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  1. Der_Echte is offline
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    #1

    2 Korean Natl Div 1 Level Players BH Blast Battle - ZERO Short Serves

    HI TTD,

    Here is a vid form a National Level TT Tourney way down in GooMi Korea...

    Macho Man Korean Dude (Big power is not enough power) vs the typical Korean top level female play style (Punch everything and damn the spin)

    Neither of these players are even remotely interested in serving short... they both want a long serve to get a ball without heavy spin and want to bang away like gang-busters.

    Dude looks like he wants to show the crowd his way abover average BH topspin, that actually has topspin. Dude just wan'ts to bang fast BH Loops with decent spin, but almost always right at her BH (cross table is safer to land ball, but vs her, is that safe?). Dude sticking to his story like kid caught with the candy. Dude playing kinda arrogant and not making ajustments. Later in match, some wireless radio signal penetrated the 2nd layer of hiz thick skull and he started to fish/lob and try to get into FH to FH open rallies (which the lady can prety much only bang it if high or play soft if ball is low - she has not real FH Loop for a rally)

    Lady is very precise, has a simple game plan, and keps faith. She serves long deep into BH corner, INVITES dude to open up big to her BH, and she hammer punches the loop... sometimes there is a few BH each, but dude is clearly not having an advantage in these kinds of rallies. He isn't as consistent as the lady in those, even if he packs more spin into his fast loop vs her fast BH punch shot.

    The key to defeating this lady is SLOW, HEAVY TOPSPIN. Problem is, she doesn't really give him much a chance with those kinds of serves... maybe dude could have choped those with enough spin low enough to discourage her flat hit.. that might have given him more chances on her serve to open heavy and slow. He also could have stepped around BH corner to use his FH and slow it down... A Div 1 natl player usually has the footwork, but he is content to try to abng it out with her.

    Sometimes his power wins, sometimes it gets him in trouble. One other adjustment he got right is to punch it (or even hit is soft and low enough) suddenly down FH line and make her use a FH... she had no real spinny loop to write home about... so she makes a mistake, or gives an easier ball to him, or the rally is now just FH to FH... which dude is a WAY better position to win the point. Dude chos-off like he is in the club playing for beer and chickens.

    I really cannot get over 2 each Div 1 Natl level players in hte QUARTER FINALS of a Natl Tourney not using a short serve... even 1/10 the time to make their deep serves effective.

    I played vs many skilled lady players of this style in Korea... you slow the ball down and make it heavy and they are handcuffed. You serve well (Thank you for a good heavy underspin short and deep with the knuckle bal mixed in for LULZ) and make your attack from close to table you are in command. This dude played brain dead most of match and you gotta watch it to the end to see if testosterone or another hormone prevailed in the 5th set.

    The guy has an advanced BH many Korean amateur players do not have and I was surprised to see only Div 4 serves. (Almost NO ONE in Div 4 can serve short even if you offered free chicken for a year) This Lady's BH punch is outstanding for both consistency, placement, and trouble to opponent. Much higher BH than most Div 1 natl level players.

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    #2
    thats a tournament atmosphere I would have enjoyed to play in - Devil take the hindmost all the way!
    BTW the lady does serve short to fh some of the time. Her bh is a joy to watch.\
    Thanks for sharing
    ppp

    bh
    spinpips chop2
    yinhe ayous wood 1 ply
    fh
    max moristo sp

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    #3
    Just about all Korean tourneys look and feel like that, largest one i went to had 400 plus dudes just in Div 4 natl .. maybe1500 plus total tourney took 4 days. .

    Usually tourneys are 1 or 2 days.

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    #4
    2 first games I thought she was to loose due to her lack of power on the FH side (like many women), the guy was constantly doing down the line strokes.

    And then... crazy FH counters at the begining of the 3rd game ! she pushed the "footwork" button like on the playstation joystick really entertaining match, she's got way more fundamentals than the guy for sure ! but still ... her FH loops starters are a bit weak

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    #5
    As I commented, she doesn't have a FH loop to write home about... and any tactically intelligent player would look to match their strength against that and bet the match on it.That is why I said dude played brain dead.

    Despite having no rally fh loop, but a consistent low spin well placed opener... this lady made it to the semi finals of a big Korean National level tourney in MENS DIV 1... that means a certificate... which in a club, an open div 1 cert means coach or club must be real good.

    I cannot correctly describe how difficult it is just to advance out of group and even win one match past that... in Div Freeking One. In a natl tourney with double digit ringers in each division.

    Despite the complete absence of a very needed to have stroke, a skinny fh loop, this lady still made it happen. Shows what good skills in enough required areas played just right, a good game plan, footwork and determination can do in a match.

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    #6
    We say... get into fh to fh loops... but her serve is not so easy to safely spin enough and low enough to get into loop vs loop. You leave it a bit high and BANG !! BOOM goes the dynamite as she cracks a fh hit. Even Div 4 ladies pack a powerful fh hit in Korea.

    The only safe way was to get into fh to fh and block or punch down fh line... she showed that by the time she got to ball, it was low enough to discourage her from hitting.

    Dude seemed to realize this somewhat, because we see him do that more often I think he was just too juiced and cock as he had a great bh himself, but that never really gave him a decisive advantage. He should have realized that by point 6 offers match.

    He could have also brought her to wide fh then wide bh, where on the move, she would have been less powerful and consistent and maybeenticed to try to crack low percentage winners. Still, the risk in that is the first ball to her fh.. it better be low or sudden enough for the ball to drop, because she could crack those fh hits.

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Music&Ping
    really entertaining match, she's got way more fundamentals than the guy for sure ! but still ... her FH loops starters are a bit weak
    Yeah, her opening loop was not very spinny or strong looking... but vs this dude, she landed what seemed like 95% of them... and NEARLY EVERY TIME dude could not make a finishing shot to win point vs that "weak" opening topspin... so that "weak" topspin isn't exactly a liability in that match... actually, that shot led to rallies in her favor.

    What I thought was a weak area on her was her FH to FH topspin in open play when she got forced off the table a little... she certainly did not have the advantage in many of those rallies... but despite that, she still found a way to keep the rally slanted towards her stengths and the opponent went right along with it for the most part.
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    #8
    obviously she's playing with pips on the forehand... did no one catch that?

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    #9
    Here are the two best shots I can get of the FH rubber black color...

    Name:  BL FH (2).JPG
Views: 124
Size:  43.6 KB

    Name:  SP FH2.JPG
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Size:  15.9 KB

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    #10
    Bottom pic when you zoom in at the very bottom the black rubber, looks like the smooth portion on the bottom of a sheet of SP, but it is inconclusive. The hand is in the way of most of the rubber, but the bottom pic does look like it could be SP.

    BTW, I have never seen a lady player in Korea use SP FH and inverted BH... usually the other way... but you never know.

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    #11
    Exactly yes ! didn't see it at first sight that she was only lifting up on FH, hence that slow ball starter. She's playing kinda Falck like then: closed to the table with maximum pressure put on the opponent.

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    #12
    We all said the FH topspin was not a strength... and at THIS high of a level, one would think you simply COULD NOT compete at this level without a reliable, varied and strong FH topspin.

    This just goes to show you what you can do if you play a good tactical game to avoid weaknesses and funnel opponent into bonehead plays or into your strengths.

    Even if the tospin is not strong, just look at how difficult a time that dude has attacking it !! And that dude is 2300+ USATT !! So that is an easy to see sign of a quality opener. Quality does not always mean pressure by strong spim, speed, or both.

    She pressured him on that "weak" opener, because dude KNEW if he didn't make a strong attack or keep it slow enough and low enough to her FH that she would MURDER his return if it went to BH...

    She also pressured him to DARE him to attack... and a slower, low ball with an difficut to discern and unknown amount of topspin is SURPRISINGLY LOW PERCENTAGE if you try to strongly attack it.

    The older, wiser Div 1 mens attacking players use such a shot if they get caught too far back against a softer block... ball comes too slow to rebound deep enough for them to take a step and atack, so they step in some to match height of ball at a 1.5 or two feet above floor (but opponent cannot see the impact) and do a varying amount of soft slow tospin very low over net and very low bouncing... the timing to attack this ball can be very tough if you did not read the ball right... so opponent often makes 4 attacks and misses 3 or all 4... and is now very wary... so often will play a very soft and safe return... now the Div 1 mens player has recovered position and knows the cadence of this return very well and immediately POUNCES on this ball with a strong attack. Time and time again that shot gets him back in the point when caught too far back.

    This lady is actually giving Div 1 men some of their own medicine with that slow, light and low topspin opener.

    On one level, that ball really isn't very difficult to pull cross court with a fast loop or heavy medium or slow loop... but Div 1 men do not see this ball as an opener so much and it really wrecks their timing and cadence and perception of what is to happen.

    At that level (Natl Div 1) you fail to attack... opponent WILL attack and have immediate advantage. That really puts pressure on the "Safe" return... so much pressure that opponent even makes errors trying to play the perfect safe ball.
    Last edited by Der_Echte; 01-08-2021 at 01:27 AM.
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Bottom pic when you zoom in at the very bottom the black rubber, looks like the smooth portion on the bottom of a sheet of SP, but it is inconclusive. The hand is in the way of most of the rubber, but the bottom pic does look like it could be SP.

    BTW, I have never seen a lady player in Korea use SP FH and inverted BH... usually the other way... but you never know.
    From the sound of the hit I'd also say she plays short-pips on FH. Also, when serving she uses red, and when smashing, she rotates and plays FH with red rubber.

    He didn't seem too confident with his FH. When he managed to make heavier spin, she sometimes failed to block. But when his topspin was not that heavy or slower, she managed to block nice and slow and he couldn't quite add pressure. Or when she blocked longer, he attempted monstrous FH hit, which landed behind. He takes the FH too late and is not low enough, imo. Her stance and movement is much better.

    Good atmosphere there. Some funny points like edge or double happiness followed by big celebration :-) And of course the guy violated rule nr. 85, so unfortunately for him the match was decided even before it started.

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    #14
    latej, you make the criticisms truely and and how you see it, a random person not knowing the levels would think due is kinda low level (he is compared to pro), but to get to the Quarter-Finals in Div 1 of a National level tourney in Korea means the guy is elite for that division and no slouch overall. There are SO MANY RINGERS in divisions, mostly Div 4 and 3... but there are still some in Div 1. You ALWAYS have to play a few levels above normal level to make round of 8 or semis in a tourney like this. The fields are too loaded.

    I laid out the many reasons why the guy failed and where despite being weaker in some key area, the lady did what she needed to do for a deserved win and why her quality was actually higher than it looked.

    I agree with your analysis, she had better fundamentals of footwork and simplicity/discipline of gameplan and executed that well to cover a FH weakness in open rallies, even if she could get to a ball easily enough.

    You would need a vacation to Korea yourself and experience it personal, especially if you are a TT club member and go on a mission to these tourneys... it is better than a rock concert and so inexpensive. In regional tourneys, I preferred to bring a 24 pk of beers and drink with the enemy Korean coaches before their players matches to juice them up to increace our players' chances... older Korean dudes rarely turn down cold beers delivered to where they are when they are thirsty... and they are often very thirsty.
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    #15
    Even if the tospin is not strong, just look at how difficult a time that dude has attacking it !! And that dude is 2300+ USATT !! So that is an easy to see sign of a quality opener. Quality does not always mean pressure by strong spim, speed, or both.

    A 2300 USATT isn't a National or Pro level here in France, it's less than 2000 here and they only play Regionale 1 (Pro A - Pro B - Nationale 1 - Nationale 2 - Pre-Nationale - Regionale 1). I guess that would be even harder in Korea as the general level is higher than France.

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    #16
    He didn't seem too confident with his FH.
    More so than overall effectiveness of his FH in that match, I would say he was VERY not too confident to step around his BH corner to use his Div 1 level FH strong topspin shot... I REALLY DOUBT that it is because he is weak at that task... ALL DIV 1 National level players have a MASSIVE FH step around attack... I really doubt it is because he did not have that tool.

    I think it was more because of that lady's serves... on vid they look pretty easy to finish at that level... and they ARE, but ONLY IF you read the ball right and have the confidence and ability to do that.

    I think that lady plumb discouraged that dude from killing her long deep serve to BH corner... beacuse those serves were actually more varied and difficult to read than it looked on video. Serving well enough to discourage a strong Div 1 Natl player from attacking is a skill that nearly zero Korean amateur TT players develop... Coaches only teach so much... generall, when players get to Div 1 City level (Div 4 or Div 3 natl level) they start figuring it out on their own.

    I entered a city of .5 Million that have a dozen plus clubs with 100+ memebrs each... and as a recreational player who never took lessons before, I had serves that were top 10% of the city right away, because all I did for 3-5 min a day for a year in an Iraq camp was practice serves 3 min a day... it was enough to greatly improves... and as a city Div 4 player starting out, that gave me a large advantage in matches.

    That is a testimony to how weak amateur TT (non-school - I am talking ust amateur clubs) can be over there, despite ex-pros being the head coach of a TT club in 60%+ of clubs. Koreans LOVE TT, some OK participation rates, and MANY take lessons from pro coach 2-3x a week 20 min each lesson... and do this for years... and only 20% of players make city Div 3 or higher which is an OK level maybe 1700-1800 USATT that still has so many serious flaws in game play.

    All that doesn't matter... at the end of the day, you can really get to enjoy TT action EVERY DAMN DAY at whatever level you want, have a blast, do tourneys every month in cty, region, natl level or at just the club, and also do challenge matches.

    One favorite thing Korean guys do is Man_won BBANG. You get 6 players, each kicks in $10 to teh prize pot, all play a round robin... Place one gets ALL the cash pot... everyone else gets Zero... or BBANG in Korean slang.

    Those same 6 players may also do a round robin to see who pays for the post-tt chicken and beer. Place 1 pays zero, place 2 $5, place 3 $10, place 4 $15, place 5 $25 place 6 gets stuck with $30... then everyone goes out for chicken and beer... there is ALWAYS a nearby place... and at the end of the night, there needs to be ANOTHER clooection of money to settle the food/drink tab.

    The round robin to determine the financial contribution obviosuly motivates all to play at MAX effort... this is ALWAYS more lively than a real tourney match... there is more at stake.
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    You would need a vacation to Korea yourself and experience it personal, especially if you are a TT club member and go on a mission to these tourneys... it is better than a rock concert and so inexpensive. In regional tourneys, I preferred to bring a 24 pk of beers and drink with the enemy Korean coaches before their players matches to juice them up to increace our players' chances... older Korean dudes rarely turn down cold beers delivered to where they are when they are thirsty... and they are often very thirsty.


    Poor guys, I read they have lower tolerance against alcohol. When I drank with guys in VN they looked at me as hero, and I am very sub-standard in "czech" measures. Vacation there would be cool.

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Music&Ping
    Even if the tospin is not strong, just look at how difficult a time that dude has attacking it !! And that dude is 2300+ USATT !! So that is an easy to see sign of a quality opener. Quality does not always mean pressure by strong spim, speed, or both.

    A 2300 USATT isn't a National or Pro level here in France, it's less than 2000 here and they only play Regionale 1 (Pro A - Pro B - Nationale 1 - Nationale 2 - Pre-Nationale - Regionale 1). I guess that would be even harder in Korea as the general level is higher than France.
    Yup, a 2300 level playeris not an elite amateur in USA either, and especially in just about any nation in Europe... but the difference is these are all players without training as a kid from a pro coach... Koreans DO NOT let these pro-trained players play in amateur TT except only in a PRO division of a large national tourney.

    That PRO division is more like the level you are accustomed to seeing with 2500+ guys for starters to actual ex-pros who still want to play a little... You still see vids of Kim Jung Hoon playing pro div in some natl tourneys... he he is clearly better in retirement than the others in pro division who are still young and didn't quite make the national team or a semi-pro city team. (They have those and ave player is 2600+ which is also a level you are accustmed to seeing in a div or two just below pro)

    Still, 2300 USATT level in Korean amateur level would make you a top 5 player in the city where I played. That is a very good level that very few make over there without very long training at a young age. Thy basically did that starting out as an adult, that is tough.
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by latej


    Poor guys, I read they have lower tolerance against alcohol. When I drank with guys in VN they looked at me as hero, and I am very sub-standard in "czech" measures. Vacation there would be cool.
    Well, there is ALWAYS one way to EMPERICALLY TEST your theory...

    You may find that if you restrict the drinking to beers, Koreans will be valiant and enjoy the drinks, but compared to a German, especially from the south where they drink beer like water, because the water in the south from the sink will kill you... well then such a European would not be severely tested. They would laugh at most Koreans "tapping out" before you are even halfway done.

    However, if you try to drink their preferred drink of SOJU (a fermented potato drink 15-20% alc) then you had better be a well seasoned Soju Warrior... because you will drink the first bottle or two, get up to piss, and fall flat on your face... all the while you are on the floor all passed out in proneposition, they are finishing their 4th bottle and are not even halfway there. That stuff will affect your brain and if you are not prepared for it, then that stuff will get you good. Obviously, I leave that stuff strictly alone. It just isn't for me... which is good, as there is more for the others to drink and enjoy.
    Last edited by Der_Echte; 01-08-2021 at 11:34 AM.
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    #20
    The story of an ancient viliage in Germany, Rothenburg (ob der Tauber) is that some dude leading a force of men overpowered everyone near there, and when they got to the town, they made a deal witht he locals... they heard how they chug the beers... so dude said he would spare the town if someone could drink the really large steil presented to him (I think it was 3 liters+ !!) (and it might not have been beer, but ber sounds good, ja?)

    So the mayor stepped up and drank the whole thing in one drink continuously... so dude did not burn the villiage to the ground. There is some tower in that villiage and every hour or two, there is a kind of Koo-Koo clock kinda thing happeneing that depicts all this.
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