliances, mountain bikes sometimes, etc. Usually 100 prizes. Your club's coach gets a packet of raffle tickets with their tourney registration and if the number matches, you win whatever prize is being called. Usually enough prizes for 1/3 or or so of the players. They call the numbers pretty fast, so stay sharp.

Tinykin · Jan 1, 2021

Der_Echte said:
I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know... but if this is a typical city gym in Dec or Jan, by the time of Div 5 singes final (late afternoon), it was likely 13C or 55F in the hall. Nearly 100% of my tourneys in those moths are like that. EDIT: This was combined div 1 and div 2 finals, so it was likely evening time, and I think this tourney was early March... but even then, temps are still pretty much early Dec temps, still a little on the freezing side. Look at it lke this, if at 8 AM you brought a cold 24 pack of MGD to the venue to share with enemy coiaches to soften them up, the MGD would STILL be cold at 4 pm.

There was ONE tourney in early Dec one year, where I arranged to meet my ringer friends at my local TT club and then travel together to a regional tourney up north. I walked to club from my house, a 5 min walk in SHORTS, 2 light jackets, a fleece cap, and light fleece gloves and carried a cappucino. I met said friends on hte hallway of my club.

All 3 were SHIVERING something fierce and asked I could build a quick fire in the stairwell. I looked at these young 20s dudes and said Minnesota, Minnesota, ICELAND, it is only 1 C and you are wearing coats and FREEZING?? I took them to a convenience store and luckily, they all have a small fridge heated with hot drinks, soups, and teas. After they de-thawed a little, we got on a bus to go to the venue. After some trouble locating it, we entered venue at 8:30 AM.

INSIDE TEMP of venue was... you guessed it, 1 degree Celcius. They all had to wait a couple hours for their events to start and went into more shivers. I gave up my spare blanket, spare fleece cap, and spare neck gaitor. They all did well, one won Div 1 mens singles, and the other ringers, despite being clasified an extra 2 divisions higher than normal, almost made it to finals in doubles if not for two straight net balls.

I think the highest it ever got that day in the venue was 5 C or barely 40 F.

Korean municpal authorities do not believe in wasting money on the heating bill when people can make their own heat from moving around. That generally works, but when not in a match, it can get downright chilly and that is why you see so many winter jackets in the venue.

Just reading this made me shiver, brrr!

Der_Echte · Jan 1, 2021

Tiny, that was one of the most memorable tourneys I ever did, especially for my freezing friends.

Korea - Div 5 City tourney Final

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