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  1. EyyT is offline
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    #1

    Just a curiosity in the wood of a blade

    Supposing there is a classic 7ply blade limba-ayous-ayous-ayous, why there is 3 layers of ayous when the manufacturer can just put a very thick layer of ayous?
    Just curious

  2. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #2
    I think, what you want is a 10mm 1 ply blade.

    If instead there was a very thick Ayous core it could be a 3 ply blade. If you take off the Limba top plies then it would be a 1 ply blade.

    So, if it had a very thick Ayous core, then it would not be a 7 ply blade.

    But, if you understand the properties of wood and why they make ply wood, then you understand, if you had a 7 ply blade, all one kind of wood, and you took a 1 ply blade that was the same kind of wood, the 7 ply and the one ply would play differently. They would feel different. The 1 ply would have more flex. But it would be more easy to break. Which is also part of why 1 ply blades are usually a lot thicker than other kinds of blades.

    There are different ways to organize the plies. But, usually, in a 5 ply blade, the grains of the outer ply are lined up vertically, the grains of the medial ply are lined up horizontally and the grain of the core is vertically. So, each layer is lined up at a 90º angle to the previous ply. This makes the blade stiffer because the change in orientation of the grain makes it harder to flex. It also makes the wood more able to handle impact, so, harder to break.

    Anyone who has owned 1 ply blades knows that they can be easy to break even when they are very thick because, sometimes, the wood just splits down the grain.

    Now, if you had a 5 ply, where the top plies grains were vertical and the core and medial plies grains were all horizontal, that blade would have more flex than the construction I described above.

    In some 7 ply blades they do this where they have the core and the closes ply to the core lined up so the grain is parallel. And sometimes they have it so that the ply closest to the top ply and the ply closest to the core are lined up so the grain is parallel. And these patterns would give different feel and flex than the orientation of the grain switching with each ply.

    But, the reason for the plies is that adding plies makes the material more durable. In other words, it is the same reason you would use ply wood for anything else as well.

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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    I think, what you want is a 10mm 1 ply blade.

    If instead there was a very thick Ayous core it could be a 3 ply blade. If you take off the Limba top plies then it would be a 1 ply blade.

    So, if it had a very thick Ayous core, then it would not be a 7 ply blade.

    But, if you understand the properties of wood and why they make ply wood, then you understand, if you had a 7 ply blade, all one kind of wood, and you took a 1 ply blade that was the same kind of wood, the 7 ply and the one ply would play differently. They would feel different. The 1 ply would have more flex. But it would be more easy to break. Which is also part of why 1 ply blades are usually a lot thicker than other kinds of blades.

    There are different ways to organize the plies. But, usually, in a 5 ply blade, the grains of the outer ply are lined up vertically, the grains of the medial ply are lined up horizontally and the grain of the core is vertically. So, each layer is lined up at a 90º angle to the previous ply. This makes the blade stiffer because the change in orientation of the grain makes it harder to flex. It also makes the wood more able to handle impact, so, harder to break.

    Anyone who has owned 1 ply blades knows that they can be easy to break even when they are very thick because, sometimes, the wood just splits down the grain.

    Now, if you had a 5 ply, where the top plies grains were vertical and the core and medial plies grains were all horizontal, that blade would have more flex than the construction I described above.

    In some 7 ply blades they do this where they have the core and the closes ply to the core lined up so the grain is parallel. And sometimes they have it so that the ply closest to the top ply and the ply closest to the core are lined up so the grain is parallel. And these patterns would give different feel and flex than the orientation of the grain switching with each ply.

    But, the reason for the plies is that adding plies makes the material more durable. In other words, it is the same reason you would use ply wood for anything else as well.
    Oh, now I know, I have been keeping this question since I learned about blade compositions, thanks carl

  4. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #4
    For your viewing pleasure; or is this for educational purposes? I forget.

    One ply blades:








    Sent from my NSA SpyPhone from Sector 13D-SR13Z74 Sub Level 29X Fort Meade, Maryland

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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    For your viewing pleasure; or is this for educational purposes? I forget.

    One ply blades:








    Sent from my NSA SpyPhone from Sector 13D-SR13Z74 Sub Level 29X Fort Meade, Maryland
    Only a sadist would get pleasure from that viewing experience...

    But there is a "cleanness" in the feedback of playing with single ply blades. Too bad they always make them so thick that they loose some of that quality in the process.

    Moderately thick 5-7-9 ply single material blades are almost as good and much more practical.

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  6. Tinykin is offline
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    #6
    I've said before that I've had one of my 1-ply blades split. On a sub subsequent check, I realised that that blade was made from an experimental wood. I have had several Darker, American Hinoki and Butterfly 1-ply blades and none have split.
    On the other hand, I have had several 'normal' blades that have either split at the handle, plies separating or serious splintering of the top ply.
    I have had to discard 2x carbon blades as they developed a rattle from either the plies or carbon becoming loose. Both were very expensive blades; a Xiom and Butterfly Viscaria.
    In my experience, this splitting of 1-ply blades is over-hyped. Players have far more problems with 'normal' blades.
    Last edited by Tinykin; 12-30-2020 at 10:32 AM.
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    #7
    what is the pros of using a 1-ply hinoki?

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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykin
    I have had several Darker, American Hinoki and Butterfly 1-ply blades and none have split.
    Same here. I have 7 1-ply blades and have never had an issue. Having said that, if you wack a 1-ply on the table, or against your leg in anger, it’ll probably break...

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Lula
    what is the pros of using a 1-ply hinoki?
    I can only answer from my personal experience.
    My previous setup was a Timo Boll T5000 with Tenergy 64. It was a very fast setup, which fit my style perfectly, with one exception... the short game. When I changed to a 1-ply Darker blade, it was much easier to control the short game, and I don’t feel like I lost much if any speed when I hit hard. So for my style of play, it’s the perfect setup.

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykin
    I've said before that I've had one of my 1-ply blades split. On a sub subsequent check, I realised that that blade was made from an experimental wood. I have had several Darker, American Hinoki and Butterfly 1-ply blades and none have split.
    On the other hand, I have had several 'normal' blades that have either split at the handle, plies separating or serious splintering of the top ply.
    I have had to discard 2x carbon blades as they developed a rattle from either the plies or carbon becoming loose. Both were very expensive blades; a Xiom and Butterfly Viscaria.
    In my experience, this splitting of 1-ply blades is over-hyped. Players have far more problems with 'normal' blades.
    Since there is some 1 ply people here, have you seen this darker blade there is only 202 of those in the world, its a limited edition made for tokyo 2020, but it isnt a common darker blade it is a 7 ply limba-ayous-very thin cnf carbon-kiri.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVyfVErlQK4
    Last edited by EyyT; 12-30-2020 at 12:20 PM.

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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by EyyT
    Since there is some 1 ply people here, have you seen this darker blade there is only 202 of those in the world
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVyfVErlQK4
    It's a fake, and a poor one at that.

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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by PushSmasher
    It's a fake, and a poor one at that.
    How do you know?

  13. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykin
    I've said before that I've had one of my 1-ply blades split. On a sub subsequent check, I realised that that blade was made from an experimental wood. I have had several Darker, American Hinoki and Butterfly 1-ply blades and none have split.
    On the other hand, I have had several 'normal' blades that have either split at the handle, plies separating or serious splintering of the top ply.
    I have had to discard 2x carbon blades as they developed a rattle from either the plies or carbon becoming loose. Both were very expensive blades; a Xiom and Butterfly Viscaria.
    In my experience, this splitting of 1-ply blades is over-hyped. Players have far more problems with 'normal' blades.
    I was just showing how a 1 ply can break in a way that multiply blades won't. Multiply makes it so that you can have a thinner blade that is more durable in the face of many kinds of stress.

    But, any wood blade can be broken in a variety of ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lula
    what is the pros of using a 1-ply hinoki?
    1 ply Hinoki blades feel amazing. A blade with fewer plies is actually faster than a blade that is the equivalent thickness and weight, made of the same wood. The one ply should also have more flex since you don't have plies with the grain lining up in opposition (ie at 90º angles). And you should have a cleaner feel since there are no plies glued together. So, if you had a 10mm 7 ply Hinoki blade and a 10mm 1 ply Hinoki blade (a pretty standard thickness for a 1 ply Hinoki blade), the 1 ply would feel dramatically better, would be faster, and have more flex so would hold the ball longer and generate more spin with the speed.

    So, for sure, there are benefits. But there are also lots of reasons why most of the world has moved on to multiply blades and there are fewer people using Single Ply blades.

    Another thing to note, most GOOD One Ply Hinoki blades, are faster than most carbon blades even though they are all wood.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 12-30-2020 at 12:36 PM.
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    #14
    This is a surprising answer to me. A couple of days ago I watched a couple of videos on youtube showing how blades are made. Already a surprise that the plies are actually very flex. They are all soft and bent, which actually kinda makes sense considering how thin they are. I can sorta understand the alignment is similar to weaving and layering is like any shock absorbing stuff.
    Last edited by Tango K; 12-30-2020 at 12:35 PM.

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by EyyT
    How do you know?
    My bad. I read in your comment "since there are 1 ply people here, have you seen this Darker blade... and then skipped to the video. In the video it's obvious that it isn't Kiso Hinoki, but you said that in your comment. I just didn't read it all. Sorry. As soon you said limited edition and Darker I jumped to the video without reading anything else. haha.

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    #16
    But in a hypotetical situation if you put a layer of glass in the top layer the ball will not spin at all, but just the rubber will spin the ball and the blade would feel super stiff and fast right?

  17. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by EyyT
    Since there is some 1 ply people here, have you seen this darker blade there is only 202 of those in the world, its a limited edition made for tokyo 2020, but it isnt a common darker blade it is a 7 ply limba-ayous-very thin cnf carbon-kiri.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVyfVErlQK4
    Quote Originally Posted by PushSmasher
    My bad. I read in your comment "since there are 1 ply people here, have you seen this Darker blade... and then skipped to the video. In the video it's obvious that it isn't Kiso Hinoki, but you said that in your comment. I just didn't read it all. Sorry. As soon you said limited edition and Darker I jumped to the video without reading anything else. haha.
    You had reason to be confused. The post you replied to is sort of like it is written by someone who seems to lose focus and has trouble staying on one topic at a time.

    Why would he ask people who use Single Ply blades about a MULTIPLY Blade (7 plies)? Note, the fact that he mentions a company that commonly makes Single Ply blades would only add to this confusion.

    It is almost like he said: "Since we have people who ride motorcycles here, what do you guys think about this special Harley Davidson potato farm?"

    hahahahaha.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyyT
    But in a hypotetical situation if you put a layer of glass in the top layer the ball will not spin at all, but just the rubber will spin the ball and the blade would feel super stiff and fast right?
    I would say, this comment falls right into that same weird category of strange scattered ideas and trying to get people to respond to posts that don't really make much sense.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 12-30-2020 at 01:05 PM.
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    I was just showing how a 1 ply can break in a way that multiply blades won't. Multiply makes it so that you can have a thinner blade that is more durable in the face of many kinds of stress.

    But, any wood blade can be broken in a variety of ways.
    No question that multiply blades are more durable than a 1-ply. Slap a 1-ply on your thigh and you'll probably be sorry. Having said that, I've dropped one a couple of times, and have been very relieved that there was no damage. But it just takes that one time...

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by PushSmasher
    No question that multiply blades are more durable than a 1-ply. Slap a 1-ply on your thigh and you'll probably be sorry. Having said that, I've dropped one a couple of times, and have been very relieved that there was no damage. But it just takes that one time...
    Well, I am glad when someone has a One Ply and it lasts and does not break. They are expensive. But, I do know a few people who were One Ply people, who had their blade split in ways that surprised them. One player had it happen while in his bag and did not realize it until, in the middle of a match in a tournament, he started noticing the racket felt really funny and thought the rubber must be coming unglued. When he took the rubber off, the blade was split in 3 pieces.

    After he had that happen 2 more times (3 Darker Speed 90s), he decided to change blades.

    I know two other people who had it happen with one blade.

    I want to be clear: The Darker Speed 90 I tried was the absolute best feeling blade I have ever tried. Nothing really comes close. I think, for ShakeHand, 10mm is too thick to play. But nothing felt anywhere near as good. So it is not how Single Ply Hinoki blades feel that has caused them to largely go out of fashion. But if you combine the cost with the relative risk of them breaking randomly, it becomes a different kind of investment than most blades.

    All that being said, you guys who have not had one split, I think that is a really good thing and I do hope that stays the case. But, for anyone who has never used a single ply blade, I think it would be negligent to not mention that a single ply blade just splitting randomly without you really knowing what the cause was, is truthfully, in the realm of possibilities.

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    #20

    Just a curiosity in the wood of a blade

    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Well, I am glad when someone has a One Ply and it lasts and does not break. They are expensive. But, I do know a few people who were One Ply people, who had their blade split in ways that surprised them. One player had it happen while in his bag and did not realize it until, in the middle of a match in a tournament, he started noticing the racket felt really funny and thought the rubber must be coming unglued. When he took the rubber off, the blade was split in 3 pieces.

    After he had that happen 2 more times (3 Darker Speed 90s), he decided to change blades.

    I know two other people who had it happen with one blade.

    I want to be clear: The Darker Speed 90 I tried was the absolute best feeling blade I have ever tried. Nothing really comes close. I think, for ShakeHand, 10mm is too thick to play. But nothing felt anywhere near as good. So it is not how Single Ply Hinoki blades feel that has caused them to largely go out of fashion. But if you combine the cost with the relative risk of them breaking randomly, it becomes a different kind of investment than most blades.

    All that being said, you guys who have not had one split, I think that is a really good thing and I do hope that stays the case. But, for anyone who has never used a single ply blade, I think it would be negligent to not mention that a single ply blade just splitting randomly without you really knowing what the cause was, is truthfully, in the realm of possibilities.
    I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say here. Before making a big investment, it’s nice to know the potential risks...

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