Editorial: It's hard to know if an equipment change actually makes you better

says toooooo much choice!!
says toooooo much choice!!
Well-Known Member
Jul 2020
1,755
1,192
4,409
Read 11 reviews
Brain and body can adapt to faster or slower equipment, whether you end up a better player is another thing!!
You get use to things.
For example, the robot I use, set it to 0.80 sec frequency and speed 26 and it’s fast!! but after a couple of minutes you adjust to the speed, maybe make a few more mistakes than usual, turn it down to speed setting 18 and it seems slower than if you had started the session at speed 18!! Less mistakes though!!

But as Yogi says equipment can and is tweaked and tailored to people’s style, standard etc THIS IS A GOOD THING.

At the end of the day there’s loads of equipment out there, too much!! and REVIEWS can really help you out!! THIS IS A GOOD THING!!!
 
This user has no status.
Manufacturers make a huge variety of subtly different kinds of rubber and blades all designed for pretty much the same kind of player. Then they, along with "experts" on forums, convince people that there is some sort of super secret rocket science (accumulated by "experience") by which every aspect of a player's technique (or technical limitations) can be perfectly matched to this finely tuned equipment. You just need to try all their stuff until you find the right COMBINATION and ONLY THEN can you reach your "full potential"; but then they will introduce a new version with 1 degree harder sponge.....

Reality is that after a period for your brain to get used to the new thing, rubber or blade, you play like you play. Yiur motor systems will adjust to this new setup. Then you will be you. Again. Switching from ALC to ZLC will have zero impact on your level.

But, let's assume it does, a little? It is after all possible and sometimes does happen. Rarely. How would you know? Objective (quantitative) measures of your overall level take a long time to accumulate.

Be skeptical!! (Also, as Brs noted, the equipment choicess that actually do have a lasting impact entail tradeoffs!!).

I come from a Tennis and Badminton background, and I can tell you with certainty, TT equipment is much more diverse regarding speed, spin etc. then any other racket sport. Yes there are many products that have similar playing characteristics, but there is also a huge spectrum to choose from based on how they play and what they are most suited for, with huge differences in how they play. As a result, although you can adapt to any piece of equipment, that doesn't mean you will play equally well with whatever you use, even after a period of adaptation.

For example, Tenergy 05 and now Dignics 09 are 2 of the most popular rubbers on the market. Despite the fact that they are very highly rated and a large percentage of pros are using them, they are a terrible choice (imo) for 'my style' of game. Can I use them in a game? Yes. But since I am principally a flat hitting smasher, they are ill suited for me, and will actually hurt my game, not help it, unless of course I completely change my strokes and strategy.
 

Brs

This user has no status.

Brs

This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2015
1,107
1,376
2,608
The best thing is to have a good friend EJ, who knows how you play and what you have tried, what you like or didn't and why. Then when you get a jones to try the new thing, he has already tried it (because of course he has) and can say 'don't bother, you won't like it.'

I am lucky to have such a friend, although I won't nlame him, and he has saved me probably close to $1000 and a lot of wasted time.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Nov 2020
1,041
751
3,901
Brain and body can adapt to faster or slower equipment, whether you end up a better player is another thing!!
You get use to things.
For example, the robot I use, set it to 0.80 sec frequency and speed 26 and it’s fast!! but after a couple of minutes you adjust to the speed, maybe make a few more mistakes than usual, turn it down to speed setting 18 and it seems slower than if you had started the session at speed 18!! Less mistakes though!!

But as Yogi says equipment can and is tweaked and tailored to people’s style, standard etc THIS IS A GOOD THING.

At the end of the day there’s loads of equipment out there, too much!! and REVIEWS can really help you out!! THIS IS A GOOD THING!!!

I agree.

The purpose of the motor system is primarily to adjust to the coming ball, not to the equipment. The more we have to allocate it for adjusting to the wrong equipment, the less we have for the ball.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jan 2020
487
316
1,244
The best thing is to have a good friend EJ, who knows how you play and what you have tried, what you like or didn't and why. Then when you get a jones to try the new thing, he has already tried it (because of course he has) and can say 'don't bother, you won't like it.'

I am lucky to have such a friend, although I won't nlame him, and he has saved me probably close to $1000 and a lot of wasted time.

Lovely twist ending :D

On the main conversation, I think somehow there is a huge confusion BETWEEN the CURE to EJs (which is, rightly, to believe that all equipments are the same, so that you can be different) AND the perceptions that all equipments are really the same since we mighty humans can all adapt to everything.

Yes it’s important to learn to adapt (e.g. less EJs - letting equipments “adapt” to you :cool: ). In the end, it’s all the feelings are about, adapting your swings into various situations, various incoming balls, various intentions. But it’s not limitless.

(I mean if somebody tells me to smash as hard as my training partners do without flying my whole body into the ball. I’m sorry I can’t, I’m just too skinny. Lin Gaoyuan smashes the same way as I do - at least in my perception :cool: - whereas Fan Zengdong smashes the way my partners do)

This is why I like the way yogi_bear always makes it obvious in his reviews’ conclusions, “intermediate to advance players who want etc. Etc.”. Sometimes it’s not the reviews but It’s the way we read them. Obviously, the reviewers are not us. (Except, say, yogi_bear is himself :cool:)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Richie and latej
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
Well-Known Member
Nov 2010
3,568
5,931
10,356
Read 8 reviews
Responding to a few:

1. Yes, TT equipment is far more diverse than tennis, and I'll take your word for it about badminton. But TT players don't explore the full range looking for the equipment miracle that makes them better. Safe to say a lot of modern offensive players in plastic ball era (for example) will try various kinds of composite blades that are all reasonably fast. A typical example I gave was a guy uses an ALC blade and buys a ZLC. Or goes from T05 to MXP and then to Dignics and then Rasanter and then...... All in the name of looking for that "tweak". They're not going to suddenly try stuff intended for defenders, or a slow or even medium all-wood.

2. Whatever possible gain they get is likely to be marginal at best and more likely unknown because of measurement issues I mentioned above. Again, it takes a long time to figure out if an equipment change of the type most commonly made by EJs actually had any effect on overall level. And if there is a change in level, ruling out other explanations (changes in practice, coaching, improved fitness etc.) that could confound things is not always easy.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Nov 2020
1,041
751
3,901
1. Yes, TT equipment is far more diverse than tennis, and I'll take your word for it about badminton. But TT players don't explore the full range looking for the equipment miracle that makes them better. Safe to say a lot of modern offensive players in plastic ball era (for example) will try various kinds of composite blades that are all reasonably fast. A typical example I gave was a guy uses an ALC blade and buys a ZLC. Or goes from T05 to MXP and then to Dignics and then Rasanter and then...... All in the name of looking for that "tweak". They're not going to suddenly try stuff intended for defenders, or a slow or even medium all-wood.

Yes, people try different blades and rubbers. But how do you know that they are doing it in the name of that "tweak", that they are looking for miracle?

I originally understood your message as saying that we should not have false expectations. We should not expect that equipment change makes some kind of over-night improvement. I think everybody agrees with you. The uncertainty for me was how many people actually have such false expectations...

2. Whatever possible gain they get is likely to be marginal at best and more likely unknown because of measurement issues I mentioned above. Again, it takes a long time to figure out if an equipment change of the type most commonly made by EJs actually had any effect on overall level. And if there is a change in level, ruling out other explanations (changes in practice, coaching, improved fitness etc.) that could confound things is not always easy.

Well, I don't want to argue how big the difference for anybody is. But let's suppose it is marginal. Then it is safe to say, that the change is also harmless. Rubbers hold only so long, at some point you need to buy new.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tango K
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
Well-Known Member
Nov 2010
3,568
5,931
10,356
Read 8 reviews
You pretty much got my main message.

A secondary message is that I suspect strongly that too frequent equipment changes can impede progress, but suspecting is not the same as knowing. Proving it either way would be really hard. As for effect on level, I've been at this for a LONG time and I see what happens to the levels of the many local EJs. My suspicions are also based on current ideas in motor learning.

Spend any time on a TT forum and you will see people looking for that equipment tweak miracle. To which I say whatever makes you happy, but the stuff does cost money.

And a lot of newer players are convinced that they need to explore lots of different equipment. And they don't. Be critical of what you read. Is it really plausible that anything could give you "more speed, more spin, and yet more control!"?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Tango K
says Hi, I am a life-long table tennis enthusiast and...
says Hi, I am a life-long table tennis enthusiast and...
Member
Mar 2014
202
119
273
There are a number of inherent biases at work but the real challenge is measurement, and on a lot of EJ (equipment junkie) threads it is just assumed that something like "my forehand loop was spinnier" or other such statements are actually true.

In fact, though this kind of statement should not be simply accepted at face value and should probably be read with a healthy skepticism.

What would someone really need to know to be sure that their overall level changed, or even one aspect of their game? Videotape matches against several different people on quite a few different days. Chart what was missed, what winners were made and how the opponent missed. Make tables. Do some kind of analysis. (Or after a sufficient time, did the rating change, or more wins in the league, or some objective measure).

But if it is just based on impressions, maybe from an hour or two of hitting around, you need to be very skeptical about any claims made or impressions you draw even if you are the one testing the new stuff. What you are reading is what it FELT like to the writer, but the person approached that with all sorts of biases, one of which is hope -- "I hope I like this one better", not to mention what they have read about it beforehand, what the manufacturer says, what pro uses it, all sorts of things. Even what you paid, maybe how well you slept the night before.

Now, bear in mind that I am talking about the kinds of equipment changes that most people are going to be making in the EJ spirit (of which we see countless threads on TT forums). Say you normally use Tenergy 05 and decide to try MXP or one of the Dignics -- or you switch from say a Viscaria to some DHS composite -- I'm not talking about something drastic, like switching from inverted to some pips or something like that. (But even then, once you learn what you can about the new equipment, you will still have all the same physical and mental limitations).

I'm guilty of all of this myself. And I should add that there are equipment choices that can make you a bit better, but it takes a long time and lots of matches to know for sure.

As someone who reviews a lot of equipment (and practices the scientific method professionally), I attempt to change as few variables as possible in order not to draw false conclusions. For example, when testing a blade, I will use my usual FH/BH rubbers, play against the same practice partner, do the same set of drills and/or matches, test the equipment over at least three sessions etc. I ask for input from practice partners (who often don't know what I am playing with). Also, I tend not to read marketing material/reviews of said piece of equipment until after forming an opinion. All in the name of not letting biases creep in.

I certainly try to convey how a piece of equipment feels to me. I'd wish, it was easier to get objective measures for spin, speed, throw angles, spin sensitivity, but absent access to high-speed cameras, robots and elaborate set-ups, "feelings" and personal observations are what we are left with. Lastly, a personal observation: My playing level, at most, varies by 100 rating points, when using different test set-ups. I find it very easy to adapt to different (high-end) material.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Nov 2020
1,041
751
3,901
A secondary message is that I suspect strongly that too frequent equipment changes can impede progress, but suspecting is not the same as knowing. Proving it either way would be really hard. As for effect on level, I've been at this for a LONG time and I see what happens to the levels of the many local EJs. My suspicions are also based on current ideas in motor learning.

Understand.

Spend any time on a TT forum and you will see people looking for that equipment tweak miracle. To which I say whatever makes you happy, but the stuff does cost money.

And a lot of newer players are convinced that they need to explore lots of different equipment. And they don't. Be critical of what you read. Is it really plausible that anything could give you "more speed, more spin, and yet more control!"?

Yes. From my own experience new players are overwhelmed by the myriads of choices. Gradually the range narrows down. Then I was thinking that when someone already changed his rubbers couple of times (within his range, as you wrote before, not drastic change), and didn't see significant change in his level, then if he is sane, he must abolish the idea of "miracle tweak" existence (if he had it in the first place at all). Hence my "objections", if it can be called so.
 
Last edited:
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
Well-Known Member
Nov 2010
3,568
5,931
10,356
Read 8 reviews
But for a lot of people who seem to inhabit forums the quest for the miracle tweak never ends.

I actually have a lot of curiosity about equipment but discovered I could satisfy it by trying clubmates setups.

One thing that I tried st a point, and which I think IS worth exploring in certain circumstances, was to see if I got on with a ST (I've used FL since I was a kid). At the time you couldn't buy a Viscaria ST except old ones for $1,000. So I tried a Donic True Carbon and a ZJK-ALC in ST.

I think some people with wrist or elbow pain might consider trying that change. It forces some grip changes that could go all the way up to your elbow. I stuck with the ST for a couple of months before deciding to switch back to FL. Why switch back? The ST never stopped feeling foreign.
 
Last edited:
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,822
13,216
30,395
Read 27 reviews
The ST never stopped feeling foreign.

In earlier years, I was pretty much like that, although I did feel my BH to FH transition was a lot better.

Recently started playing with ST handle blades, and after either taping them my way, or having Nate build the shape and size to my desired specs, I now am convinced such a ST handle blade is for me.

Sure, I could pick up same FL blade with same rubbers mid-match and soon get right back to it. Yet, now ST is the handle of my choice.
 
This user has no status.
Recently started playing with ST handle blades, and after either taping them my way, or having Nate build the shape and size to my desired specs, I now am convinced such a ST handle blade is for me.
I too changed to ST as I found that it is much easier to twiddle with than FL. Prior to this year I also always used overgrips as my hand sweats a lot. My coach encouraged me to try without the overgrip, and I was very surprised to discover that my grip was just as good, despite the sweaty hand, and it is definitely easier to twiddle without the overgrip. Win Win
 
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,822
13,216
30,395
Read 27 reviews
I too changed to ST as I found that it is much easier to twiddle with than FL. Prior to this year I also always used overgrips as my hand sweats a lot. My coach encouraged me to try without the overgrip, and I was very surprised to discover that my grip was just as good, despite the sweaty hand, and it is definitely easier to twiddle without the overgrip. Win Win

MY sweaty bear paws I got made it pretty much essential for overgrip done just right... but these recent blades from nate4s he built for me to custom specs I asked for require zero overgrip, so I have not used it in most of 2020.
 
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,822
13,216
30,395
Read 27 reviews
der echte then why is it that cnt players still play fl?just old habits or is there a science behind it in your opinion?

Hi TK,

I have about zero insight into elite Chinese TT, so I would just be running my mouth off... not that I have never run my mouth off, I do that task all the damn time...

... but still, I wouldn't know.

If I had to guess, it was for reason Number ONE.

Reason #1: BECAUSE COACH SAID SO OR ELSE !!
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Nov 2020
1,041
751
3,901
1. If what you are saying is true the a lot people can adjust to a sardius or primorac carbon with time. My former coach has used extensively tamca 5000 blades but still settled for a dhs 08 blade despite playing with a carbon blade for years. He even reached as high as 2400 us rating. So where is the brain and equipment adjustment are you talking about within the context of your arguement?
2. Yes, as an experienced coach of beginners to college level players, i can definitely say the opposite of what you are saying. I have downgraded blades that are too fast for players and produced better accuracy of shots for them compared to them using very fast equipment. If i will take your statement as fact then their topspin shots and counters will still be flying off the table. Why would i as a coach measure the success by quantitative measurements only? If as a coach i would see their shots to be more accurate and more spinny, better handling, etc, wouldn't that be enough already??

3. Since you have something against forum "experts" here which i am counted as one, how in the world will you describe an equipment when you are testing it then?

4. On higher levels of play, if a certain rubber or blade makes your feel of the game better, why not??

5. Equipment combinations are endless due to the number of brands and products but there are always safe setups a playwr can try. Which would you choose for a player who has no access to an equipment to try - chose a safe setup that was suggested or just buy an equipment on what he wants with nomprior knowledge?

6. "Equipment reviews are biased, no negative thoughts" - i have heard of this crap a lot but in my opinion people who think of this way are the ones biases themselves. If a certain equipment is not letting you perform optimally, you dismiss it as garbage then another person likes it and keeps it, aren't you the one who is biased? You can say it wasn't right for you but is it a bad equipment? Hell no! Again, that dismisses your theory that every equipment can just be adjusted. I cannot imagine all those people who loves tenergy 05 and then will use DHS H3 unboosted (since this is the natural state of the rubber). Sure give them time to adjust but are you sure they would not want to go back tonuse tenergy 05??

6. You actually dismissed the importance of comfort and feel of using an equipment because according to you and science the motor part of the brain will just let you adjust properly.

I agree with all the points individually as stated, and it's good to read because it confirms for me what I think too. Except the point 3. You are not counted as forum "expert".

But still somehow the feeling remains that you have interpreted what Baal said not in the way he meant it.
 
Manufacturers make a huge variety of subtly different kinds of rubber and blades all designed for pretty much the same kind of player. Then they, along with "experts" on forums, convince people that there is some sort of super secret rocket science (accumulated by "experience") by which every aspect of a player's technique (or technical limitations) can be perfectly matched to this finely tuned equipment. You just need to try all their stuff until you find the right COMBINATION and ONLY THEN can you reach your "full potential"; but then they will introduce a new version with 1 degree harder sponge.....

Reality is that after a period for your brain to get used to the new thing, rubber or blade, you play like you play. Yiur motor systems will adjust to this new setup. Then you will be you. Again. Switching from ALC to ZLC will have zero impact on your level.

But, let's assume it does, a little? It is after all possible and sometimes does happen. Rarely. How would you know? Objective (quantitative) measures of your overall level take a long time to accumulate.

Be skeptical!! (Also, as Brs noted, the equipment choicess that actually do have a lasting impact entail tradeoffs!!).

I agree with all the points individually as stated, and it's good to read because it confirms for me what I think too. Except the point 3. You are not counted as forum "expert".

But still somehow the feeling remains that you have interpreted what Baal said not in the way he meant it.

You should protest with Dan and remove the "Equipment Expert" tagged in my username then.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Nov 2020
1,041
751
3,901
Popcorn is a cookin' and gettin' HOT !!!

:)

I think it is of enormous importance if someone tries almost all the rubbers on the world. That someone then develops the "bigger picture", and can relate the rubbers to each other from experience. It is useful for the others who inevitably see only a small part of the elephant. When that someone then says it differs so and so, we can at least have some meaningful information. Because, as Baal said, there are business forces which push manufacturers to not say really meaningful things. And that someone is not "expert".
 
Top